[navydevildoc]

This is kind of disturbing... first the background, this article is from the Salt Lake Tribune:

http://prorev.com/2005/08/utah-polic...nt-raid-on.htm

OK, so there was a rave. Yes, there are drugs there. Sure, they need to be broken up. Now, watch the video of how it was handled:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zO_Sg9Kp588



Storm trooper raid, complete with black helicopter and teargas.

My question is, could this have been handled differently?

[BDA116]

Wow, that happened over a year ago and there were plenty of investigations that cleared them from any wrongdoing.

[abtech]

You obviously weren't around in the sixties. This was tame compared to an average bust back then . . .

[luvtolean]

Pretty gnarly way to break up a rave...but I don't know much about these kind of things...so I'll withhold judgement.

The two people in the dirt...who knows what they said or did, they might well have deserved it.

Hey it's Utah, they gotta burn the jet fuel in the budget and try out their tacticool gear somehow.

[navydevildoc]

Originally Posted by BDA116

Wow, that happened over a year ago and there were plenty of investigations that cleared them from any wrongdoing.

Really? Every article I can find on it speaks of pretty harsh treatment.

Here is a salon article that goes over it pretty well.

Stark raving mad - Salon

I especially like the part where the sheriff responds to people'e complaints that they had M-16s pointed directly at them by saying:

They must be mistaken, we don't have M-16s.

Yet the video clearly shows many of the troops carrying M-16s. Of course maybe they are some derivitive so technically they are not M-16s, but come on. That comment alone tells me that the police are not being honest about what happened.

I can't find any articles that talk about an investigation, other than "County Officials" reviewed the case. When you have witness after witness going on about the excessive force used by the police, I find it hard to believe that they are 100% innocent here.

Still, my original question stands, could this have been handled differently?

Having had several excessively large parties at one of my old houses, I can tell you we ended several by simply stopping the music, and telling everyone it was time to go home. Even the guys who were completely snookered were gone after 10 minutes.

[asiliat]

I'm going out on a limb and support the cops on this one. They had to show force because they were probably quite outnumbered. Didn't you watch A Bug's Life?

By busting up a few in the crowd, it probably made everyone else a little scared to fight back. Last thing anyone wanted was a full scale riot.

As for the firearms they chose, the media (and even sometimes on this board) makes me believe that everyone and their little nephew has a C&C license with a big handgun in a holster, so.... Seeing "machine guns" doesn't really surprise me. I think security forces in HK airport have submachine guns or something. (I don't know much about firearms, sorry.)

[abtech]

Originally Posted by asiliat

I'm going out on a limb and support the cops on this one. They had to show force because they were probably quite outnumbered. Didn't you watch A Bug's Life?

By busting up a few in the crowd, it probably made everyone else a little scared to fight back. Last thing anyone wanted was a full scale riot.

As for the firearms they chose, the media (and even sometimes on this board) makes me believe that everyone and their little nephew has a C&C license with a big handgun in a holster, so.... Seeing "machine guns" doesn't really surprise me. I think security forces in HK airport have submachine guns or something. (I don't know much about firearms, sorry.)

Don't you know that crack/coke dealers never carry firearms? It's the unwritten rule . . .

[deez]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

Pretty gnarly way to break up a rave...but I don't know much about these kind of things...so I'll withhold judgement.

I played at them for a little over 10 years. I played in many states but never in Utah, thank God. I've seen a lot over that time but never have I come close to what those kids went through that night.

What do you expect in that state? It has one mentality, and really isn't culturually diverse.

As far as the enforcers that showed up...wow! Pretty extreme for some kids just wanting to party and dance. Do you really believe everything that article said in regards to the cops version? The cops are always going to paint the picture worse than it really was. From reading that article you'd think that it was a total drug party. When you come back to reality, it was more than likely a very small minority engaged in this behavior. The cops will paint the worst picture they can in regards to these parties to defend themselves. Tear gas, etc? Punk ass cops IMHO, it wasn't a violent protest at some government function.

What is funny is the promoter could have avoided all this if he would have hired a couple of cops to work the front door. This is what we always did when we threw our events. If you can't find a couple of reputable cops to work off duty at your event, then don't throw it. Many people think that all cops are honest and do the right thing. They do so much illegal **** from coast to coast that it's ridiculous.

[BDA116]

There were no black helos involved, no need to keep sensationalizing crap.
The facts are that everything they did was legal, the rave organizers went about everything illegally, including a use permit.
Then there are the facts that the organizers had security using night vision and semi-auto rifles, and the fact that there were multiple known drug dealers tipped to be in attendance, one of which was wanted for firearms warrants and known for assaults on individuals including officers.
But of course the whine-ass papers like the trib never report on that kind of crap.
This wasn't just some kids wanting to dance, it was very covert on the organizers part with just as much covertness from law enforcement waiting for it to go down.
Right after it happened every druggie loser and cop hater came out whining about it, as did more tha one of those videos you posted that were edited to make it appear far worse than it was. Stories were exaggerated by the druggie-raver-losers and investigations proved that.
Facts are, the whole race scene is for morons in the first place, it wasn't organized or ran legally and they knowingly harbored violent and wanted people and deployed their own security with SWAT-type tactics.
The LEOs HAD to go in with the element of surprise and SWAT teams.
Again, over a year old and it has been proven to be a non-event.

[navydevildoc]

Originally Posted by BDA116

But of course the whine-ass papers like the trib never report on that kind of crap.

I gotta call the punk card on that one. I have had very personal involement with the SLC Trib. They were nothing but first rate, and the stories they wrote were spot on. The reporters were by far the most courteous of the whole gaggle of press we were dealing with.

[BDA116]

Don't know when that was, but they have inflated stories in their rag all the time.
I also have a pal that has tried more than once to get articles submitted to them only to be turned away for one lame reason or the other.
They are know for being the news choice for libs in the State. Their editorial pages are always more antagonistic than any other, and their stories on groups and politicos are very one sided.
Then again, I'm not a big fan of very many newspapers. But the trib is by far the worst local one available.

[Johnny Diablo]

Originally Posted by deez

As far as the enforcers that showed up...wow! Pretty extreme for some kids just wanting to party and dance.

[dattaway]

A good writeup of raves and the health issues from our own Department of Justice:

Raves - An NDIC Information Bulletin

[navydevildoc]

Originally Posted by BDA116

Don't know when that was, but they have inflated stories in their rag all the time.
I also have a pal that has tried more than once to get articles submitted to them only to be turned away for one lame reason or the other.
They are know for being the news choice for libs in the State. Their editorial pages are always more antagonistic than any other, and their stories on groups and politicos are very one sided.
Then again, I'm not a big fan of very many newspapers. But the trib is by far the worst local one available.

It was 2 years ago, August 2004.

I don't know about other times, but after looking at the national coverage being given, and the professionalism of the press staff, the Trib as well as Marco Ortiz at Channel 4 were by far the best out of the group. They got the story right, didn't sensationalize, and treated everyone involved with respect. When the media started to wane away from the story, both the Trib and Channel 4 stayed around.

[asiliat]

Originally Posted by abtech

Don't you know that crack/coke dealers never carry firearms? It's the unwritten rule . . .

Well see, that's the thing right there, a "proper" rave would not have tolerated those kinds of drugs. I mean, estacy should have been enough to get everyone lovey dovey, no? What kind of gunz do estacy pushers carry is the question.

[sheepofblue]

Originally Posted by BDA116

There were no black helos involved, no need to keep sensationalizing crap.
The facts are that everything they did was legal, the rave organizers went about everything illegally, including a use permit.
Then there are the facts that the organizers had security using night vision and semi-auto rifles, and the fact that there were multiple known drug dealers tipped to be in attendance, one of which was wanted for firearms warrants and known for assaults on individuals including officers.
But of course the whine-ass papers like the trib never report on that kind of crap.
This wasn't just some kids wanting to dance, it was very covert on the organizers part with just as much covertness from law enforcement waiting for it to go down.
Right after it happened every druggie loser and cop hater came out whining about it, as did more tha one of those videos you posted that were edited to make it appear far worse than it was. Stories were exaggerated by the druggie-raver-losers and investigations proved that.
Facts are, the whole race scene is for morons in the first place, it wasn't organized or ran legally and they knowingly harbored violent and wanted people and deployed their own security with SWAT-type tactics.
The LEOs HAD to go in with the element of surprise and SWAT teams.
Again, over a year old and it has been proven to be a non-event.

That one item says the cops acted properly. Of course for those that don't think so, you walk into an large group where some are armed and with night vision in the middle of the night with 38. Personally such a stupid act would break my pelt protection policy and I would go in armed up like the police did.

[QuikMike]

Originally Posted by deez

I played at them for a little over 10 years. I played in many states but never in Utah, thank God. I've seen a lot over that time but never have I come close to what those kids went through that night.

What do you expect in that state? It has one mentality, and really isn't culturually diverse.

As far as the enforcers that showed up...wow! Pretty extreme for some kids just wanting to party and dance. Do you really believe everything that article said in regards to the cops version? The cops are always going to paint the picture worse than it really was. From reading that article you'd think that it was a total drug party. When you come back to reality, it was more than likely a very small minority engaged in this behavior. The cops will paint the worst picture they can in regards to these parties to defend themselves. Tear gas, etc? Punk ass cops IMHO, it wasn't a violent protest at some government function.

What is funny is the promoter could have avoided all this if he would have hired a couple of cops to work the front door. This is what we always did when we threw our events. If you can't find a couple of reputable cops to work off duty at your event, then don't throw it. Many people think that all cops are honest and do the right thing. They do so much illegal **** from coast to coast that it's ridiculous.

I have to agree with deez on the piece about the coppers....My eyes were opened a lot this past weekend after talking with a good trooper friend of mines about some of the dirt they do...you wouldn't believe some of the stuff these guys pull....

[Scout]

Originally Posted by QuikMike

I have to agree with deez on the piece about the coppers....My eyes were opened a lot this past weekend after talking with a good trooper friend of mines about some of the dirt they do...you wouldn't believe some of the stuff these guys pull....

What are you talking about "MEOW"?



Anyway, back to the clip - anything can look bad if taken out of context. If there was intel of weapons or armed dealers at this event, the police went in severely underpowered.

[luvtolean]

Yeah, it just doesn't seem like the whole story is there on the tape.

[abtech]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

Yeah, it just doesn't seem like the whole story is there on the tape.

Nope . . . Why would you want to get anything that didn't support your position on tape?

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by abtech

Nope . . . Why would you want to get anything that didn't support your position on tape?

I think the cops letting that camera run speaks volumes...

[nedro]

After seeing the tape, It leaves me wondering what all the fuss is about. I've seen more violence when San Jose Cops would break-up one of our little drag race seasions out on Ringwood.
As for the two on the ground getting roughed up, I absolutely believe that they started talking to, or even questioning the Officers in the raid.

Look you dumbasses!
When the cops show up, ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS WALK IN THE OPPOSITE DIRRECTION STRAIGHT TO YOUR VEHICAL AND LEAVE IN AN ORDERLY FASHON!!!!!
Like at the old drag races, the ones that don't, end up at the wrong end of the listening stick!

I always had 1 rule to follow if you go with me to the races;
1) When the cops show up, be at my car when I get there. Because I will get inside turn the key and head off into the night without giving a second thought to my passengers.