[nedro]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

Nedro, and this is not a reference to me, never underestimate your enemy.

This will come back and bite us in the ass.

He has several other levers to pull as well...water is always a good one.

The only thing I found on the subject is this.
COLORADO RIVER CASE
Looks like we are the ones giving out the good water. What major river besides the Nile runs North?

[Johnny Diablo]

Based on results... I dont think the US gets bit in the ass much with Mexico..

The treaty of Gadalupe Hidalgo stipulates for protections and policing that didnt really happen.

The Border | Interactive Timeline

[Mojave954]

Originally Posted by nedro

The only thing I found on the subject is this.
COLORADO RIVER CASE
Looks like we are the ones giving out the good water. What major river besides the Nile runs North?

Keep it up we will build another dam. Army Corp of Engineers won't mind. Re-enact the TVA!

[leelover]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

Mexico has started this well.

, I don't approve of what The Mexican Pres. is doing, but he is very cunning. France, and to a lesser extent, all of Europe do not "approve" of us. He will gain more sympathy there than you might think. Even though his cause is ridiculuos.

[seamus]

Originally Posted by sheepofblue

...I only blame the Mexican president for not curing the REAL problems and making the need for a fence moot...

You focus the blame in the wrong direction. People go where the comfort is. In the case of Central America, the money, food, and health care is here. The reason they don't continue on into Canada is because they don't have to. Once they're here, life is comfortable and their needs are taken care of.

The need for a fence IS a moot point. It's a bandaid on a severed artery. It's cough medicine for pneumonia. If you had a child who kept taking cookies off your dining room table, you wouldn't spend a thousand dollars making the table taller. You'd remove the stimulus. If the illegals coming into this country couldn't get jobs, health care and an instantly better life, they'd stop coming. Enforce the laws already in place and develop an effective guest worker program and this will become yesterday's news.

[leelover]

Originally Posted by Johnny Diablo

Based on results... I dont think the US gets bit in the ass much with Mexico..

The treaty of Gadalupe Hidalgo stipulates for protections and policing that didnt really happen.

The Border | Interactive Timeline

The border timeline is very interesting.
Interesting also that Cinco de Mayo is a celebration of independance from what country?

[Mojave954]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

Do you realize what kind of money we're talking about here?

Mexican workers in the US is the second largest foreign revenue stream in Mexico, only their exported oil brings in more money.

This fence is not in the best interest of Mexico, and lobbying world opinion, starting in FRANCE, against the US for it, is a VERY smart move.

You can disagree with him, but IMO, this is a good move for Mexico, and well played on a diplomatic basis. It is a long way from stupid...

WHo cares if this is a good thing for mexico? I am not concerned with mexico, I am concerned with AMERICA. They are playing the poor little weak kid getting beat up by the big bully. Ain't gonna fly. Take your people back and fix your economy stupid.

[luvtolean]

People are calling him stupid. My point is he isn't.

Who cares? We'll see...

It is a freaking waste of time though. A fence? Whatever...

Go read Seamus' post, he effectively addresses why it's a total waste of time.

[leelover]

Originally Posted by Mojave954

Take your people back and fix your economy stupid.

Good idea, but this stuff require's work and loss of revenue. Corrupt gov's don't like that stuff much.

[Mojave954]

Originally Posted by leelover

Good idea, but this stuff require's work and loss of revenue. Corrupt gov's don't like that stuff much.

True dat. Just easier to encourage your people to leave and allow them to become someone else's problem. I can see his ways... he will sing the plight of his people and then when Mexico ends up with no one it, oh yeah that will be our fault as well for luring them over here with a better quality of life and not assisting the Mexican gov't in fixing their economy. U.S. need to go back to not giving a flying f*ck about what the world thinks about us. Touchy/feely crap is for the birds... "ohhhhh (insert country here) doesn't like us. What can we do to get them to like us?" Just rubs me raw how the only friggin super-power cowers down like this. Had Russia been the last super-power there would be tanks rolling. Hmmmmm.....????

[leelover]

true about the Russian tanks, but America has different standards.

[sheepofblue]

Originally Posted by seamus

You focus the blame in the wrong direction. People go where the comfort is. In the case of Central America, the money, food, and health care is here. The reason they don't continue on into Canada is because they don't have to. Once they're here, life is comfortable and their needs are taken care of.

The need for a fence IS a moot point. It's a bandaid on a severed artery. It's cough medicine for pneumonia. If you had a child who kept taking cookies off your dining room table, you wouldn't spend a thousand dollars making the table taller. You'd remove the stimulus. If the illegals coming into this country couldn't get jobs, health care and an instantly better life, they'd stop coming. Enforce the laws already in place and develop an effective guest worker program and this will become yesterday's news.

The Canada example was not that the illegal aliens do not continue (some do) rather the quality of the neighbor that does not require a fence.

As for the other this is certainly not the only thing needed.
1) Build a fence and enforce the border (no catch and release or other farses)
2) Create a system wherein the employers can verify legal residence
3) Investigate false SS numbers
4) Punish employers that employ illegals (this has to wait for number #2 to protect employers from false documents)
5) Take ALL illegal gains including houses and cars (banks have a means of verifying residence and have blatantly ignored it)
6) Ensure no illegal aliens are voting, getting government benefits, using government resources. Make kids verify before attended schools etc.

At that point the problem will become manageable. This is not a one bill problem that is fixed overnight. It took decades to create and will take a few years to fix. Of course the whores in DC will not find this profitable and the only way it will happen is if we scare them into action by voting a few out.

[luvtolean]

So...this fence.

Do you propose the whole length of the border or what?

[sheepofblue]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

So...this fence.

Do you propose the whole length of the border or what?

If needed yes. I think that you could strategically place sections while starting the other items and the entire fence would not be needed.

[luvtolean]

That fence is a monumental waste of money.

It's being propsed by politicians, spending my money, trying to look "tough on immigrants" to buy voters like yourself.

As long as Mexico is poor, we are rich, this will be going on.

The only things the US can do are reduce demand, and improve conditions down south. We have no other practical means.

[sheepofblue]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

That fence is a monumental waste of money.

It's being propsed by politicians, spending my money, trying to look "tough on immigrants" to buy voters like yourself.

As long as Mexico is poor, we are rich, this will be going on.

The only things the US can do are reduce demand, and improve conditions down south. We have no other practical means.

No worries on them buying my vote, I am not convinced that they will follow through with the rest of the items

Of course in '08 I will be running as a write in candidate for president so....

[phobiaphobe]

**** the fence. Build a moat.

[sheepofblue]

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

**** the fence. Build a moat.

With mutated sea bass with lasers

[seamus]

Sheep: I was just pointing out why even illegals from South America stop going north when they reach America. They'd stop in Mexico if they were getting what they needed in Mexico. But Mexico makes it very hard for them and they don't want to stay. They'd stay in their own countries if they were getting what they needed there. As soon as they become comfortable, they stop travelling. If they weren't getting what they needed here, they'd move on to Canada.

The list you posted, minus the magical fence, is almost every law on record already. Like I said before, enforce what you have and continue to work to develop a solution to the real problem. The problem isn't the flow into the US. The problem is the free handouts that draw them here.

Originally Posted by luvtolean

So...this fence.

Do you propose the whole length of the border or what?

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

**** the fence. Build a moat.

Build a fence, they'll start digging tunnels (some have already been found). Then we'll have to spend millions to develop a technology to "see" underground to find tunnels. Yes, I know there is already technology that can do that, but we'll spend money to develop new technology to make it look like we're trying to find a solution. If you're not spending new money, you're not looking for a solution and you won't get reelected. What we'll eventually end up with is a man made Grand Canyon separating Mexico from the US and connecting the Pacific and the Gulf of Mexico. Then we'll spend more time and money renaming the continents.

Then them pesky illegals will import rickety raft technology from the Cubans and we'll start all over again.

[leelover]

Ok, the fence isn't going to do really much, determined people will find a way to cross the border.
It would be great to improve conditions in Mexico, but what is America's part in that?
The moat is maybe a good idea, but it won't really be effective without the mutant sea bass, and with their global scarcity, and relativly slow breeding cycle, it would put us too far behind schedule to be truly considered.
Reducing demand and enforcing the laws that we have would make the biggest impact as I see it. Obviously, it is a whole lot easier said than done.
I am seeing a disturbing trend here in the Sunshine State. We have ALOT of Hispanic immigrants here, some legal, probably the majority not. (I know you all are experiancing it in your states ,too.) What is bothering me is not the people, most are honest, clean and hard working. The problem is they are here illegally and no one seems to really care!
I have been in the construction industry here since 1988, and we have always had a latino presence in the work force. Lately it seems the common phrase is "Ok, I'll get my Mexicans' to do that". And they do it, usually well, and for alot less than "Americans" would. So the "American" subcontractors drive around in their 4x4 diesel pickups ( complete with requisite lift kits, chrome brush guards, and monster mudders, cause we DO need that stuff), getting the jobs, making estimates, "talking to people", oh, and checking up on those "Mexicans". (Even if they really are Guatemalians, or Brazilizans, or whatever)
Before I go on till the sheep come home, I'll make the point I am slowly coming to: We can't all be chief's! gotta be some injuns out there.
I think the answer to this is twofold:
1, employers need to hire people who are here legally, regardless of where they came from, and pay what it takes to do so. Even if that should affect the bottom line, ouch!
2, Those of us who are here legally need to actually work, not find someone who is willing to do the job at a reduced rate.