[gt702]

Originally Posted by sheepofblue

Oh and his name is Passenger Sheep Sr.

Does this mean there is a JR?

This talk of convincing a ewe you are domesticatble now has me worried

[steingar]

I'm (for a change) not trying to be argumentative, but with all the emphasis on security in the election I did a Google search for "convicted American terrorist" and came up only with an abortion clinic bomber and Padilla. Has there been anyone else in the country convicted of terrorism or terror-related activities? I know my search has got to be coming up short, as I didn't see anything about Richard Reid. Am I missing dozens of American cells?

[gt702]

Oklahoma City remind you of anything?

There have been several I've heard of, but usually they got charged with, or plea bargained for, a different charge. I think we had a moltov coctail incident in the big city recently, not to mention drive-by shootings, and other forms of terrorism that don't get talked about as being terrorism ... but a rose by any other name ...

[ondablade]

Hi guys, some will remember me - I backed off from here quite a long time ago just pre-Iraq when the Bushism and associated rhetoric was at its height.

I'm not sure what these changes will bring but I just want to say that I couldn't be more pleased to see that the system has worked to the point that it's created some space for change.

A bit of grid lock mightn't be a bad thing at all while some sort of debate on a new foreign policy direction gets going and works through - one based on a genuine assessment of realities and application of wisdom rather than just a knee jerk lurch back in the opposite direction.

One aspect that's worrying is that years of fearmongering, selective reporting and hyping of threats to suit narrow political and other interests mean that US public opinion (and the alignment of many of its agencies) has been dragged way off centre - it's going to take time for a broader view to filter through and be absorbed.

If that's possible. Especially since Iraq and the Israeli Palestinian situation has become such a mess, and cost so many so much pain. It's going to take the wisdom of Solomon to achieve a return to some sort of non threatening stability which benefits both the West and the peoples concerned.

Speaking as an outsider I've seen more than enough ideology, partisan and fear based politics to last me out for my time. So here's hoping. Give it socks guys......

[sheepofblue]

Originally Posted by ondablade

Hi guys, some will remember me - I backed off from here quite a long time ago just pre-Iraq when the Bushism and associated rhetoric was at its height.

I'm not sure what these changes will bring but I just want to say that I couldn't be more pleased to see that the system has worked to the point that it's created some space for change.

A bit of grid lock mightn't be a bad thing at all while some sort of debate on a new foreign policy direction gets going and works through - one based on a genuine assessment of realities and application of wisdom rather than just a knee jerk lurch back in the opposite direction.

One aspect that's worrying is that years of fearmongering, selective reporting and hyping of threats to suit narrow political and other interests mean that US public opinion (and the alignment of many of its agencies) has been dragged way off centre - it's going to take time for a broader view to filter through and be absorbed.

If that's possible. Especially since Iraq and the Israeli Palestinian situation has become such a mess, and cost so many so much pain. It's going to take the wisdom of Solomon to achieve a return to some sort of non threatening stability which benefits both the West and the peoples concerned.

Speaking as an outsider I've seen more than enough ideology, partisan and fear based politics to last me out for my time. So here's hoping. Give it socks guys......

i always find this amusing. Center as YOU define it. Guess what the center would have a differing definition by most (unless they give the answer is some vague concept with no specifics). For instance the network news calls Lincoln Chaffee a 'moderate' as a Republican yet he is quite liberal and that tag cannot be applied to a Republican. Alternatively Howell Heflin was a conservative that was called a moderate since he was a Democrat. Oh and contrary to the rhetoric on most issues Bush is MORE liberal than Clinton was (based on actual record of actions). Also welcome to the invading hordes of illegal aliens that will soon be natives whom no longer need to work for slave wages (now welfare eligible) the elitists will soon be wondering what happened to their servants

[Baketech]

Did someone leave the grail shaped beacon on again...

[ondablade]

Geez guys. That didn't take long. Still blind, still stuck in the backwater, still out of touch with the world, still indulging in propping up your egos at the expense of the whole populations who have suffered on both sides as a result of the foreign policy boobs of the last five and more years which of course back then you'd no problem supporting.

I defer to your superior intellects and infintely morre highly devleloped sarcasm. How's about trying to use your undoubted intellectual abilities for the good of others for a change????

[deez]

Republicans are by nature concerned with their wallets. What happens to their fellow man is of no concern to them if it costs them one red cent.

Just kidding.

[steingar]

Actually, the change means surprisingly little. Both parties encompass the right and the left to a great degree, with only leanings either way. This is unfortunate, as both are needed. No one wants pure conservatism, the outcome of that is no taxes and no government, which is what is happening in Mogadisu and Lagos. On the other hand, pure socialism, where the government takes care of you your whole life, such as is practiced in Europe, is undesireable as well, especially since it doesn't work in reality.

Somewhere in the middle works best for America, and Americans know this. I can only hope that a third party starts in which the more conservative elements of the Republicans and Independents takes shape, and that the Democrats really do become the party of the Left. With the push and pull either way what you wind up with is policy in the middle, which tends to work best for all.

[sheepofblue]

Originally Posted by ondablade

Geez guys. That didn't take long. Still blind, still stuck in the backwater, still out of touch with the world, still indulging in propping up your egos at the expense of the whole populations who have suffered on both sides as a result of the foreign policy boobs of the last five and more years which of course back then you'd no problem supporting.

I defer to your superior intellects and infintely morre highly devleloped sarcasm. How's about trying to use your undoubted intellectual abilities for the good of others for a change????

Yep it is all OUR FAULT. Not the guys that feed people in to wood chippers, who systematically rape their population, who saw the heads off of live people, who fly planes into buildings of innocents, who plant bombs on their own children, who try to poison people using the tube to go to work. Sorry I suck and deserve to be attacked.

[leelover]

Originally Posted by sheepofblue

Yep it is all OUR FAULT. Not the guys that feed people in to wood chippers, who systematically rape their population, who saw the heads off of live people, who fly planes into buildings of innocents, who plant bombs on their own children, who try to poison people using the tube to go to work. Sorry I suck and deserve to be attacked.

Well, Sheep, you know if we had been nicer to those people none of this would have happened. The truth of the things you state above is inconsequential. The U.S. is just a bully going about the world beating down and repressing those less fortunate, cause we really are rich and spoiled, it just fell in our frikkin laps after all. Well, at least till those we are oppressing are getting their ass kicked by someone else...then we should sacrifice our troops to "save the world". Daily dose of sarcasm, there.
This whole anti-American whinny thing really pisses me off!!! It is so "in" to bash us, at least till we are needed. I wonder why? JEALOUSY, maybe?
In case no one notices, there are DIFFICULT issues in the world. They sometimes require a decisive reaction. Of course that is easy for indecisive folks who really don't do anything to criticize.

[jaim]

Originally Posted by steingar

I'm (for a change) not trying to be argumentative, but with all the emphasis on security in the election I did a Google search for "convicted American terrorist" and came up only with an abortion clinic bomber and Padilla. Has there been anyone else in the country convicted of terrorism or terror-related activities? I know my search has got to be coming up short, as I didn't see anything about Richard Reid. Am I missing dozens of American cells?

Unfortunately, with the Patriot Act you may never hear of any American citizens arrested as terrorists. And that lovely piece of legislation can't be pinned solely on one party. Nobody read it but they voted for it anyway and Bush, being the decider he is, signed it.

As far as gridlock goes. I sure hope it happens. Then maybe the flood of unnecessary spending will stop.

[onevcs]

Originally Posted by leelover

Well, Sheep, you know if we had been nicer to those people none of this would have happened. The truth of the things you state above is inconsequential. The U.S. is just a bully going about the world beating down and repressing those less fortunate, cause we really are rich and spoiled, it just fell in our frikkin laps after all. Well, at least till those we are oppressing are getting their ass kicked by someone else...then we should sacrifice our troops to "save the world". Daily dose of sarcasm, there.
This whole anti-American whinny thing really pisses me off!!! It is so "in" to bash us, at least till we are needed. I wonder why? JEALOUSY, maybe?
In case no one notices, there are DIFFICULT issues in the world. They sometimes require a decisive reaction. Of course that is easy for indecisive folks who really don't do anything to criticize.

I completely agree with you.
Invading other countries for no justifiable reason, breaking the Geneva Convention and basic Human Rights among other things… I don’t understand why the world has a bad opinion of the USA.
Perhaps we need a third world war so we can save everyone from an evil power and be the heroes again.
On top of all that, now the democrats are in charge in the House and Senate. That is not going to make it any better, right?

[abtech]

Originally Posted by onevcs

I completely agree with you.
Invading other countries for no justifiable reason, breaking the Geneva Convention and basic Human Rights among other things… I don’t understand why the world has a bad opinion of the USA.
Perhaps we need a third world war so we can save everyone from an evil power and be the heroes again.
On top of all that, now the democrats are in charge in the House and Senate. That is not going to make it any better, right?

uh, no . . .

[ondablade]

Oh boy. I’m not actually at all sure that the Democrats will be any better or more to the point much wiser either, just that they may be a little better at sugar coating the pill. Plus I’d hope that if gridlock results it’ll maybe interrupt the media manipulation and create space for other voices to speak out and maybe educate the public in a wider view of the international picture.

The US and Blair (I won’t say the UK because he doesn’t have broad support) are in Iraq and the Middle East out of naked self and national interest – oil, jobs for the boys, strategic presence, obligations of the US – UK ‘special relationship’ and as a counter to the ambitions of all sorts of countries ranging from Iran to Syria, to Pakistan, to India and China. This probably won’t change no matter who is in power. Most European governments are for the same reason walking a line between not wanting to get too involved and pissing the US administration off – my own is allowing use of airports for military and illegal and immoral rendition flights.

The Bush administration pulled together a diverse cabal of self interested ideological groups with really only a strongly fundamentalist right wing flavour to unite them to gain power. They went into Iraq on a lie and full of arrogance, belief in military power, aggression, incompetence and ignorance; and using patriotism, simplistic rhetoric about freedom, the urge for revenge after 9/11, manipulation of intelligence and hyped fear to suppress objections and to rally the faithful.

They massively damaged the reputation of the US in the world as an honest broker. Through arrogance they seriously damaged US/Euro relations, and demonstrated that even a super power needs co-operation. They demonstrated convincingly the limits of even massive military power, especially when the political will to accept casualties or to spend as needed is not there. They’ve massively increased the terrorist risk (put us all in the line of fire), played into the hands of anti-Western fundamentalists, killed, maimed, hurt and/or radicalized millions in doing so, and created another great training ground and international support base for the Islamic jihadists. This exacerbated by their letting the Israelis off the hook to hammer the Palestinians and the Lebanese. (Jewish vote, can’t be seen to block anti terrorist actions and all of that) Half of the Arab world and the big Asian players not already so armed having watched N Korea thumb it’s nose at them are now out of fear of US aggression racing for nuclear weapons.

This following a long line of foreign policy debacles by other administrations where local totalitarian heavies like Noriega, Saddam, the Shah of Iran, Osama Bin laden, the Taliban and lots of other rulers have transitioned from being supported (regardless of their methods) as instruments of a short term narrow self interest driven foreign policies (often against the needs of their own peoples) into massively hyped and very well armed enemies.

So it’s all boiling up nicely. But there’s no chance of much sense while a realistic debate is impossible, either in the US or in the rest of the world – while most insist in playing egotistical and self interest based games. There’s individual egos in play, and there groups of egos combined to make great ‘We’ or tribal groupings – ranging from right wing Republican ideologues, through Bushites, through vested interests, through religious fundamentalists on both sides, through the big commercial interests (military industrial and oil especially) , through ‘patriots’, through those who have been hurt and are seeking revenge, through those addicted to violence, through tyrants, through the great smelly unwashed short-sighted public in every country who don’t care what their leaders do as long as it doesn’t damage their so called standard of living, through the various politically correct groupings and -isms. Right down to individuals on this group who’d rather use it as a show case for their intellectual brilliance or as means to suppress meaningful political debate than to try to help.

I don’t have an answer to any of this at the specific level, it’s just the human condition. What I do know however is that the suffering and the injustice isn’t going to stop until we collectively learn to see, to feel and to act with wisdom. From the top to the bottom. To stop accepting the media crap being fed to us and open to seeing what’s actually happening, to stop voting in rulers who play to our weaknesses, to drop beliefs and ideologies which don’t work (instead blinding ourselves to the failures), to stop rolling out the same predictable old game plays from behind ideological and egotistical masks built from years of conditioning to the effect that it’s a dog eat dog world, that there are only winners and losers and that the winner takes all; to switch on our ability to feel for our fellow man again, to drop the ‘it’s all right if it leaves me ahead attitude we all adopt but mostly don’t even notice. To even be prepared to suffer a little for the benefit of the other guy - to put compassion and enlightened self interest at the ehart of our thinking.

C’mon guys, f*******ing wake up. Let’s see some courage, some honesty, some real opening, some real connection with the heart. The Ramboesque stereotypes we're conditioned to see as desirable and as representing bravery and toughness in fact stand for fear. It’s time to drop the shells we’ve built around ourselves which blind us to the state and needs of our fellow man, to move on……..

[leelover]

Wow! Thanks for putting all that together, Ondablade! So often, on here, and in general, statements get made with no explanation, or substantiation.
We are not necessarily going to agree, but it is important to explain and defend our beliefs.
You put out a lot of good points there and I agree with you quite a bit. The ideologies and religious beliefs in this world cause the bulk of the conflicts that result in human suffering, if not all. But if you think that there is a common meeting ground we will meet at soon I think you are naive. In your statement above you expose a common European ideology concerning the US. It is collectively "believed". As in the US acts in a "Ramboesque" manner strictly for it's own benefit. Be aware: that is your belief.
Here is what I think about the world peace situation: You are right, people in general should put the welfare of others above their own. It is the only way I can see to reach a point where no one takes advantage of someone else. So, you got a plan for this? Is it your real goal? How will you get those who are passionate to the point of death to comply? I would genuinely like to know. I know of one, but it's too radical, and requires too much commitment for the general world populace.
It doesn't involve finger pointing at another nation.
My earlier post about the anti-American sentiment still stands, WE are not the cause of the worlds evils.

[phobiaphobe]

Originally Posted by leelover

... people in general should put the welfare of others above their own. It is the only way I can see to reach a point where no one takes advantage of someone else.....

Strongly disagree.

[onevcs]

Originally Posted by ondablade

.


Right down to individuals on this group who’d rather use it as a show case for their intellectual brilliance or as means to suppress meaningful political debate than to try to help.

I know for a fact that the above statement does not include me. I have no brilliance to showcase. But I wonder if you consider yourself included in this group after rambling over some obvious points, some clever ones, and a lot of bullshit.

[leelover]

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

Strongly disagree.

ok, go ahead phobiaphobe...

[luvtolean]

So, the democrats win...and suddenly ondablade is posting again?

[Baketech]

"It's all right to have a train of thoughts...if you have a terminal." - Richard Bowker