[oldfogey]

Originally Posted by ondablade

I'm from Eire OF, and yes, some of the bombs were in England. Most were in NI, but wouldn't have got the dame publicity in the UK. The United Kingdom (UK) is the nation state consisting of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

So far so good on the peace front The bombings and shootings have stopped, the IRA has apparently disarmed ["It is no coincidence that the IRA has apparently started its campaign of human rights abuses again, as it merely follows the pattern of the past. IRA shootings drop in the build-up to important talks, then, if the deal falls through - and it did so because of the IRA this time - it goes back to what it knows best. In recent days Republicans have complained that they have had the finger of blame pointed at them for a crime. But they themselves are pointing guns at people they suspect of criminal activity - and, without evidence, act as judge, jury and executioner. We have seen how IRA criminal activity has led to crisis. Now paramilitary activity is threatening to further erode confidence, as republicans carry out these brutal acts. Republicans may not consider blowing someone's hands off a ceasefire breach, but it is certainly a breach of their human rights and the law." - Alliance (non-sectarian) party)] and the two sides are talking to each other to cut a deal to share power with other parties in Northern Ireland. (the part of Ireland run by the UK) [see above] There's a rump on both sides wanting to stay with violence but they seem to be too small and isolated to be effective.

Forgive me, ondablade, but this kind of biassed inaccuracy is often at the heart of disagreement. I do, however, join you most sincerely in hoping that the troubles are now behind us.

[sheepofblue]

Originally Posted by ondablade

I'm from Eire OF, and yes, some of the bombs were in England. Most were in NI, but wouldn't have got the dame publicity in the UK.

So far so good on the peace front The bombings and shootings have stopped, the IRA has apparently disarmed and the two sides are talking to each other to cut a deal to share power with other parties in Northern Ireland. (the part of Ireland run by the UK) There's a rump on both sides wanting to stay with violence but they seem to be too small and isolated to be effective.

The North is a really nice case study as to the benefits of the sort of softly softly approach I'm trying to outline. The British government and military for years escalated their responses with traditional force based disciplinarian approaches - shoot to kill policies, aggressive house searches, dodgy arrests, imprisonment without trial, a biased police force, political solutions imposed from outside and all sorts of law and order stuff.

All it did was to create a support base and recruitment campaign in the general population for what had been a tiny minority of terrorists. Things only started to improve when Blair realised they could never win, and they started talking about how to respond to the concerns and needs of both populations. The big guys in the terrorist groups as usual are converting to being politicians.

The frightening bit is the way it's taken years and years of talking and negotiation to overcome the distrust and the fear and the addictions and the vested interests which were the legacy of the bad old days. To get the 'so-called' disbandment moving. (and I agree Deez that it's a bit fragile, but as time goes by military capability, will and popular support leak away)

It could yet revive, although it's looking pretty good.....

I'm passionate Nedro, mostly out of self interest - and because the US handling of the Middle East with the simplistic and idealistic policies of the Bush administration has (diametrically opposed to the the above experience) in recent years been really frightening in respect of its results and their implications for the rest of the world. As was the way US politics seemed to have become dominated by extreme views.

It was like a fascist state, with those who knew better keeping their heads down for fear of being accused of being un-patriotic, un-Amercian or whatever.

I lived in the US for several years in the 80s and can't say too much good about almost all ( afew Corporate types excepted) of the people I met. And about just how incredibly enlightened large segments of US population are. And about how I love the tendency to be direct, open and practical.

The bit that's thrown me especially in recent years is the huge gulf between the practical goodwill and hospitality of the ordinary people I met, and the sort of philosophies espoused by those in power and in big business. Almost like going up the ladder requires heart removal.

I'm really optimistic too that you guys have turned a corner, there's too much wisdom and history around for it not be likely. And I truly wish the best to the people making decisions going forward....

Those seem contradictory I assume you meant that you CAN say a lot of good about most people or how incredibly UNenlightened most people are.

[ondablade]

Pardon the typo on the UK OF, but it’s not the point. I could have made a similar point on your use of the term Eire but didn’t as I really don’t care.

Believe me, I'm as skeptical as you are about the goodwill of the IRA and Sinn Fein their political wing. It's absolutely clear that they want into politics AND simultaneously to hang on to their weaponry. An extension of their longstanding policy of the 'bomb and the ballot box'.

For sure they are not coming into politics out of altruism, more out of what's in it for those of the leadership who would end up in office. Their vision for Ireland is not one I'd want any part of either, they see the current Irish state as a sell out (since 1922) and would like to replace it with some sort of totalitarian republic. There's also lots of localized low level violence going on – there were and are huge protection rackets in NI, and they’re not above using threats to get voters out.

The hope is that these will fade with time, and as their politicians are forced to distance themselves from it to get votes.

I'm also pretty skeptical of the British and Irish politicians involved in the process - both sides have such a political need at the moment to be seen to have delivered something tangible that I think they would accept an IOU on the back of a table napkin as a basis for announcing success. We owe a lot to Paisley and the Unionists for holding out and keeping them even reasonably honest.

But as I thought I'd said the point is that with time and economic progress public support for violence and the broader groups will hopefully dwindle to nothing, and the bad guys will be left as rumps which can hopefully will be dealt with by the law. The radical views of those coming into politics will hopefully also be softened with time and the need to appeal to voters.

I hope, because it's strategy we could pay a big price for if it doesn’t work. If for example our economy goes pear shaped and lots start to vote for them. Or if the already poor reputation of our own politicians gets any worse and people are deluded into voting for them for a change.

But escalating the militaristic law and order alternative wasn't working and it didn’t stop the bombs in England either. (it arguably was a cause of the IRA decision to extend their campaign outside of NI) In the end if nobody had moved until the IRA were squeaky clean we'd still be stuck with bombs etc. and instead of having had years of peace. These things are not black and white.

I didn’t mean any contradiction Sheep. By 'can't say too much good...' I meant I can't say bad - it's local turn of phrase maybe. I’ve been arguing for more compassion and wisdom in the handling of the Middle East vs. the reliance on arrogance, force and top down militaristic policies of the current Administration.

What I meant is that the negative qualities of the Administration are not in my experience typical of the behavior of the ordinary US man in the street. They become however much more typical as you move to Senior management level in the Corporate world, a very dog eat dog and money/bottom line ruled environment.

I guess I’m arguing the need for rather more of the natural compassion and wisdom (common sense) demonstrated by the ordinary guy to be evidenced at leadership and policy level. I’m not sure why the gap.....

Bottom line is that I’m making the case for wisdom, moderation and compassion, but it goes against the conditioning of most and I don’t expect everybody to agree….

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by ondablade

I didn’t mean any contradiction Sheep. By 'can't say too much good...' I meant I can't say bad - it's local turn of phrase maybe. I’ve been arguing for more compassion and wisdom in the handling of the Middle East vs. the reliance on arrogance, force and top down militaristic policies of the current Administration.

You sure do like those buzzwords.

Anyway, the funny thing, I think part of the problem in Iraq is that there is too little force on top, and too little military policy, too little arrogance, a process that is trying to be inclusive of all people in Iraq.

Don't forget what it took to run Iraq, a Saddam. There is FAR more compassion, wisdom, lack of arrogance, and any other term you want to through in there, with the US led coalition movement in the country.

More arrogance and force follows the tribal ways that country is used to.

What I meant is that the negative qualities of the Administration are not in my experience typical of the behavior of the ordinary

US man in the street. They become however much more typical as you move to Senior management level in the Corporate world, a very dog eat dog and money/bottom line ruled environment.

Yep, at the top of any game, where money/power/fame are involved, whether it be politics, business, or sport, Type A alpha males and females will always rule. Always have, always will. I think it's better this way, as these are people who execute.

For better or worse, the meek will not inherit the earth...

[leelover]

Originally Posted by ondablade

Bottom line is that I’m making the case for wisdom, moderation and compassion, but it goes against the conditioning of most and I don’t expect everybody to agree….

By making statements like this you are demonstrating you own arrogance, and the close mindedness of your opinion.

[Baketech]

Lee, it's Newcastle on the phone.... they want to order another load of coal...

Should I put them on hold, or give the phone to LTL...?

[ondablade]

Churchill or somebody said of the UK and the US something like 'two nations separated by a common langauge'.

It's hard to judge Iraq LTL. But for sure the current strategy has failed.

I can agree that there's probably been too little force available, the combination of the local and US militaries can't keep the peace. With ongoing violence, radicalisation of whole populations and the sucking in of external players the problem is getting bigger and more intractable all the time.

I don't know if it ever was feasible, but if the place had been held down with sufficient manpower from the start to enable a rapid return to normality post invasion then maybe this stuff might not have got rolling. The radicals might have kept their heads down. Moderate behaviour by the military would have helped a lot too in forming attitudes. People would have got working, normal politics would have come to the fore and with time as I described in my bit on Northern Ireland above the guns would hopefully have become ploughshares. Or not, maybe invasion was never an option. Iraq was never easy.

I'm not sure we're speaking of the same wisdom and compassion. Mind leads to thought leads to action leads to consequences. Compassion and wisdom in thought and action deliver positive outcomes for self and people. That's all. Despite our gut (we like to think we're highly moral) instinct that there is more compassion in Iraq today than before the outcome and results for the population says otherwise.

There's probably a lot more people running around saying 'oh this is terrible' now than was the case before, but that's just saccharin feel good sh1t. The launching of an invasion without a properly resourced and workable restructuring plan, and the ongoing mishandling amount to a major and ongoing failure of wisdom and compassion.

Even now most are worried really only about 'how do we extrciate ourselves from this, how do we get out ahead'. Not what about the people of Iraq.

And that's before you even think about whether or not the original aim of securing strategic control in the region was right for all the peoples concerned anyway, or whether it was just a play driven by the delusions and perceived interests of a very small minority. It looks like all it's done is to massively destabilise the Middle East, damage US influencing capability as an honest broker and give lots more loons huge sense of confidence.

Compassion includes the tough love dimension as said before. So having force available is important to create balance. But wisdom and compassion require using it the right way. Be seen to play the force card gratuitiously or unwisely, make heavy handed use of this force or inflict harm on innocent civilian populations while trying to root out tiny violent minorities and you lose. Ditto if you are seen to get into the latter behaviours for fear of taking spending money, taking casulaties, or if your troops are seen to resort to inhumanity. Be seen to be compassionate and measured and populations are more likely to come on side.

The British Royal Air Force didn't bomb republican areas of Belfast to root out the tiny percentage that were members of the IRA.

I don't agree on the alpha male bit, because again it's based on a gross oversimplification. Many humans behave like animals, but there's an innate goodness (albeit heavily obscured in many cases) present as well. There is a natural authority, and as above great leaders have to be able to play in the force space to be accepted. Some are suited to leadership, and most not. But real authority flows from a perception of legitimacy, from a perception of compassion and wisdom.

As a result of our failure to demand compassion from those in power many who make it into leadership these days are actually those least suited - driven by ego, self interest and no more.

It's common sense. A person totally reliant on power for legitimacy can force compliance where he can exert that power, but he can't force the buy-in or motivation of the people concerned. So he's forever like the guy trying to hold down a greasy ball bearing on a spring under his thumb - look away for a moment and it escapes. Leaders who apply compassion and respond to people's real needs end up with large numbers of motivated people actively seeking to support a common agenda.

Not sure how I'm being arrogant LL except perhaps by having the neck to post long reams of bullshit on a public forum. It's just my opinion, albeit not original but one grown from a fairly careful and extended look at a fairly wide range of spiritual teachings. And I'm probably wrong in many ways.

It's clear though as LTL's comments bear out that many belive firmly in rule of the fittest by an animalistic self, that the compassion dimension is not clearly seen as a requirement at either leadership or lower levels. This is a dangerous and dehumanising view in my opinion, one driven by a mind created popular culture we've come to believe is real. But it's not.

I've been there. I'm reaching the end of my working life, I reached senior management level while working for a multinational corporation and saw the way that many at top management level parked their basic humanity and goodness outside before coming in. The way companies lose out through this. The same happens in politics, or wherever.

But we're going to pay a very high price if we continue to fail to look for wisdom and compassion from our leaders, and don't start actively examing our own behaviours for how to act and live in this way too. If we don't stop rationalising that there's somehow no other way. Maybe we have to learn the lesson the hard way before we'll see sense.

Anyway, thanks for the hearing. I'll drop in again at some stage maybe.

[luvtolean]

Onda, I know for sure we will always fail to see eye to eye on what compassion is in Iraq. I feel like I know my countrymen, and despite many hollow claims about Bush's intentions, I believe him to be a very honest man, and also in his mind ethical. I honestly believe he is trying to help Iraqis. I think the troops and leaders there in general want to do what is right. I know the leadership of our government and military is made up of very smart people. There have been problems, and sitting where we are, it's easy to point fingers. But neither you, nor I, really know what has gone down.

Whether it's a failure or not is not yet determinable. It won't be determinable for years. So I'll withhold judgement.

Call it animalistic if you like, and I suppose it is. I believe that man will do what is best for himself and his family. I think we are hardwired that way, and I don't think any of the new age intellectual thinkers will ever change it.

Because of the personality traits of some men, they will get ahead faster than those around him. The system these men operate in won't matter. In the US they'll be CEOs, politicians and sports stars. In a communist or socialist system, they'll be the politicians and party members. At the end of the day, no matter what "rules" society places on to these people, their genetic gifts, drive and intelligence, whatever the motivation is, will see them reach the top.

I think you take Jack Welch and put him in commie Russia, and you'd still have a guy that ended up running some monster biz. He would've just adapted to a different set of rules to get there.

Whether this is good or not is not a relevant discussion to me as a practical person. New age bullshitters are not the kind that run the show. Never will be. I don't think the compassion of leaders has ever fundamentally changed, nor do I think it will. Leaders are afterall, simply men. Somewhat unusual men in some way, but men nonetheless.

[leelover]

Originally Posted by Baketech

Lee, it's Newcastle on the phone.... they want to order another load of coal...

Should I put them on hold, or give the phone to LTL...?

yeah well, you see what happens, while I'm am checking with my supplier, that undercuttin' LTL jumps in and stokes it up! Like he needs the bizness anyway!
Though I gotta admit this last shipment in particular IS high quailty stuff.

[leelover]

Onadablade, I am saying you are arrogant because you seem to post your ideas from a Superior attitude. I arrive at this because of the wording of your posts, particularly the first few. I am not going to quote you, it's all in the thread. That kind of attitude demonstrates an outlook that basically says: If you knew as much, and were as progressive, or as perspective, or unbiased, wise?, etc., as I you would "get" it.
For the record I agree with a lot of your concepts, but they are unrealistic. As far as I can see we could say "if only the situation in wherever were handled differently "the people" would have responded differently", forever.
What's that saying; "if if's were fifths, we'd all be drunk"?
Not to oversimplify things but, The Mid East is not Ireland.
If you have seen as much as you claim (and I don't doubt it), you should realize the futility of your conceptual approach. In the ME, and the world, and all our own lives, in my opinion.

[leelover]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

Onda, I know for sure we will always fail to see eye to eye on what compassion is in Iraq. I feel like I know my countrymen, and despite many hollow claims about Bush's intentions, I believe him to be a very honest man, and also in his mind ethical. I honestly believe he is trying to help Iraqis. I think the troops and leaders there in general want to do what is right. I know the leadership of our government and military is made up of very smart people. There have been problems, and sitting where we are, it's easy to point fingers. But neither you, nor I, really know what has gone down.

Whether it's a failure or not is not yet determinable. It won't be determinable for years. So I'll withhold judgement.

Call it animalistic if you like, and I suppose it is. I believe that man will do what is best for himself and his family. I think we are hardwired that way, and I don't think any of the new age intellectual thinkers will ever change it.

Because of the personality traits of some men, they will get ahead faster than those around him. The system these men operate in won't matter. In the US they'll be CEOs, politicians and sports stars. In a communist or socialist system, they'll be the politicians and party members. At the end of the day, no matter what "rules" society places on to these people, their genetic gifts, drive and intelligence, whatever the motivation is, will see them reach the top.

I think you take Jack Welch and put him in commie Russia, and you'd still have a guy that ended up running some monster biz. He would've just adapted to a different set of rules to get there.

Whether this is good or not is not a relevant discussion to me as a practical person. New age bullshitters are not the kind that run the show. Never will be. I don't think the compassion of leaders has ever fundamentally changed, nor do I think it will. Leaders are afterall, simply men. Somewhat unusual men in some way, but men nonetheless.

, wow!
Totally agree

[ondablade]

Geez. No getting away from here. The winding key goes in hole in the middle of my back. No question LTL that there are maybe a few great and compassionate (in the sense I've tried to communicate it) leaders out there, including in business.

But delivery of shareholder value or achievement of high office or fit with public expectations doesn't make a leader great. The slide to an ever tighter focus on these objectives in recent times is the problem I've been hammering away at - because it's not leaving space for leaders that show compassion. (those that embody it get filtered out of the system anyway)

There's a truism that says that as long as we define (or demand) leadership greatness in an inappropriate sense that leaders can never be great or that great people will never make it to the top. That we get the leadership we deserve. We of course think that the leadership great though because it conforms to our conception of greatness. A circular argument. Hitler was popular, but he wasn't great, at least not in the sense I mean. But he reflected what the German people thought they needed at the time.

I'm pushing compassion, because even though we and our leaders mostly think we embody it, all we in fact do play out all sorts of macho and deluded stuff we've picked up. We don't see, we just invent and play out little 'feel good' sub routines to take our minds off what we really are doing.

So I agree, compassion is not the natural human state. It's something we have to work and work at to develop the insight to see and apply. (or re-learn to see) It's not easy, but transcending the animal self is I think most agree central to the human journey.

Pardon my lecturing, it's not intended as a superior attitude. At least I've by my serious mien given the wise guys a good laugh. There's a lot of (inappropriate, my apologies) frustration coming through in my posts too, because from where I sit the whole world warned the US and the Bush Admin off Iraq. And the whole world will pay for the Administration's bull headed arrogance there.

But that's OK too: we stepped aside, out of fear of offending the US and laziness washed our hands and let him get on with it despite it being our concern too so we as always get what we deserve.

Don't write this off as new age stuff, as a viewpoint it's been around for thousands of years. Compassion is at the core of the teachings of the Buddha, Christ, and many more....

The challenge for all of us is to raise the courage to challenge our conditioning, to stop presuming that because we happen to think it that it must be right/important or whatever. To break out of the circular internal debate that is the basis of self delusion. Out of the cycle of the egos always seeking to prop itself by selectively percieving to fit its pre-conceptions from what's in front of us, to gain some unbiased insight.

It a call each of us has to make. Will we spend our lives in a fruitless and suffering inducing struggle to maintain the ego and the belief structures from which it's built, or will we start to chip away at it......

[johnnycrash]

Originally Posted by ondablade

There's a lot of (inappropriate, my apologies) frustration coming through in my posts too, because from where I sit the whole world warned the US and the Bush Admin off Iraq. And the whole world will pay for the Administration's bull headed arrogance there.

I agree with this part of your long-ass post. Believe it or not, there are still people here in the US that defend that war and the Bush administrations unilateral choice to start it.

[leelover]

Ondablade, You still believe you are "teaching", (or trying to teach) stubborn, macho, Ramboesque folk who "just don't get it".
The new age stuff is not new. It has been around as long as anything else.
Here's a secret (IMO), it doesn't work! At least without a bigger personal change than "knowledge".
That's as far I go here, this is not the Religious forum.

[ondablade]

From another forum for those of us inclined to place a lot of belief in the accuracy of our perceptions:

I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid! Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer inwaht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? Yaeh, and I awlyas thought slpeling was ipmorantt. NOTE: I read this somewhere and I just had to pass it around.

Point being we are programmed to look at situations and extract sense from only a very few data points.

Point being we will do this regardless, and in accordance with our pre-conceptions or pre-conditioning - we could just as easily look at this and see nothing but a jumble of garbage. Or many other combinations of points making sense but telling a different story if our conditioning was different.

Great when we're threatened and needing to make a fast judgement to survive, but not so good when we need to see all the angles and points of view in a complex situation.

We all do it, but it kind of points up that there's maybe a place for a bit of self doubt or at least calm reflection now and then....

[JohnDoe83]

I hope that soon people will begin to realize that the democrat-republican divide is a false paradigm intended to divide people such that they never band together against the real problem. The Federal Reserve and global banking system control most of the developed world through the fiat currency system.

Most individuals are unaware that the Federal Reserve is actually owned by private individuals whose names are held secret. The basic scam they utilize is to get the government to let them have a monopoly on creating money out of nothing and then charge the government interest on it. This interest is paid through direct income taxation. If you read the Grace Comission Report, you will find that NONE of the money you pay to the IRS comes back in any kind of infrastructure benefit, but instead goes to the handful of elite bank owners. This is how all the banking cartels of the world work and it forms the basis of their power. This system must end if America is ever to prosper again. Otherwise, the vise grip of control over our lives will get tighter until we are in a total dictatorship in which all individual rights are revoked.

If you do not believe this, simply do 20 minutes of research on the Federal Reserve banking system and see for yourself. G. Edward Griffin's book "The Creature From Jekyll Island" is also a fantastic resource.

If you want to learn more about how this scam robs hard working families of thier freedom and property, you should watch America: Freedom to Fascism by the late great Aaron Russo (Link below).

America: Freedom to Fascism - Director's Authorized Version

P.S. Only candidates who stand up for moral principle and The Constitution can help America restore peace, freedom, and prosperity to the people. Party is meaningless.

Vote Dr. Ron Paul 2008

Keep the rubber side down