[analogbear]

Originally Posted by sinfuldragon

I think if we are going to start on this debate then we need to start a new thread so that everyone will have their chance to voice thier opinions.

I would agree, if there were a debate. There is no debate regarding the inclusion of illegals in our economic machine. They are there, and they are currently indespensible.

If you want to start a new thread about whether or not that is a good thing, or what could be done to stop some aspects of it, fine.

But to ignorantly (as Mojave seemingly did) blow smoke, lies and distortion out of a sphincter, and for us to call that debate debases us all.

The poor guy who started this thread just wanted to save a few bucks, and instead he gets Sean Hannity? WTF?

[sinfuldragon]

Originally Posted by analogbear

I would agree, if there were a debate. There is no debate regarding the inclusion of illegals in our economic machine. They are there, and they are currently indespensible.

If you want to start a new thread about whether or not that is a good thing, or what could be done to stop some aspects of it, fine.

But to ignorantly (as Mojave seemingly did) blow smoke, lies and distortion out of a sphincter, and for us to call that debate debases us all.

The poor guy who started this thread just wanted to save a few bucks, and instead he gets Sean Hannity? WTF?

True its not a debate... yet but I figure everyone has two cents and they were going to throw it in the pot, before that happens I wanted to point out that that would need a new thread since that wasn't the point of this one, as you pointed out this is a guy who is just trying to save some green. I think I will start that new thread though, will be interesting to see what comes of it.

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by sinfuldragon

True its not a debate... yet but I figure everyone has two cents and they were going to throw it in the pot, before that happens I wanted to point out that that would need a new thread since that wasn't the point of this one, as you pointed out this is a guy who is just trying to save some green. I think I will start that new thread though, will be interesting to see what comes of it.

Excellent, excellent...

[sinfuldragon]

Originally Posted by analogbear

Excellent, excellent...

I fear I have opened pandora's box here....

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by sinfuldragon

I fear I have opened pandora's box here....

Yes, the hands are rubbing together...

[Cowboy1600]

Originally Posted by Gigolo Jason

Ten bucks says your an American hating, Hillary supporting flaming liberal Jane Fonda esc protester who wants to get out of the middle east ASAP at any cost AND you voted for John Kerry in the last national presidential election cycle.

Who wants to take this bet?



As for the original poster, buy a toys on the island that you can't get here in the states, and send me a 20b while you are at it.

Wow...are you the first graduate from the BDA School of Internet Politics?

You forgot to call him queer (I think that is what the rednecks call "them" aint it?), treacherous and yellow backed. By the way, I believe the term is "Billary" not Hillary. You musta failed "Terminology".

Oh, I love the super fast fall back too. It was a nice touch. 3rd post in and you have already resorted to name calling. Surely you "Neo-Cons" should be able to structure one or two argumentative posts before having to rely on a hasty retreat while firing shots over your shoulder?

[Cowboy1600]

Originally Posted by JBAXX

I live in Southern California. Residents of Mexico make up WELL over 20% of the population here. It has caused a lot of problems ranging from overcrowded schools and jails, uninsured, unlicenced motorists, overwhelmed health care system, etc. If I don't like it, am I racist, or is it ok?

Living somewhere, and occupying somewhere are two different things. I'm not 100% sure of the situation in Okinawa, or SoCal, but I have a feeling they may be pretty different.

[Macattack]

Originally Posted by rb1

Before you go around calling people racists, stop to think how you would feel if some foreign government occupied 20% of your home country with their military personel-- people who didn't think like you, didn't look like you, didn't speak like you, didn't act like you. Now, imagine that some of those foreign military agents kidnapped and raped your sisters and daughters from time to time, for their amusement. Would you be inclined to help those foreigners obtain their toys?

Totally agree with you rb1

[Murphy's Law]

well sorry to all you good hearted americans and O yea rb1 you DAMN commi. i was trying to read all of the posts but i only reached about half way before i was disgusted at what was being said. And o yea my absence was due to training to better protect your freedoms aka you ability to voice your oppinons despite how rediculous they may be. but i digress, rb1 you speak so much about how the "country" of okinawa doesn't want us there well guess what jack okinawa isn't a country. Its part of Japan and Japan does want us there because if we hadn't been there im sure the koreans or chinese wouldn't have had any problem stepping in and showing people how life being "occupied" really is. And lets not forget about the fact that without the US military presence on the island the economy would be destroyed. but hey im sure they could all go from buisness owners back to subsistance farming without too much trouble.

ahh and again i read a little further down and just get more pissed off. While im not sure if your math is correct or not about the amout of space military instalations take up who do you think works at ALL of those instalations the japs do. And where would all those hundreds of people go for jobs, i know they could help tear down all the abandoned buildings from where aprtment complex after apartment complex went out of buisness cuz guess what theres noone left on the island to live there. and pretty much every club, bar, and even the whore houses goes under because they cant pay the inflated taxes on there buisness since as a last ditch effort the governor decided he would raise taxes to try to help raise some money.

and finally why did we puts troops on the island back in 1945....... o yea thats right mother fu**ing pearl harbor. so f*** them their attack on us was the end of the peace talks our government was trying to put into place. And here since you seem to be so intelectual heres a definition of the word occupy -"to take possession and control of (a place), as by military invasion" and no we dont have possession of the island, and no we dont control by any means the island.

[rb1]

Originally Posted by Murphy's Law

And here since you seem to be so intelectual heres a definition of the word occupy -"to take possession and control of (a place), as by military invasion" and no we dont have possession of the island, and no we dont control by any means the island.

From 1945 until about 1952, the US did occupy and control the island of Okinawa by military force. In 1951, when the San Francisco Peace Treaty was officially recognized, Okinawa became a possession of the United States (meaning that we still occupied and controlled it!) In 1972, control of Okinawa reverted to Japan, but a very significant US military presense remained (occupying 20% of the island).

[BTW "occupy" has many meanings. I am currently occupying my house. Years ago, I occupied an apartment. Currently I own and control my house, but year ago I just rented. However, despite merely renting, I still occupied that apartment.]

Whether you want to believe it or not, a sizable number of Okinawans do not like the US presense on their island. Many of them do not accept Japan's control of their island, either.

You talk about how angry it makes you to read what has been posted here, but that just means you are at war with reality. The world is what it is. I simply described the situation as it is. Why does that make you so mad at me? How in the hell does it give you the right to call me a "DAMN commi"?

[Murphy's Law]

why do i have the right to call you a commi? because i live in the good old united states of america, its that freedom of speech thing that you seemed to like using when you called one of the other people who posted stupid or whatever exactly you said. and why am i angry at you, because you had to analize my intial post and put your 2 cents in just like every other attention grubbing liberal in this country so now while there might have been someone on this site who could have better answered my question they will never know i asked because it got suddenly changed to a polital debate when you wanted every one to know about the poor okinawans and how uncle sam is opressing them. you want to talk about reality here it is. JAPAN owns okinawa and japan wants us there. thats it. and while i dont know much about the economy of okinawa what i do know is this they might not particularly like the US and they generally dont like japan but w/o both our countries they would be nothing.

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by Murphy's Law

why do i have the right to call you a commi? because i live in the good old united states of america, its that freedom of speech thing that you seemed to like using when you called one of the other people who posted stupid or whatever exactly you said. and why am i angry at you, because you had to analize my intial post and put your 2 cents in just like every other attention grubbing liberal in this country so now while there might have been someone on this site who could have better answered my question they will never know i asked because it got suddenly changed to a polital debate when you wanted every one to know about the poor okinawans and how uncle sam is opressing them. you want to talk about reality here it is. JAPAN owns okinawa and japan wants us there. thats it. and while i dont know much about the economy of okinawa what i do know is this they might not particularly like the US and they generally dont like japan but w/o both our countries they would be nothing.

You certainly have the right to call anyone whatever you want. Unfortunately, calling a clearly centrist, capitalist-with-conscience, articulate, intelligent, educated, American -who clearly speaks the truth and identifies his opinions when present- a commi[e], makes you sound like a retard. I am not calling you a retard, I would never do that. Now, as you are using a computer, with only 3 or 4 spelling, grammar, and syntax errors per sentence, you clearly are not retarded. You are an average American, with strong passions and opinions. The fact that you admitted to not knowing a great deal about the historical and economic situation in the Asian/Pacific theater speaks volumes about your humility and courage, but don't destroy that maturity by speaking ad hominem attacks against another.

Rb1 is not a commie...In fact, nobody is a real commie...Communism never was tried. The closest was a perverted form of socialism. Don't believe political propaganda about the "Communists" as true or accurate. There were several attempts at socialist utopias, but anyone who has actually studied Marx in any scholarly sense will tell you the same thing.

[rb1]

Murphy,

This is the last time I will waste my time pointing out to you the many, many errors in your thought process.

Originally Posted by Murphy's Law

why do i have the right to call you a commi? because i live in the good old united states of america, its that freedom of speech thing that you seemed to like using when you called one of the other people who posted stupid or whatever exactly you said.

You don't even know what I said, yet you are comparing what I may have (or may not have) said to what you said? That is absurd. Read what I said carefully, then you can respond to it if you like.

You have the right to think that I am a "commi", but you have no basis for thinking that I am one. First off, there is no such thing as a "commi". It is not a word. Second, I am not a member of the communist party. I am not a communist. And I said nothing at all to indicate any tendency in that direction. So, based on nothing but your own ignorance, you call me a "commi". You have no intelligent response to anything I said, so you attack me. That is ignorance, plain a simple.

Furthermore, calling me a "commi" could be considered both libelous and slanderous:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

In law, defamation is the communication of a statement that makes a false claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may harm the reputation of an individual, business, product, group, government or nation. Most jurisdictions allow legal actions, civil and/or criminal, to deter various kinds of defamation and retaliate against criticism.

The common law origins of defamation lie in the torts of slander (harmful statement in a transitory form, especially speech) and libel (harmful statement in a fixed medium, especially writing but also a picture, sign, or electronic broadcast), each of which gives a common law right of action.

"Defamation" is the general term used internationally, and is used in this article where it is not necessary to distinguish between "slander" and "libel".

Libel and slander both require publication. The fundamental distinction between libel and slander lies solely in the form in which the defamatory matter is published. If the offending material is published in some fleeting form, as by spoken words or sounds, sign language, gestures and the like, then this is slander. If it is published in more durable form, for example in written words, film, compact disc and the like, then it is considered libel.

Originally Posted by Murphy's Law

and why am i angry at you, because you had to analize my intial post and put your 2 cents in just like every other attention grubbing liberal in this country so now while there might have been someone on this site who could have better answered my question they will never know i asked because it got suddenly changed to a polital debate when you wanted every one to know about the poor okinawans and how uncle sam is opressing them.

You have no basis to think I am a "liberal" and you have not defined what you think "liberal" means, except to make it clear that you hate "liberals". Are you really so stupid that you believe all "liberals" are just trying to get attention?

Regarding the answer to your question, it was answered. And it was YOU who guaranteed this would be moved to the politics area by calling Okinawans "a bunch of racist bastards who like to f*** the americans." Did you ever stop to think that there might be Okinawans on this board? Do you think they like your insults? You are living in their home. You better learn to get along with them, or you will not enjoy your stay.

Originally Posted by Murphy's Law

and while i dont know much about the economy of okinawa what i do know is this they might not particularly like the US and they generally dont like japan but w/o both our countries they would be nothing.

Okinawans were proud of their island and their culture long before the US arrived. They were never just "nothing" and they would not be "nothing" if the US left.

You are a very ignorant person, Murphy. Your xenophobic and racist slanders are not of any benefit to anyone. I hope you grow up soon.

[sinfuldragon]

Before everyone jumps his ass about being a racist has anyone ever been there? Perhaps they are racist, maybe they throw rocks at him when he is in uniform, won't take his order, won't offer help in any manner. Perhaps he has a right to be spouting off (venting if you will). I have never been there so I don't know what its like but here is a pretty good rule of thumb, if the people don't want you there for whatever reason I'm willing to bet in general they are dicks to you and your kind and I'm even willing to bet that they are RACIST towards you!!

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by sinfuldragon

Before everyone jumps his ass about being a racist has anyone ever been there? Perhaps they are racist, maybe they throw rocks at him when he is in uniform, won't take his order, won't offer help in any manner. Perhaps he has a right to be spouting off (venting if you will). I have never been there so I don't know what its like but here is a pretty good rule of thumb, if the people don't want you there for whatever reason I'm willing to bet in general they are dicks to you and your kind and I'm even willing to bet that they are RACIST towards you!!

Only, he didn't say they were racist because they through rocks at him when out of uniform or in uniform, he called them racists because they wanted to place a tariff on an imported good, and charge him extra because he was an American...That cannot be racism, as I have said already, because americans are made up of so many races.

[sinfuldragon]

Originally Posted by analogbear

Only, he didn't say they were racist because they through rocks at him when out of uniform or in uniform, he called them racists because they wanted to place a tariff on an imported good, and charge him extra because he was an American...That cannot be racism, as I have said already, because americans are made up of so many races.

Valid point.

[redneckF4rider]

Okay look, I'm not gonna get into the political blasphemy that is going on in the thread. Rb1 asked a simple question when he posted this thread? Rb1, I'll give you an answer.
I was stationed on Okinawa for two years, one at Hansen and one at Foster. Being the motorcycle fanatic that I am I offer you a bit of advice. Buy a used Japanese bike, already registered and already licensed. Of course you know you'll have to complete the rider course on base.
You'll be a lot better off!!

[rb1]

Originally Posted by redneckF4rider

Rb1 asked a simple question when he posted this thread?
...
Buy a used Japanese bike, already registered and already licensed

I didn't start this thread or ask that question, but I agree with your answer to Murphy's original question.

[redneckF4rider]

yeah, I meant to say Murphy's original question!!

[Proto]

Originally Posted by analogbear

Rb1 is not a commie...In fact, nobody is a real commie...Communism never was tried.

Would an Israeli kibbutz be the closest anyone has got to the communist utopia? Communal socialism.

No, that can't right. the USA and Israel are bosom buddies, Washington would never have anything to do with anything like that, surely?

[Mojave954]

Originally Posted by rb1

So, in your tiny, tiny, little intolerant mind, if anyone disagrees with anything that the US government or its military servants do, they should move to France? That is the most stupid, anti-American bullshit I have ever heard. It is the solemn duty of every US citizen to speak up when he or she disagrees with the government.

HOWEVER...

If you read what I said, and if you were able to comprehend what I said, then you might have noticed that I never said that I agreed with or that I disagreed with anything the US government or its military servants are doing. What I said is that many of the people who call Okinawa their home do not like the US military presense on their island, and that this does not make them racists, because they have a long history of experiences that lead them to dislike the US military presense. How and why that simple statement of fact leads you to think I'm anti-American, or that I should leave the country, is a mystery.

It is obvious that you do not have the breadth nor the experience to really have an input here.

Also, you now claim that you don't have a side or are just unwilling to make a commitment.

Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall. He didn't fall. HE WAS PUSHED.

You stated we occupied Okinawa. We don't occupy the island. Again, we are there at the request of the Japanese gov't. IF the people of Okinawa have an issue with the Americans being there, they need to take it up with the gov't. Not the Americans.

[rb1]

Originally Posted by Mojave954

It is obvious that you do not have the breadth nor the experience to really have an input here.

Really? How much breadth and experience is required? I said that a sizable number of Okinawan's dislike the US presense on their island. How stupid do you have to be to argue against that statement? It's about as controversial as saying there are 7 days in a week.

Originally Posted by Mojave954

Also, you now claim that you don't have a side or are just unwilling to make a commitment.

I am not making any new claim "now". I never said what I thought about the US military presense in Okinawa. I said that many Okinawans don't like it.

For saying that, I was attacked. The gigolo called me "an American hating, Hillary supporting flaming liberal Jane Fonda esc protester who wants to get out of the middle east ASAP at any cost AND you voted for John Kerry in the last national presidential election cycle." --wrong on almost every count! Then he accused me of spreading "[my] hate America politically correct BS" -- also entirely inaccurate.

Then you, Mojave, got fixated on the word "occupied", claiming that the US does not occupy Okinawa. But we do phyically occupy 1/5th of their land at present, and we did, from 1945 until 1972, militarily occupy and/or possess and rule the entire island. In 1972, we gave Okinawa to Japan. Many Okinawans did not like our occupation, they did not like being our "possession" and they don't like being part of Japan. How stupid does someone have to be to not understand that?

When you said, "If you don't like what your gov't/military is doing, move to France" and sinfuldragon said, "Right on brother!!!", I replied that that is "the most stupid, anti-American bullshit I have ever heard". It was utterly stupid for two reasons: (1) I had not once said anything about whether or not I like what the gov't/military is doing. I said that many Okinawans don't like it! Can't you tell the difference between these two? Or, are you actually so stupid that you can't see the difference? (2) Your statement was utterly anti-American because US citizens have an obligation to speak up when they are not happy with what their government is doing in their name. Elections are just one way we have to speak up. The government is supposed to serve the will of the people, not the other way around. Telling someone to leave the country because you imagine that they disagree with the government is both stupid, and anti-American.

Originally Posted by Mojave954

You stated we occupied Okinawa. We don't occupy the island. Again, we are there at the request of the Japanese gov't. IF the people of Okinawa have an issue with the Americans being there, they need to take it up with the gov't. Not the Americans.

Again, you misunderstand the fact that we did militarily occupy all of Okinawa, and that we are currently physically occupying about 1/5th of Okinawa. Then there is the whole problem of whether or not the Japanese government is the rightful ruler of Okinawa, but that is a whole other can of worms not worth getting into. The point is that many Okinawan's do not like the US (or the Japanese for that matter). I said it's no surprise that they don't want to make it easy/cheap for Americans to import US bikes into their tiny little island. I gave two explanations: (1) they don't like the US (see above), and (2) they don't have a lot of room for lots of imported bikes (less than 500 sq. mile island with about 100 sq. miles occupied by foreign military bases).

I will not attempt to clarify these points again. It is not possible to converse with people who can't separate what I said from what they imagine it might imply if I had said something entirely different.

[analogbear]

Or