[analogbear]

We need to start looking up through the posts...I see like 8 that I haven't read yet...

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by sinfuldragon

I want you to know I'm not ignoring this statement, I want to do some research on this matter so that I can make an intelligent response.

fair. Would you like a list of references? My last semester in Law School I took a Prisoner's Rights seminar, and each student did publishable research on a particular topic. I didn't do cap pun, but I think I still have that chick's paper floating around...

[sinfuldragon]

Originally Posted by analogbear

Mine too.

I've got no prob with getting paperwork in order. Funny how if you are asian, paperwork is no problem, but mexican? Forget it.

But why is that? Could it be that in general asians come more prepared for it? I know most of the asian population can speak english (borken sometimes but english all the same) while many mexicans don't speak a lick of english. I don't know if this is one of the requirements (it should be if it isn't!) but I know from what I have seen thats how it is.

[sinfuldragon]

Originally Posted by analogbear

fair. Would you like a list of references? My last semester in Law School I took a Prisoner's Rights seminar, and each student did publishable research on a particular topic. I didn't do cap pun, but I think I still have that chick's paper floating around...

would love it. I don't like to read one thing and call the topic researched so the more sources the better

[analogbear]

Language skills are not part of the "come here" equation. Plus, here in NYC, there are whole populations of non-english speakers who are citizens born here...That is my pet peeve, and I think a failure to assimilate. Thay wanna be their own plate of tapas, rather than part of the stew in the melting pot.

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by sinfuldragon

would love it. I don't like to read one thing and call the topic researched so the more sources the better

Lemme dig it up, and I will hit you in the afternoon tomorrow. I gotta long night of TV ahead..I DVR'd House, The Unit, NCIS, and a Voyager from this afternoon...I will be drunk, and up until about 2:30Am.

[Sprint1050DA]

Originally Posted by leelover

I am of the belief that all immigrants should have to meet the same requirements as far as citizenship, language, etc.

There is no "required" language here. We just have an English speaking majority.

Edit: guess I should have read all the posts instead of just the first few and then a reply.

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by Sprint1050DA

There is no "required" language here. We just have an English speaking majority.

Edit: guess I should have read all the posts instead of just the first few and then a reply.

No worries, sprint...There were a lot pretty quickly.

[Aychdot]

Not to get technical or anything, but I mostly agree with Dragon. I will agree that most young kids think that flipping burgers are beneath them, hell I had some kids refuse to shovel my snow for fair pay saying that my driveway was too big, I WAS GONNA HELP SINCE I WAS ALREADY DOING IT!

I think if you come to this country ILLEGALLY, and still have illegal status I think you should be sent home. The wet foot dry foot thing that they talk about in Florida for the Cubans is bullshit. I doesn't seem to apply to Hatians Domicans, Mexicans or anyone else.

If have a plan for people to come over here and do the work that no one else wants to do GET A VISA!

Our rights shouldn't apply to everyone here. If you are not supposed to be here, our constitution should not apply to you.

Bear, I don't have a problem with what you are saying. You are just looking at it from a lawyers point of view and not that of a common man.I will agree to be one of the common men because I don't understand why it takes 50 pages (Making this number up) to write a simple law, why can't it be done in a couple sentances.

WHEN IT ALL BOILS DOWN, IF YOU ARE NOT A CITIZEN OR DON'T HAVE A VALID VISA, BE PREPARED TO BE SENT HOME( or maybe just sit them in a raft in international waters ).

[jhonda41]

Originally Posted by Aychdot

Bear, I don't have a problem with what you are saying. You are just looking at it from a lawyers point of view and not that of a common man.I will agree to be one of the common men because I don't understand why it takes 50 pages (Making this number up) to write a simple law, why can't it be done in a couple sentances.

I think its important to look at it from all POVs..... it cant be summed up in a couple of sentences because its not that easy. As A.B. eluded to earlier (or was that the other thread?) if you kick all the illegals out right now... alot of people are ****ed.

Call me a pessimist but the immigration thing is a fustercluck that will not be remedied any time soon.

-jh
Proud supporter of going to avoid this altogether by becoming an illegal immigrant in Canada.

[leelover]

Originally Posted by analogbear

I've got no prob with getting paperwork in order. Funny how if you are asian, paperwork is no problem, but mexican? Forget it.

Why is this?

[leelover]

I have had quite a bit of contact with Mexican immigrants throughout my life. Migrant field workers and families in Illinois, and FL, working with them in the construction industry for over 20 years, being involved in hispanic communities in law enforcement, and having several Latino familes in our rentals as tenants.
I have to say that for the most part they have been solid, hard working, honest people, with the same concerns and priorities that most all of us have.

Still I don't think they should be here illegally. The other side of this is that they are often taken advantage of because they must live and work outside the system.

I wholeheartedly agree that the root of the problem lies with those who refuse to do the labor, and those who would rather pay the least possible on the bottom line, and thereby force businesses to use the cheapest labor possible. Even if it is illegal.

[sinfuldragon]

Originally Posted by Aychdot

Our rights shouldn't apply to everyone here. If you are not supposed to be here, our constitution should not apply to you.
.

Perhaps the best statement so far!!

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by sinfuldragon

Perhaps the best statement so far!!

Perhaps the most ridiculous statement so far. Nothing in the Constitution requires a person to be a citizen before the basic human rights are afforded to them. If you want them to become citizens before they get a pension here, or before they get a passport, or before our embassies overseas intervene on their behalf, cool. But, to enslave them or fail to assist them with food, shelter, and medicine would be cruel human rights violations. What kind of enlightened example would that be?

[sinfuldragon]

Originally Posted by analogbear

Perhaps the most ridiculous statement so far. Nothing in the Constitution requires a person to be a citizen before the basic human rights are afforded to them. If you want them to become citizens before they get a pension here, or before they get a passport, or before our embassies overseas intervene on their behalf, cool. But, to enslave them or fail to assist them with food, shelter, and medicine would be cruel human rights violations. What kind of enlightened example would that be?

It would be the kind of enlightenment that says we are tired of being walked on. If an illegals rights were violated while we were tracking his ass down to deport him I'm not going to lose ANY sleep over it. It would be the enlightenment that says over here we have structure (yeah I know we currently don't) and that if you don't follow these structured rules to get here legally but instead try to evade the law then there will be consequences for your actions.

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by sinfuldragon

It would be the kind of enlightenment that says we are tired of being walked on. If an illegals rights were violated while we were tracking his ass down to deport him I'm not going to lose ANY sleep over it. It would be the enlightenment that says over here we have structure (yeah I know we currently don't) and that if you don't follow these structured rules to get here legally but instead try to evade the law then there will be consequences for your actions.

Do you really believe rights should be suspended for illegals? Do they represent that much of a scary problem? What about a defector? According to your reasoning, they should be deported too...The cold war would have turned hot really fast, then...The 9/11 terrorists were heree seemingly-legally...That seems like a larger problem. We just don't waste that much money on illegals, and they don't cause so many problems for our crj system or societal fabric in and of themselves, to warrant such rabid anti-human-rights treatment.

[sinfuldragon]

Originally Posted by analogbear

Do you really believe rights should be suspended for illegals? Do they represent that much of a scary problem? What about a defector? According to your reasoning, they should be deported too...The cold war would have turned hot really fast, then...The 9/11 terrorists were heree seemingly-legally...That seems like a larger problem. We just don't waste that much money on illegals, and they don't cause so many problems for our crj system or societal fabric in and of themselves, to warrant such rabid anti-human-rights treatment.

My thoughts of swift, harsh actions are pointed to all of the people breaking the laws. You shot someone, someone shoots you, stole - cut off their hands, etc etc. I think the reason that no one gives a **** in this nation is because of how pussy footed we are with everything. Of course they will continue to come here illegally when all we do is send them back home (on our dollar). Once we step up and say there is a problem that requires swift and just (i know this changes in the eye of the beholder) actions and stop worrying about hurting their feelings then maybe we'll get some freaking results. They broke the law to get here and then turn to the law to help them out, oh hell no. Their disrespect for the law is what should strip them of any rights that they would have been granted had they come here legally.
The 9-11 people... You're right our system should be even stricter but you yourself said as it is its too hard for some to get in here legally. So if you take the stance that we should tighten the rains on one how can you be so relaxed on the other?

[sinfuldragon]

Originally Posted by analogbear

fair. Would you like a list of references? My last semester in Law School I took a Prisoner's Rights seminar, and each student did publishable research on a particular topic. I didn't do cap pun, but I think I still have that chick's paper floating around...

here is one thing that keeps coming up... The costs of carrying out (i.e. incarceration and/or execution) a death sentence were about half the costs of carrying out a non-death sentence in a comparable case. The trials, appeals and such are more but all the Numbers that I'm looking at show that bottom line its cheaper to kill em then leave em in jail forever. While all together (pre trial trial apeals time spent in a jail then finally the execution) it costs more we would still save millions if they were convicted and then put down instead of keeping them in prision and granting them countless appeals.

[bjay51d]

I live in central new jersey...Theres not alot of farms.So these illegals make a vline straight for construction and factories.All while they have the misses droppin babies and collecting benefits.Not to mention the three other realtives doing the same thing in the same house.It a direct assult on the middle class in this area.**** they dont even have to look for work the loiter on the corners and work come to them...

[jhonda41]

Originally Posted by sinfuldragon

While all together (pre trial trial apeals time spent in a jail then finally the execution) it costs more we would still save millions if they were convicted and then put down instead of keeping them in prision and granting them countless appeals.

So are you going to be the one to sit down and re-write the structure of our judicial system? the appeals process are part of our constitutional rights....

Are there so many illegals on death row that this is even an issue? I have more of an issue with the amount of money judges/politicians get paid than how much it costs to keep someone incarcerated.

-jh

[sinfuldragon]

Originally Posted by jhonda41

So are you going to be the one to sit down and re-write the structure of our judicial system?

-jh

Wouldn't do any good, I'm in no position to do anything about it. Voice my opinion, yeah because they always listen to the little guy. Appeals yes, sitting and waiting for years on end, no. How long did it take to get Saddam up in the gallows... not too long. I think we could stand to learn a thing or two from other countries about swift action.

Originally Posted by jhonda41

Are there so many illegals on death row that this is even an issue?

No there aren't and it really isn't an issue (at least not this issue). This was pertaining to a post earlier between AB and I where we touched the topic, I told him that I wanted to do some research before I answered, I was able to do some digging today so I put in my $.02.

[jhonda41]

Originally Posted by sinfuldragon

No there aren't and it really isn't an issue (at least not this issue). This was pertaining to a post earlier between AB and I where we touched the topic, I told him that I wanted to do some research before I answered, I was able to do some digging today so I put in my $.02.

When I did my research on this some years ago I was suprised by the figures too. Sucks that its more expensive to kill 'em... whats worse is that capital punishment hasn't proven to be a deterrent for murder either.

-jh

[dattaway]

It only works for the super rich. Its zero-sum economics.

[sinfuldragon]

Originally Posted by jhonda41

When I did my research on this some years ago I was suprised by the figures too. Sucks that its more expensive to kill 'em...

Agreed!

Originally Posted by jhonda41

whats worse is that capital punishment hasn't proven to be a deterrent for murder either.-jh

thats because our capital punishment is a joke. Fight it long enough and evidence could be lost = Get off or you'll get a lesser conviction = Life in prision instead of death. Or maybe I've just got some of my wires crossed and I'm seeing it all wrong.