[.OrgOwner]

Originally Posted by babisgr

Anyway,all this talk is just a matter of opinnion,there are many diferent sides in all stories,i have my opinions,you have yours...i think we atleast agree in bikes...thats something!

Your right and it would not be much fun if we all came here and agreed with each other now would it? It's good to get an idea from another perspective even if you don't like it.

[Maholli]

Originally Posted by slickwill

Like I said if it Cuba had it "going on" there would be people in boats in Florida heading for Cuba, not the other way around.

Very well put, its hard to argue with that, thats exactly whats going on..

[dicknose]

Originally Posted by denzee

If America is hated around the world like many suggest, it's because of one thing. Jelousy!

Not even close!

I think the word you are looking for is arrogance.

In terms of being disliked its nothing to do with jealousy and a lot to do with using their military and economic might.
The US is disliked by many people in western nations who have no reasons to be jealous.

My main peeve with the US is its abuse of the UN security council. They are happy to use their veto power but when they dont get the vote they simply ignore the council and say they will do it alone.
Throw in the continuing embargo of Cuba (why - that should have ended with the cold war) and heck even keeping the base in Cuba - how would the US feel if say China had a base on US soil?

There are lots of things the US could do to be more of a "team player" that would have negligible affect on them but a lot of positive on their image.

The US is a great place, with great people. But its foreign policy is terrible considering the power it has. Instead of leading by example, it leads by fear and might. Sadly it relies on having its public/voters thinking that the world is out to get them to do this. Which all plays into a terrible cycle - the terrorists want the US to react so they look bad, the US is happy to use the terrorists as an excuse to act and bingo both sides want a war while the civilians are caught in the middle.

[forceten]

Bush is just a puppet. You guys don't think he is the mastermind behind running the country do you? He just isn't smart enough, the people in power use him as they see fit.

And the next election won't do any good. No matter who you vote for and who gets in, the same people in power with the money are ruling the country and the world.

Now if you truly had more then a 2 party system with the possibility of an independant winning the election, well then we might have something.

the last independant who came even a little close of having a possibility was Ross Pero . And they just threatened him and his family until he backed out.

[Maholli]

While I agree with alot of the comments everyone is saying about the US, its funny that over the last 100-150years whenever all the other countries around the world where threatened by other powers they all came running to the US for help in bailing them out.. And I wounder why then nobody complained about the US, after all we did give alot of American lives for other peoples freedom..

[dicknose]

Originally Posted by Maholli

While I agree with alot of the comments everyone is saying about the US, its funny that over the last 100-150years whenever all the other countries around the world where threatened by other powers they all came running to the US for help in bailing them out.. And I wounder why then nobody complained about the US, after all we did give alot of American lives for other peoples freedom..

Yeah?

Is this another - we saved your butts in WW2 story.
I dont remember the US coming when asked, I thought they came when attacked by the Japanese.

Hmm - Australia went to WW1 to help (was never threatened)
Even in WW2 we went to help before war came near us (certainly didnt wait till Japan attacked Australia to join in)
Korea - we were there
Vietnam - yes again (when asked by the US)
Throw in Afghanistan and Iraq where the US started and asked for us...

We might not be as big as the US, but Australia (and other plenty of other places) have joined in to help when needed. We have never waited till we were threatened to join in.
But ask most americans and they will have the "we saved your butts in WW2" attitude as if they single handedly won the thing.

The US military might be big but they certainly havent always been keen to help and several times have started something and asked others to come along.

So Id say in terms of defending others the US has been good, but hardly alone in that category, certainly not at the top of the selfless list.

[Maholli]

Last time I checked the US and Australia have always helped each other.. My comment wasn't directed towards Australia... And it also wasn't a "we saved you butts in WW2, but since you brought that up... What do you think would of happened if the US didn't send troops into Europe and North Africa? Also WW2 isn't the only one where the US was called upon to save the day.. Im not a big fan of US policy right now at all.. Don't get it twisted.. The US more times than they should of have forced their beliefs and policies on alot of countries when they should of just minded there own business..


My earlier comment was directed towards the "us Americans are going to destroy the world"... Not the Aussie's.

[Surffrog]

Originally Posted by Maholli

While I agree with alot of the comments everyone is saying about the US, its funny that over the last 100-150years whenever all the other countries around the world where threatened by other powers they all came running to the US for help in bailing them out.. And I wounder why then nobody complained about the US, after all we did give alot of American lives for other peoples freedom..

The Brits only finished paying for your 'assistance' during WWII about 30 odd years ago.
I don't understand why you're wondering why people don't complain about the US when needing your assistance. If they did start they wouldn't get the help, would they? While that might be hypocrisy at play, 'needs must when the devil drives.'

[Surffrog]

Actually, Dicknose, the Ozzie's sent in their SAS to Vietnam before the US asked and advised them not to go in. The US asked the Brits, who sent in their SAS and they came back saying the same thing.

[Maholli]

Originally Posted by Surffrog

The Brits only finished paying for your 'assistance' during WWII about 30 odd years ago.

Like I said before Im not going to say the US is great and almighty.. I feel like to much money is wasted every other place in the world and not on or own Country.. The US is a mess internally in alot of ways.. Its just kind of silly to say the US is going to destroy the world.. I would probally agree more with the fact the US is going to destroy themselves before I would concede that we are going to destroy the world..

[Surffrog]

Originally Posted by Maholli

The US more times than they should of have forced their beliefs and policies on alot of countries when they should of just minded there own business..

I have to say that we Brits were really bad for that, too!

[Maholli]

Your right Surffrog, all major powers are guilty of pushing there way of governing and beliefs on what ever part of the world they live in and sometimes in parts where they don't... Its just how its always been and Im sad to say it will always be that way.. I personally think every country should be allowed to decide whatever form of governing they choose.. OF course that's to a certain extent.. The countries claiming they want to wipe other countries of the face of the Earth need to be looked at by everyone...

[dicknose]

Originally Posted by Maholli

What do you think would of happened if the US didn't send troops into Europe and North Africa? Also WW2 isn't the only one where the US was called upon to save the day..

What would have happened if England, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and a bunch of other countries didnt fight?

You certainly cant say the US was called upon to save the day. They played a part, certainly a big part. But they only came in to the whole affair after they were attacked.

My earlier comment was directed towards the "us Americans are going to destroy the world"... Not the Aussie's.

And Im not sure how it relates to that.
You can "save the day" back in 1940s and still be the most likely to cause the destruction of the world!

[Maholli]

Come on where do you think everybody got the weapons and machinery to fight the war? And IM talking about USSR, England, Canada, and Australia? The US supplied just about everyone.. Without the weapons of war, it wouldn't of mattered.. England would of fallen very quickly I hate to say during the Bliz, if it wasn't for the convoys from the US.. We where sending pilots and supplies before we even where attacked by Japan.. And we where losing men before we where attacked by Japan...

[Surffrog]

Originally Posted by Maholli

Come on where do you think everybody got the weapons and machinery to fight the war? And IM talking about USSR, England, Canada, and Australia? The US supplied just about everyone.. Without the weapons of war, it wouldn't of mattered.. England would of fallen very quickly I hate to say during the Bliz, if it wasn't for the convoys from the US.. We where sending pilots and supplies before we even where attacked by Japan.. And we where losing men before we where attacked by Japan...

This is absolutely true. And who supplied Osama when the Russians went into Afghanistan?

[Maholli]

As to the war in Europe, the German declaration of war against the US on December 11, 1941, is the official start of formal US involvement. However, the US had been actively involved in the European war long before that.

The Neutrality Acts were amended twice, first to make it possible for the UK to purchase war materials from the US for use against Germany and then again, with the Cash and Carry amendments, to make it easier for the British to do so. The Brits were still losing, so the Neutrality Acts were supplemented by the Bases for Boats program then replaced by Lend Lease in March, 1941. After the Soviets repelled Barbarossa, Lend Lease was expanded to include them. The USSR didn't get much (only about 20% of the total package) and got very little in the way of weapons, which was fine because Soviet weapons were superior to anything in the American arsenal at the time, but the consumer and manufacturing goods, and notably the trucks, the Soviets got enabled them to concentrate on the arms production that eventually defeated the Wehrmacht.

In his Fireside Chat of September 11, 1941, FDR all but declared war on Germany when he announced (bragged) that the US would sink all German warships on sight the moment they were first observed in waters the US unilaterally termed it's 'defensive zone'. Not coincidentally, that defensive zone extended from the east coast, past Newfoundland, Greenland and Iceland and almost to the British and Irish ports to which the 'neutral' US was shipping war supplies to one combatant specifically for use against the other. German U-Boats, engaged in a declared war, had made it clear that they would sink vessels laden with arms and munitions destined for her enemies. Common sense dictated that such was going to occur. Only a liar, a hypocrite or a fool would paint a target on his back, parade around in the middle of a rifle range and then complain about getting shot at. FDR was NOT a fool. He wanted to help the British in the war in the worst way and he made no bones about publishing that fact. His policy of provocation against Germany and Japan ultimately got him his wish. On the other hand, the US wanted to see the British Empire dismantled, and the delay in full-scale US involvement in the war granted that wish. One can have one's cake and eat it too if one is devious enough and patient enough.

The US was NOT a neutral nation in the 30's and early 40's and increasing became more blatant in its aid and assistance to the Allies. Japan, then Germany, did the logical, sensible, natural and inevitable thing and finally brought the US into the war in name, US actions already having involved Uncle Sam in both theaters in practice long before. US histories try to paint the US as an innocent and a neutral but of course we weren't..

[Maholli]

Originally Posted by Surffrog

This is absolutely true. And who supplied Osama when the Russians went into Afghanistan?

We did of course... Like I said already I agree with most of the posts in this thread.. The US is to blame for alot of the worlds problems.. But I can assure you the US isn't going to destroy the World.. And we really did kind of save Europe during WW2 and that's not to say we could of done it without everyones help either..

[Surffrog]

Originally Posted by Maholli

... The US supplied just about everyone...

And still are. And therein lies the rub.
But I do agree with you on your previous posts, Maholli.
I guess, for the most part, my concerns are the lack of transparancy or, more to the point, the lack of my understanding surrounding the actions of your secret services (see my previous post).

[Maholli]

Surffrog my friend I couldn't agree more with what your saying, transparancy doesn't exist in the US goverment.. I personally feel like it needs to be purged, from falsifying classified material at the UN, to funding Osama and Saddam in the 70 and 80's, the Bay of Pigs, I mean the list could go on and on... The US has alot of blood on its hands.. But the people for the most part that make up the US are good hard working people that just want peace and to be able to feed their family and afford to go to the DR, we are spending billions in Iraq and are health care system is a joke..

[babisgr]

US saved ITS SELF on ww2....what would happend if hole europe had fallen?who would it be next?Actualy Rusia marked the end (the Stalingrand battle) with GREAT casualties...millions.

[Surffrog]

Originally Posted by Maholli

Surffrog my friend I couldn't agree more with what your saying, transparancy doesn't exist in the US goverment.. I personally feel like it needs to be purged, from falsifying classified material at the UN, to funding Osama and Saddam in the 70 and 80's, the Bay of Pigs, I mean the list could go on and on... The US has alot of blood on its hands.. But the people for the most part that make up the US are good hard working people that just want peace and to be able to feed their family and afford to go to the DR, we are spending billions in Iraq and are health care system is a joke..

And, like I said, we (the Brits) were no better before that!

[Maholli]

Originally Posted by babisgr

US saved ITS SELF on ww2....what would happend if hole europe had fallen?who would it be next?Actualy Rusia marked the end (the Stalingrand battle) with GREAT casualties...millions.

Russia wouldn't and couldn't of made it with out the aid of the US and the Brits, they would of starved, and Stalingrad, which is often considered the turning point of World War II in Europe and was arguably the bloodiest battle in human history which had combined casualties estimated above 1.5 million was horrific for both sides. And yes with the surrender of the German 7th Army at Stalingrad it did contribute to the end for Germany.. Which really had more to do with a no retreat policy and over extended lines and Hitlers infatuation with keeping Stalingrad more for his own ego and of course the winter.. You are right on about that one.. But the US didn't save itself, it saved Europe(with the help of the allies).. Germany never was a threat to US soil ever.. And Russia did lose the most estimates are around 35 million lives. The US could of just focused on the pacific theater, but of course came to the aid of Europe well before Pearl Harbor... God bless the USA I bet your thinking.. Like you said earlier, atleast we love bikes together...

[clive crompton]

Originally Posted by babisgr

US saved ITS SELF on ww2....what would happend if hole europe had fallen?who would it be next?Actualy Rusia marked the end (the Stalingrand battle) with GREAT casualties...millions.

OH yes mate

[slickwill]

I've decided that ya'll are right, America sucks, I'm going to send a letter to Castro tomorrow to see if he'll let me move to Cuba. I wonder how the skiing is there. I guess I'll know soon, I'll be sure to let ya'll know. I hope Fireblades.org is on the approved list of websites down there? I guess I might just have to communicate by letters to Maholli.

[babisgr]

dont go there...they are savage communists trying to kill you.
The us part of cuba is even cooler! (guantanamo)

[Surffrog]

Originally Posted by slickwill