The leader of the free world -

Maholli · 11-28-2007, 7:33 PM

Thats just it Dicknose, you have got it all wrong about Americans.. Most Americans don't have that attitude and if you do a little more homework and you will find that most Americans would rather the US focus on the home front verses problems in other parts of the world.. Also if you check the latest polls not to many people agree with what the US is doing in other parts of the world.. We don't want the US to be leader of the free world we just want the US to fix the problems in the US... The title of this thread im pretty sure was kind of meant to be a joke..

dicknose · 11-28-2007, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maholli

Thats just it Dicknose, you have got it all wrong about Americans..

Really?
So the posts here, even the title of this post, the people I spoke to when I lived in America, stuff you see in papers and on tv, even your posts...

"While I agree with alot of the comments everyone is saying about the US, its funny that over the last 100-150years whenever all the other countries around the world where threatened by other powers they all came running to the US for help in bailing them out.. And I wounder why then nobody complained about the US, after all we did give alot of American lives for other peoples freedom.."

America gave lives for other peoples freedom.
So what?
As I said, you guys werent the only ones. But it seems a common attitude that the US is the only good guy and the rest of the world owes them for it.

You probably dont notice it - but its an almost pervasive attitude amongst americans.

Quote:

Also if you check the latest polls not to many people agree with what the US is doing in other parts of the world.. We don't want the US to be leader of the free world we just want the US to fix the problems in the US...

While many dont agree with whats happening in Iraq and Afghanistan that seems more about the specifics of these and the politics.

The whole "freedom fries" thing, while a bit of a joke was another example of the US attitude of "they owe us and should be thankful".

Heard lots of bitching about the UN when it didnt agree with the US, never heard anyone say that security council permanent members veto (used mostly by the US) was an extreme power that should be changed. The world will do what the UN says when its what the US says, but screw the system when it doesnt agree and say how badly flawed it is.

As I said - you probably dont notice it, but its something that people outside of america do see and notice. Its a dangerous arrogance that comes from being the unchallenged power in the world and it has crept thru pretty much the whole of american society. Im sure it started as well natured patriotism, but probably over the last 20 years its got worse and worse and Bush unfortunately plays on it (or even really believes it himself)

It is this attitude, not jealous that is the reason the US is disliked.
And it seems that most americans just cant see this or even understand it - that they think its jealousy just shows how badly out of touch they are with most of the rest of the world.

Maholli · 11-29-2007, 12:08 AM

It seems you just don't have a grasp on really what Americans are all about, that isn't to say I don't respect your opinion just that your alittle misrepresenting what mainstream Americans are about.. Thats ok, all I can say is that the American people I know including myself are completely opposite of what you describe for the most part.. Thats not to say where not patriotic.. Also almost everyone I know thinks the UN is a joke.. I totally agree with your comment about the UN.. And like I said Bush is most likely going to go down as one of the worst presidents in US history.. But dicknose if you ever wanna come to America again and have some "freedom fries" then my door is open to you..

(the freedom fries was overplayed by the media)..

jaim · 11-29-2007, 2:38 AM

Haven't been here in a while. Glad to see the politics threads still alive.
And nice to see folks from other parts of the world posting. Now back to the topic at hand. G.W. is a puppet for multinational oil cartels. He does not currently represent the majority of what Americans believe or want. Unfortunately the U.S. democracy has broken. Even our representatives to the federal government are not representing the will of their constituents (the public that voted them into office.) And it just doesn't seem to make people in the U.S. angry. So crappy selfish elected officials keep getting re-elected.

Surffrog · 11-29-2007, 3:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dicknose

My point is more about the attitude that many americans have today - the "we saved your butts". While in many ways its true, it gives a very bad perspective to make it seem like the US was the only one involved and stepped in to save everyone else. Certainly nobody should feel they "owe" the US anything. I could easily argue that other countries are owed more (especially relative to their size)

While I agree with you, I have a feeling this attitude has, in large part, come about from the Joe Public of America being told that everybody hates them. First method of defense is offense.
The educated among the US (and I believe we are communicating with a few of them here) know there are quite a lot of problems with their system and say so. Didn't Maholli do just that? I think he did. But it's not like they can do a lot about it. We (the Brits) are p*ssed of with our government but the bast**ds got voted back in, twice. Didn't they?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dicknose

Its a common attitude I see posted by many americans whenever war is mentioned and shows the sort of inward looking attitude that defines what is wrong with america.

Part of the problem here, I believe, is due to the lack of travelling for a lot of Americans (but by no means all) and therefore they suffer a lack of understanding of other cultures that would normally be imparted by it. Again I'm talking about the uneducated, untravelled here, so guys please don't leap on the defensive. I'm not necessarily referring to you.

I am quite well-spoken, with a well-defined English accent. So I found it humorous to be asked by some Americans, "Do you come from Australia?"
I once had a conversation with one American (while travelling around the US) that went something like this.
The American: "So, where ya from?"
Me: "England."
The American: "Where's that?"
Me: "What do you mean, where's that?"
The American: "I mean England. Is it in Europe?"
Me: "Well, lets put it like this, if you left the US from the east coast and kept going, we'd be the second country you would get to. We're just after Ireland."
The American: "Oh, I guess I should of known that."
It should be pointed out that this conversation took place just moments after he had told me, "I've travelled all over the world. Oh, yeah, I've bin ta every state in America." His words, not mine.

The other problem for the rest of us is that there really are an awful lot of people who refer to themselves as Americans. So, just by sheer numbers, the rest of us are going to come across a lot of stupid 'Americans'. However, I can't count the number of f**king stupid so-called Brits I've come across.
Therefore it's interesting how often we don't make mention of how many intelligent one's we come aross.

That said, the '...terrible patriotism that is twisted...' is, as you say, doing America harm. Just look at the UN-United Kingdom now as an example.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dicknose

The original comment about why people hate america and it being jealousy was a laugh. As I said, many westerners dont like the US policy not out of jealousy but because its arrogant. Id guess that many arabs dont like it because of its interference.

Nevertheless, it is, in part, true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dicknose

Bush's "you are with us or against us" sums it up beautifully. And come backs like "we saved you in WW2" just adds more arrogance to the situation.

I couldn't agree more. It's comments like his that just perpetuate the problem. So what are we all going to do about it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dicknose

Yes the USA is the big dog, but if it was a bit more humble and respectful in dealing with the rest of the world it wouldnt have the image it does and wouldnt be disliked by so many people from many different backgrounds.

AbsoBLOODYlutely!!!!!

Maholli · 11-29-2007, 3:37 AM

Surffrog, finally someone who really understands some of my previous posts.. Trust me Dicknose I thought Bushes "you are with us or against us" remark was totally stupid and arrogant.. And like I said the WW2 remark is pretty much true if you just do your homework.. WW2 couldn't of been won without the US, and for the last time Im not saying we could of won without everyone elses help either.. It wasn't meant to sound arrogant..

Surffrog if your ever in the US your 100 percent welcome at my home.. The Derby is a pretty awsome event.. Plus I've got a nice blade you can ride while your in town..

I've got quite a few friends in Liverpool and Merseyside, I really love going to visit them in the UK..

UncleJesse954 · 11-29-2007, 3:46 AM

it's the oil. it's always been the oil. bush just wants the oil. "if you're not with us your against us" could mean lots of things. "obey us or we will crush you" that sound about right?

Surffrog · 11-29-2007, 3:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maholli

Thats just it Dicknose, you have got it all wrong about Americans.. Most Americans don't have that attitude and if you do a little more homework and you will find that most Americans would rather the US focus on the home front verses problems in other parts of the world.. Also if you check the latest polls not to many people agree with what the US is doing in other parts of the world.. We don't want the US to be leader of the free world we just want the US to fix the problems in the US... The title of this thread im pretty sure was kind of meant to be a joke..

Maholli, I feel for you. Unfortunately, this thread was bound to be indicative of the general feeling towards America's (and the allied nations) actions around the world today.
I hate to bring this up now but it's also quite relevant as everyone's having a pop at America and Bush for going to Iraq right now. When Blair decided he was going to follow Bush on his *rampage to Iraq, the British public rallied in the million plus outside Buckingham palace to stop him from doing so. That, to my knowledge, has never happened in England before. Blair, of course, was only really thinking about his future and not those of our (or your in Bush's case) troops. The real losers here are our and your boys who got sent to war knowing that there was no logical reason in going (Iraq, I mean).

(*see the Crusades conducted by the English many moons ago, which the Muslims certainly remind us of all the time)

dicknose · 11-29-2007, 3:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maholli

It seems you just don't have a grasp on really what Americans are all about

Where Id say Americans have no grasp on how they are seen by the rest of the world. Its hard to see what Im talking about when you are surrounded by it and have no comparison.

Yes I understand that lots of people think Bush is a joke, but the sort of attitude Im talking about still comes out in people who are anti-bush and anti-war. I guess part of the point is that what would seem to be a typical "moderate" american comes across as the equivalent "extremist" in many other places.

Would you be happy with Russian bases on US soil? North Korea have ships permanently based in the Gulf of Mexico?
When was the last time you heard an american say "we shouldnt be in Cuba?". Ask some people and see what they say - bet you get a lot of "we are there and let them try and kick us out". The whole concept of what might be moral from a more neutral point of view or even considering the others point of view totally disappears in any external conflict and the "might is right" or "they owe us" attitude appears.

Seriously - ask some people what they think about Gitmo (not camp xray or delta, just the base in general). Try something like "Cuba doesnt want us there, shouldnt we pull out, after all it is their country and if they dont want us shouldnt we leave". Its a nice easy topic, its not Iraq or North Korea, there is no risk to the US by leaving, the issue is basically national pride and not wanting to take a backward step (especially not to a communist dictator!)

To ask a bit of a personal question - have you lived in another country or spent much time around people who havent been in the US long?

Im not saying people from other countries are perfect! We all have our patriotic quirks. Aussies (and Kiwis) are way over patriotic about our sports.

But I bet you will be hard pressed to find an american who would be happy to put national pride aside when considering any foreign issue. Not looking weak is far more important than doing the right thing. And its because of this out of proportion patriotism.

Surffrog · 11-29-2007, 3:49 AM

I meant to include the names of all the Allied nation's troops that have actually been fighting and dying, but this way saved typing and time. No offence meant to anybody.

Maholli · 11-29-2007, 4:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dicknose

Would you be happy with Russian bases on US soil? North Korea have ships permanently based in the Gulf of Mexico?
When was the last time you heard an american say "we shouldnt be in Cuba?". Ask some people and see what they say - bet you get a lot of "we are there and let them try and kick us out". The whole concept of what might be moral from a more neutral point of view or even considering the others point of view totally disappears in any external conflict and the "might is right" or "they owe us" attitude appears.

Seriously - ask some people what they think about Gitmo (not camp xray or delta, just the base in general). Try something like "Cuba doesnt want us there, shouldnt we pull out, after all it is their country and if they dont want us shouldnt we leave". Its a nice easy topic, its not Iraq or North Korea, there is no risk to the US by leaving, the issue is basically national pride and not wanting to take a backward step (especially not to a communist dictator!)

Thats just it my friend, I feel like whatever the US is doing then every other Country should be allowed to do so.. Most people I know think Gitmo should be closed down, I sure do.. Cuba is by no means a threat.. I agree with you absolutely on that comment..

Quote:

Originally Posted by dicknose

To ask a bit of a personal question - have you lived in another country or spent much time around people who havent been in the US long

Yes I been lucky to travel quite a bit.. I go over sea's several times a year, and my family was involved with Hooters in AUS(Parramatta) and the UK(Nottinghamshire) which allowed me to spend some time overseas. When I wasn't working all the time I was lucky enought to spend a whole summer in the "Outback".. I love AUS probally better than any place in the world.. I also like the UK, France, and Germany... To think about it I like just about everywhere.. But I have never been to Russia or Cuba or Iran or North Korea and wouldn't want to go..

clive crompton · 11-29-2007, 5:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaim

Haven't been here in a while. Glad to see the politics threads still alive.
And nice to see folks from other parts of the world posting. Now back to the topic at hand. G.W. is a puppet for multinational oil cartels. He does not currently represent the majority of what Americans believe or want. Unfortunately the U.S. democracy has broken. Even our representatives to the federal government are not representing the will of their constituents (the public that voted them into office.) And it just doesn't seem to make people in the U.S. angry. So crappy selfish elected officials keep getting re-elected.

Ih a get rid of bush and u.s be a better place

Surffrog · 11-29-2007, 5:40 AM

Maholli,
You and I have been so close in proximity to each other it's rediculus. I used to live in Epsom (the home of the Derby for those of you who haven't been there).
Epsom Downs, which is the kind of massive hill that the Derby is run on, is about 2 - 3 miles away from my parents old house. How outrageous is that?

Surffrog · 11-29-2007, 5:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clive crompton

Ih a get rid of bush and u.s be a better place

I think we (almost) all agree on that one.

Maholli · 11-29-2007, 6:10 AM

Almost all of the US feels the same way...

denzee · 11-29-2007, 8:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UncleJesse954

it's the oil. it's always been the oil. bush just wants the oil. "if you're not with us your against us" could mean lots of things. "obey us or we will crush you" that sound about right?

If I hear this statement one more time I think I'm going to puke. Hey Surffrog, this is classic "water cooler talk". The extent this war has to do with oil, is keeping the worlds largest supplies of oil out of the control of repressive regimes and dangerous dictaters who use its wealth soley to hurt other people. How much oil has the US gotten from Iraq so far...0. Where does the US get most of its foreign oil from....Canada. Nuff said about that!
Has been all lot of great dicussion on this thread. Cool to see all the points of view. Some are very good and make you wonder and other are downright misguided. I have enjoyed it.
Here is a hypothetical to throw out there. Iran with Ahmadinejad as President have achieved their desires to obtain Nuclear power. What and who does anything about it? You could believe him and his claim that Nuclear power is only to be used for power generation that his Counrty is in short supply. Do we let him go? US make precision strikes on the reactor? Any other Country going to do anything? Keep in mind that Russia and Putin are helping Iran now to build this reactor and have warned anybody, do not interfer even with a threat or they will react. Unclear as to how. This part about Russia is true not hypothetical. I'll save my views until others get out there.

babisgr · 11-29-2007, 8:46 AM

If you ask me...we shouldnt let iran use nuclear technology for anything...but we shouldnt let USA..RUSSIA..and all the others.Thats the problem with you americans (goverment)...you always act like someone has to get your permition for something that you first off all not only discovered it (arguably) but USED it in a war that was already won.If somenone is dangerous with nuclear.....that seems to be the US.

Surffrog · 11-29-2007, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by denzee

If I hear this statement one more time I think I'm going to puke. Hey Surffrog, this is classic "water cooler talk".

Not by me it isn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by babisgr

If you ask me...we shouldnt let iran use nuclear technology for anything...but we shouldnt let USA..RUSSIA..and all the others.Thats the problem with you americans (goverment)...you always act like someone has to get your permition for something that you first off all not only discovered it (arguably) but USED it in a war that was already won.If somenone is dangerous with nuclear.....that seems to be the US.

Ok, babisgr a little history for you. Straight after FDR's planes dropped those bad boys on Japan, Winston Churchill (a very intelligent man, imho) sent a letter to FDR congratulating him on saving millions of lives fruitlessly being wasted when, as you said, the war had already been won but the enemy wouldn't accept it.
Don't get me wrong, here. The damage inflicted by those weapons was devasting. Hundreds of thousands of lives were taken as a consequence. However, the number of lives saved by the war ending right there and then coupled with the number of lives saved since just because the world had witnessed what could happen in the event of nuclear war is imeasurable. It is, in fact, widely accepted that this is why the cold war never went into fullscale nuclear battle. Maybe why the Cuban missile crisis never went all the way...
Maybe nobody should have nuclear capability, but we cannot go back now. The reason America is so concerned about such countries having nukes isn't because they expect you to "get their permission first" but because they know full well what damage could be wrought by some nutter with his finger on the button with no checks and balances.
If we're going to argue over American decision-making babisgr, lets try to do it over issues where our countries don't get any benefit from the Americans getting their way, eh?

denzee · 11-29-2007, 11:42 AM

That's cool Surffrog but I'd be interested in your thoughts about the hypothetical I presented. Boy, considering we're mostly blade owners and into bikes, who would have thought that so many are really into all this politics stuff. Pretty neat because it's my favourite passtime next to my RR.

gthotchkiss · 11-29-2007, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dicknose

Yes the USA is the big dog, but if it was a bit more humble and respectful in dealing with the rest of the world it wouldnt have the image it does and wouldnt be disliked by so many people from many different backgrounds.

Yup... thats a good call. Bush should go ahead and respect the terrorists, maybe then they would stop.

Being humble to the rest of the world isn't going to help anything. Other countries wouldn't respect us anymore, they would just want more handouts. Maybe we should just say screw all of ya'll, pull all of our troops into our country then bomb the fu** outta anyone that looks at us funny.

UncleJesse954 · 11-29-2007, 4:31 PM

he didn't say terrorists. he's just talking about how america displays our dominance. example putting up bases anywhere we please. and yes we almost DO bomb the **** out of anybody who opposes us

Bigdaddy75 · 11-29-2007, 6:55 PM

From an outside perspective we get the impression that the US is very much anti Bush. You must be short on alternatives or your system has had a total failure. So tell us who is most likely to get the job once Bush is gone? Is there anyone with any balls who can stand up and actually make a difference?

dicknose · 11-29-2007, 7:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gthotchkiss

Yup... thats a good call. Bush should go ahead and respect the terrorists, maybe then they would stop.

Being humble to the rest of the world isn't going to help anything. Other countries wouldn't respect us anymore, they would just want more handouts. Maybe we should just say screw all of ya'll, pull all of our troops into our country then bomb the fu** outta anyone that looks at us funny.

Ive got no time for terrorist or bending to their demands.
But you dont treat a whole country or race or religious group as terrorist because some very small number of them are terrorists.

And yes other countries would respect you a lot more. Especially ones that are supposedly friendly. The image of the US in places like Australia, UK, France and many other western nations is seriously hurt by the "our way or else" attitude. Its all the worse when the US talks up "freedom" and "democracy" but then ignores that on a world scale. Where are those principles when the US says it gets to say what other countries can and cant do. Ignore the UN when it doesnt go your way, but threaten others if they dont go along with UN decisions that you like.

Im not saying you have to bend over to everyone, but if your country cant even act with respect towards its friends, why should you be surprised that other places dont like you when you threaten them.
There is too much history for the US to change and expect everyone to love them. But that doesnt mean you should give up the ideal of trying to act with more respect in international matters. And before you think Im just singling out the USA, my country hasnt been a whole lot better recently. But that looks like changing after our recent election.

As for handouts - you arent the only place giving handouts. Although you are one of the countries that imposes the most conditions on its handouts!
Todays news - http://www.voanews.com/english/2007-11-29-voa63.cfm