[.OrgOwner]

If memory serves me right oil was @ about $40US a barrell when George W Bush took over the top job. Now it's close to $130US. It does make you wonder.

[slickwill]

No Cheney is the one with ties to big oil. Bush is much more disconnected from oil. I'm sure he has friends here and there that are tied to it but he's not in nearly as deep as Cheney.

[steingar]

Peak oil is here. Learn to grow food.

[RojerLockless]

Bush is a Texas Baseball owner =P

[roughneckin]

Seems a little suspect doesn't it??? He may not be directly associated with the oil industry, anymore, but has in the past. Maybe a few kickbacks are coming soon to him in Feb. '09???

[.OrgOwner]

Yeah who knows how the big game is actually played, we can only guess based on the limited information we are fed. You can imagine the guys at the top end of town have all bought and paid for their own tropical Islands somewhere.... Just in case they need to relocate one day.

[lanbrown]

Originally Posted by .OrgOwner

If memory serves me right oil was @ about $40US a barrell when George W Bush took over the top job. Now it's close to $130US. It does make you wonder.

Originally Posted by roughneckin

Seems a little suspect doesn't it??? He may not be directly associated with the oil industry, anymore, but has in the past. Maybe a few kickbacks are coming soon to him in Feb. '09???

Originally Posted by .OrgOwner

Yeah who knows how the big game is actually played, we can only guess based on the limited information we are fed. You can imagine the guys at the top end of town have all bought and paid for their own tropical Islands somewhere.... Just in case they need to relocate one day.

All is priced on the open market. It is not like we (just the US) are paying more, it is almost every single person in the world. The real people who are making money off of this, the oil producers; like OPEC.

[roughneckin]

So the war in Iraq has not bumped up the price a little maybe? Turmoil in the Middle East will always bump the prices up.

And the White House has already planned on Vetoing the bill to try and go after OPEC for bumping prices up.
U.S. House passes bill to sue OPEC over oil prices | Reuters

[.OrgOwner]

I agree - OPEC seem very much like a bunch of crooks running extortion. Only recently Bush requested an increase in daily production which more or less got laughed at.

[lanbrown]

Originally Posted by roughneckin

So the war in Iraq has not bumped up the price a little maybe? Turmoil in the Middle East will always bump the prices up.

And the White House has already planned on Vetoing the bill to try and go after OPEC for bumping prices up.
U.S. House passes bill to sue OPEC over oil prices | Reuters

And the US has no jurisdiction outside of the US. The best they could do is sue them, get a judgement and if any of the members of OPEC stepped one foot in the US, they could be arrested. That bill is nothing more than a dog and pony show put on by the democraps.

[slickwill]

Originally Posted by lanbrown

And the US has no jurisdiction outside of the US. The best they could do is sue them, get a judgement and if any of the members of OPEC stepped one foot in the US, they could be arrested. That bill is nothing more than a dog and pony show put on by the democraps.

Yep, Pelosi tried the same "methods" in California and it didn't do any good there either.

[bettingpython]

We shake our fists and tell opec we are serious about increasing oil production, yet we wont explore drill or build refineries here in the US.

What kinda message is that sending about our seriousness?

We consider your countries ecosystem to be less important than yours.

What happens if the same brand of politically driven eco terrorism and hostage holding of resources that plague our country suddenly become de facto in the arab world?

Why are we using ethanol? If we are going to subsidize renewable fuels bio-diesel makes more sense, instead of mandating ethanol production kill the production of gasoline engines. Get waste vegetable oil recycling mandated just like lead recycling, 98% of car batteries which is the largest lead consumer in the US come from recycled lead. And nothing smells better than french fry exhaust. Plus biodiesal can be made from virgin veg oil stocks as well.

Mandate re-refining of waste motor oil, no need to keep refining crude for engine oil just recycle what we have.

These are steps we should have been taking 10 years ago, our dependance on foreign oil is apalling.

We used to have a great agricultural base in this country that has fallen to pieces, the entitlement mentallity that broke out amongst baby boomers and spread to GenX and that is corrupting and growing amongst generation Y is one of the largest issues we have.

No one wants to work hard and many don't know how to work hard.

Personally if I were going to get into farming I would have an eye towards corn oil production and building a bio-diesel refinery.

[lanbrown]

We do drill here in the US. We do have refineries in the US; that is where virtually all of our fuel comes from. When one of the refineries is offline we buy elsewhere. Arizona will have a refinery that will create about 50% of their fuel needs. There is also an ethanol refinery east of the Mississippi that should be open in the next year or two. So you are way off base here.

Lastly, forget corn based fuel, it is waste. Try switchgrass, it can made into fuel easier and provide better fuel that E85 that we get from corn.

What we need is to get more solar power and to have incentive for companies to install covered parking for electric vehicles only. When at work, you plug it in and the sun charges it. More nuclear power is also the answer.

We also need to get hydrogen out there more. Get them in the hands of the people.

Some will still use LP or LNG for fuel, like city buses and such.

Then we need to plant plenty of switchgrass and get rid of the corn subsidy. We need to open relations with Cuba, assist them in the drilling in the ocean close to Cuba. We have too much to lose if there is a spill. We should also get a percentage of the oil at market rate. We should also buy sugarcane from them and turn that into a fuel or to use as a natural sweetener instead of corn.

[bettingpython]

Ahhhhh relations with cuba theres a novel idea. I just want cigars though.

We haven't built a new refinery in the US in over 20 years. Many refiners are running at over 100% capacity now.

Ethanol even from switchgrass is still less efficent than bio diesel, ethanol is a crap mandate and a knee jerk reaction to the problem.

Diesels are less polluting and last longer than gasoline engines as well as being more fuel efficient.

[evan]

Most of your (US) oil comes from Canada not the middle east. Crude oil from the tar sands in Alberta is a large portion of what is sent south to your refineries.

We are one of the largest oil exporters and I fill up at $1.30 to $1.40 a litre for premium which should be about $5- $5.30 per gallon, they say by summer regular will be at $1.40 -$1.50 so add about anothe .20 per litre and thats my price for fill up on the bike (18 litre tank). A big chunk of our price is tax that the government won't lower.

The whole industry is corrupt crooks who use any excuse to raise prices and both our governments are full of corrupt politicians who cash in on it.

[lanbrown]

We are building refineries as well as expanding the capacity at the existing ones. Most of the cost of fuel is oil prices and taxes.
Arizona refinery permit took seven years, Senate told

“Arizona Clean Fuels first began working on a permit for a large refinery near Mobile in 1998.
But in 2003, as it was ending its work on the permit application, the state determined Mobile was part of the area around Phoenix out of compliance with standards for ozone, the smog-forming pollutant.
The company agreed to move to Yuma, and the final permit was issued in April 2005 - seven years after the company first began its work.”

Ethanol plant:
Kearney Hub - New ethanol plant still needs water plan

Here is one that is planned:
GRANHOLM - Granholm Says New Ethanol Plant to Put Michigan First in Race to Turn "Wood to Wheels"

One issue with using corn:
Cargill puts off plans for new ethanol plant

Want a list of what is going on:
Distilleries and Fuel-Ethanol Plants Worldwide - Links to distilleries and fuel-ethanol plants in the USA

The real reason why you don’t see many new gasoline refineries is because of the EPA, the costs and an uncertain future.

Ask the Germans what they think about Bio-fuel. The price of Gummi Bears has gone up because of it.
Biofuels Threatening German Gummy Bear Habitat : TreeHugger

Originally Posted by evan

A big chunk of our price is tax that the government won't lower.

The whole industry is corrupt crooks who use any excuse to raise prices and both our governments are full of corrupt politicians who cash in on it.

Prices are high in almost every corner of the globe.

[bettingpython]

It doesn't matter that it's not being directly tanked in. Oil is a global futures speculation market which means the net effect of increased production by OPEC would decresed prices worldwide.

[bettingpython]

What about the resource drain on water to convert vegetable manner to ethanol it's ridiculously high. No to mention the horrendeous fuel efficiency that flex fuel e85 capable vehicles get burning either E85 or get this that mandated E10 crap. Whereas diesel milege is 25% better than non ethyl gasoline.

Real world numbers around town my truck gets 16.34 mpg on straight gas I pay an extra nickel a gallon to fill up with non ethanol blend.

On E10 I get 14.1 mpg for a nickel a gallon less gimme a break.

OK E85 13.9 mpg 50 cents a gallon less I can deal with that mileage for the price, problem is I have to drive 26 miles out of my way to the nearest station that has E85.

So lets do the math 20 gallons of fuel saves me 1.00 per tank by using E10

But that 1.00 extra means I get to go an additional 2.24*20=44.8 miles per tank which would take me 44.8/14.1= 3.1 gallons of E10. At a cost of 3.79 a gallon it costs me an additional 11.8 dollars to drive 44 extra miles on a tank of fuel.

Ethanol is a **** substitute that is energy intensive to make and inefficient.


In the meantime I am tired of paying 3.00 for a loaf of bread and 4.00 a gallon for milk because of the shortsighted jackass move to use ethanol.

Also Ethanol and it's blends produce more atrmospheric pollutants that are a cause of poor air quality than non blended gasoline alone, Diesel and then Biodiesel produce the fewest air pollunts responsible for dirty air and ozone alerts which this year my city will probably exceed too many times because of the increased ethanol usage, net effect is the EPA then requires distributors to sell an even more expensive cleaner burning gasoline which is more expensive than the Summer blends which raised our gas pric es already this weekend.

[bettingpython]

Petroleum refiners wanted to build refineries 20 years ago and drill for oil on the coastal shelfs and anwar 20 years ago but the EPA blocked all of it and now we are paying the price for it.

And thats just one blog sight lots of europe is enjoying bio diesel, the ethanol is whats pissing them off the same as me.

[bettingpython]

And BTW until we accept a less expensive form of electrical power generation i.e. nuclear power generation which the EPA and gen. pop. and tree huggers have all shunned Hydrogen production is out the window it is extremely cost prohibitive.

Ya know what I'm done this is the reason I stay out of the politics section. Sorry to get so pissy. We will have to agree to disagree because I do not feel like writing a masters dissertation on world economics petroleum markets and alternative renewable fuel sources.

[lanbrown]

See post 13.

Switchgrass is better than corn. It grows faster, takes less care and to convert it into fuel takes less overall.

I'm not going to say what I have already said above.

We can break the use of foreign oil' quicker than what people think. We just have to change.

For the person who mentioned recycled oil:
America's Choice Re-Refined Motor Oil 1-800-525-5739

[roughneckin]

The US imports almost 12.2 million barrels a day. The US is not self sufficient in this aspect whatsoever. They need imports badly from Saudi Arabia and the the other middle eastern countries. Canada exports to the US 3.3 million barrels a day.

The ethanol debate will rage on forever. Using food as a fuel will make it so countries that are harder off, like Mexico for example, that use corn as a main staple in their diets to survive because it is cheap will start to suffer tremendously. They all of a sudden will not be able to buy the main staple that keeps them going, like rice in Asia. This will result in more issues that are imaginable.

[lanbrown]

The main issue with ethanol is that people do not think far enough in advance. They see a surplus and think of a way to use it; like corn. Then people all decide to start making ethanol from it and the prices shoot up because of the demand. If they would work together they would be further ahead. If I were to build an ethanol plant that sues switchgrass, I would eb looking at buying land or getting farmers involved. Set the price and have a contract for it. They know what they will get and they will also get a share of the profits.

[steingar]

Nice to know everyone has seen ethanol for the sham that it is. Drilling everywhere in the US is at best a stop-gap solution, there just isn't that much oil there at our current rate of consumption. While alternative energy sources are a really good idea, remember that most of them use oil in some way, shape or form. As oil gets more expensive so do they. Time to invest is now.

[ROCK1T]

everyone needs to buy bikes... so then they quit trying to run us over... and everybody be getting a lot better gas mileage..

[ROCK1T]

Originally Posted by bettingpython

What about the resource drain on water to convert vegetable manner to ethanol it's ridiculously high. No to mention the horrendeous fuel efficiency that flex fuel e85 capable vehicles get burning either E85 or get this that mandated E10 crap. Whereas diesel milege is 25% better than non ethyl gasoline.

Real world numbers around town my truck gets 16.34 mpg on straight gas I pay an extra nickel a gallon to fill up with non ethanol blend.

On E10 I get 14.1 mpg for a nickel a gallon less gimme a break.

OK E85 13.9 mpg 50 cents a gallon less I can deal with that mileage for the price, problem is I have to drive 26 miles out of my way to the nearest station that has E85.

So lets do the math 20 gallons of fuel saves me 1.00 per tank by using E10

But that 1.00 extra means I get to go an additional 2.24*20=44.8 miles per tank which would take me 44.8/14.1= 3.1 gallons of E10. At a cost of 3.79 a gallon it costs me an additional 11.8 dollars to drive 44 extra miles on a tank of fuel.

Ethanol is a **** substitute that is energy intensive to make and inefficient.


In the meantime I am tired of paying 3.00 for a loaf of bread and 4.00 a gallon for milk because of the shortsighted jackass move to use ethanol.

Also Ethanol and it's blends produce more atrmospheric pollutants that are a cause of poor air quality than non blended gasoline alone, Diesel and then Biodiesel produce the fewest air pollunts responsible for dirty air and ozone alerts which this year my city will probably exceed too many times because of the increased ethanol usage, net effect is the EPA then requires distributors to sell an even more expensive cleaner burning gasoline which is more expensive than the Summer blends which raised our gas pric es already this weekend.

e10 still should be an option... ethanol provides an amazing performance aspect for cars.. if e10 was available in bowling green kentucky, you better believe i would adjust my timing and tune my car to run off of it... its 85% alcohol mixed with 15% gasoline which in turn gives it a rating around 100-103... also its a lot cleaner burning than gas in certain ways, but i am not saying this is the best way to protect the enviroment, because this world is only going to be here so long... but i wish i had e10