[dr256]

So as President Obama announces he will be closing Gitmo, what are your thoughts?

[denzee]

Good question dr. Absolutely stupid and may not even happen. What do you do with 250 some odd criminals? You can argue some are not and maybe true in a very small amount of cases.
Release them into the public? They'll come back to kill again with even more of a vengence now.
Allow them access to American lawyers? That would be a costly circus and in the end most would be released because of the lack of solid evidence. They would all walk like OJ.
I don't think there's a whole lot of choice. Keep them where they are. Would you want them in your neighbourhood? I also understand Obama is exploring other options now because the reality is setting in.

[FB1000inPA]

He will close it. In the greater picture, it is a bone he needs to throw to satisfy the extreme left.

[dr256]

Originally Posted by FB1000inPA

He will close it. In the greater picture, it is a bone he needs to throw to satisfy the extreme left.

I would have thought the bone is being thrown to governments overseas more than the left in the US. Several of which, including my own Prime Minister have sent official complaints, which is actually highly unusual these days. But seeing as there are currently three or four British citizens in their without charge hardly surprising.

Denzee raises valid points about what the hell you are going to do with the detainees. Send them home and they talk to the international press like their lives depended on it. Keep them there and the bad press continues anyway.

Personally I'd tell George W that we've gifted him a new ranch for his retirement and slam the door shut!

[Trimmed_Jennis]

right. that's why everyone in Prison's over her is innocent... we've got the wrong man...

There's a reason they're in there. maybe minute or maybe it's their associations or actions they should have paid closer attention too. but there is a reason.

I'm torn on closing it... i mean i don't want to be mean to anyone, but they're terrorists in there... maybe if we let them go, they won't hurt anyone anymore where's the "Dripping with sarcasm" smilie?

[dr256]

Jennis - even the English guy they released last year after four years without trial and no charges or even alleged offences before during or after his capture?

The dripping with Sarcasm smile is being held at Gitmo!!!

[Trimmed_Jennis]

yep. even him!!! honestly. i haven't read every article out on gitmo. but i fail to see how detaining terrorists is a bad thing... for any country. I'm not supporting the false imprissonment of anyone from any country. I'm just saying that there's a reason. Suspicion is usually bread out of truth.

[FB1000inPA]

So close it. No big deal. It's better for the CIA and military because they can extract informations better from suspects on foreign soils anyway.

Why are folks so fixated on Gitmo and ignore the fact that this is constantly going on anywhere on earth?

Come on folks. It has to be done to protect the US and friendly countries from attacks of any kind.

[denzee]

Come on FB...give them another chance. Especially if they give their word on it. No more violence. They can all go live in Berkeley California.

[FB1000inPA]

Yep, liked your post.

[lanbrown]

Originally Posted by denzee

Come on FB...give them another chance. Especially if they give their word on it. No more violence. They can all go live in Berkeley California.

How about they share room with Obama supporters. Up for it Nedro? Are you ready for change?

[dr256]

Originally Posted by Trimmed_Jennis

yep. even him!!! honestly. i haven't read every article out on gitmo. but i fail to see how detaining terrorists is a bad thing... for any country. I'm not supporting the false imprissonment of anyone from any country. I'm just saying that there's a reason.

Your not supporting false imprisonment but you advocate in the same sentence that even the innocent man is a terrorist by the mere fact that he's in there. If that's the case then why were there no charges, no trial? By releasing him without any further investigation the american military are admitting that there was in fact no reason for him to be there other than false imprisonment.

Originally Posted by Trimmed_Jennis

Suspicion is usually bread out of truth.

So if I suspect you are a terrorist that must be then born out of truth?
This is exactly the sort of thing they used to use to burn witches in the middle ages.

Originally Posted by FB1000inPA

So close it. No big deal. It's better for the CIA and military because they can extract informations better from suspects on foreign soils anyway.

Aka you can torture them. Which is what the US does with it's alliance with Egypt anyway.
It's interesting that you feel Gitmo is no big deal. For many countries Gitmo has been the symbol of american arrogance. By placing itself above international law your government has made a mockery of the very freedoms it claims to promote.

Originally Posted by lanbrown

How about they share room with Obama supporters. Up for it Nedro? Are you ready for change?

Really they inmates should be all coming to Republican houses, after all it's the right of america that believes Gitmo should stay open for business.

Now don't get me wrong here people, there is no denying that some of the facilities inmates are indeed extremely dangerous. There is also no denying that some of them are entirely innocent. So for those who fulfill the first category it's absolutely right that they are held in such as manner as to deny any chance of carrying out their acts violence etc.
But...
The way in which Gitmo has been run and in particular the holding without trial, in some cases for over seven years, has lead to the damnation of your fair country by almost every one of the worlds leaders. Including your biggest ally the UK.
It's entirely correct that Gitmo closes, but the inmates must either receive a trial and be sentenced or be released.

[FB1000inPA]

Originally Posted by dr256

Aka you can torture them. Which is what the US does with it's alliance with Egypt anyway. It's interesting that you feel Gitmo is no big deal. For many countries Gitmo has been the symbol of american arrogance. By placing itself above international law your government has made a mockery of the very freedoms it claims to promote.

Why? Because it was out in the open and everybody was able to look at it?

What about the British? Do you think they are not involved in torture? The only difference is that it wasn't reported where, when and who in the Sun or any other paper.

Come on already. Don't be naive.

[dr256]

Originally Posted by FB1000inPA

Why? Because it was out in the open and everybody was able to look at it?

No. Because it breaks International Law. Because it breaks the Geneva convention. Because in eight or so years only one person has been brought to trial. Because its outside the US constitution, allowing detainees to be tortured off american soil and also therefore by-passes any american law.

Originally Posted by FB1000inPA

What about the British? Do you think they are not involved in torture? The only difference is that it wasn't reported where, when and who in the Sun or any other paper.

Actually the UKs complicity in allowing US transporters planes to fly over UK soil taking Guantanamo detainees to egypt to be tortured was widely reported in the UK media. Its how we know the US was taking prisoners to be tortured in the first place.
Our troops have also, as you suggest, been accused of torturing Iraqi prisoners in Iraqi jails. The only difference where is our lads were smart enough not to take as many pictures.
The problem with all this is it has since been discovered that some of the intelligence gathered in egypt has since been used to further the case for stronger anti terror legislation. And we all know how reliable information gained through torture is.

Originally Posted by FB1000inPA

Come on already. Don't be naive.

I think its you who are naive. Our government are running around doing what the hell they want in the name of protection. This is the prime reason given for Guantanamo. To protect you. It undeniable that some of the people in there are extremely dangerous. Fine give them a trial and sentence them. But its also undeniable that some are entirely innocent.
Meanwhile part of this protecting you comes in the form of Anti-Terror laws. Fine you say I've nothing to hide I'm no terrorist. Well under the new laws passed by the senate the moment you march against Obama's new gun laws you could be deemed so.
Take the new Patriot act. This allows any state body to enter your house while you not there or while you are for that matter, without a warrant, and search any aspect of your private belongings.
It allows any state body to access your bank account, your credit cards your emails even to track you as you move around the net. Again without a warrant or even telling or charging you.
It allows any state body to tap your phone, bug your house, your car and your office, to access your medical records, your insurance anything...all without a warrant, telling you why they want the information or even telling you they accessed it.
Again I here you say but I'm not a terrorist.
Well any state body also means the local copper who doesn't like you because you ride a bike...Rosco Peeko Train Sherriff now has the power to find out everything about you. Without having to bring charges, make an arrest or even declare why he's accessing the info. Buddy you just better hope you didn't do his daughter!

Your government has just turned the whole of America into Guantanmo Bay. Think this is BS?
Well since 9/11 the FBI has arrested over 2000 people in relation to events on that tragic day. Thus far only 2 have been charged. No figures are available as to how many have been released or how many are still in custody.

If you think protecting OUR freedom is naive. Then I'll take it as a compliment.

[dr256]

I need a tumbleweed smilie!

[denzee]

Many points you make are getting me fired up dr.
The Geneva Convention shouldn't technically even apply to the detainees because they are not fighting in uniform for a Countries Government for a specific cause but we apply it anyways because that's the way we are. They are combatants period. Also all of them have had their Military hearing as far as I know and they have established their ties to terrorism. Over half of them have since been released so the system does work. There is also Red Cross people and others there to monitor. That's good enough for me. The treatment they receive there is better than they would get anywhere else. They at least still have their heads.

Do you also realize that these detainees are trained how to act after they are captured because they know all the buttons to push for sympathy. Things like torture and not allowing them praying with their Koran are grossly exagerated to cause outcry.

Then it depends on how you define torture. Is water boarding torture? Some say yes but I say use it if it works. Plus contrary to what you say, torture absolutely gets results if applied properly. We can't even imagine how many plots have been foiled because of information attained through these means. To make up information to please the interrorgators will only bring them more pain when found to be untrue. That is made known to the detainees in advance.

Ask yourself this one simple question. If someone had your wife or child held captive and you had the suspect, what measures would you apply to get the information from this suspect as to where they are? Now apply that to our Armed Forces out there with their lives depending on gathered intellegence.

Now the patriot act. Why am I willing to give up some of my liberties for security? You do it because it is a neccessary tool to fight terrorism. What the hell is the big deal? I don't care what the authorities need to do to keep me safe, bloody do it. Besides, all these programs are monitored and only used where needed. It's not a free-for-all.

Say all you want about W but it's not by chance there hasn't been another terrorist event here since 911.

Wow, that was a big one for me.

[FB1000inPA]

Oh please dr, spare me with your whining. Torture happens everywhere and anytime. All that remains is pointing the finger at others. However, usually the ones pointing the most have the most to hide. The next you post is that the British don't use torture to extract information.

[edclark99]

I cant understand why more prisons aren't like Guantanamo Bay? that is once a serious case has been put forward and it is passed by a panel of senior judges then the government should be able to employ certain approved tactics to help gain the truth.
i agree that the Geneva Convention shouldn't technically even apply to the detainees because they are not fighting in uniform...

unfortunately the British government has tended to air on the side of caution, although we have had terrorism here in the last few years thankfully nothing on the scale of 9/11, unfortunately i feel until we have a major disaster causing public out cry they will continue to claim the moral high ground avoiding publicly employing methods of torture.

[dicknose]

Originally Posted by Trimmed_Jennis

Suspicion is usually bread out of truth.

But holding people indefinitely without trial because of suspicion is not a good thing - certainly not for a country that pretends to be the leading light of the "free world".


Guantanamo - to me its the biggest example of the evil thats corrupting the USA.
Justifying things because we can cry "terrorist".
Torture should not be used, prisoners shouldnt be sent to other places to be tortured, people shouldnt be held indefinitely without trial, using a location to hold them in legal limbo (its not under US law there) - its all wrong.

You might be protecting yourselves from a bunch of half arse terrorists, but you have lost the respect of most of the world including many of your close allies.

I doubt that this has done anything to make the US safer. It certainly has done a huge amount to make America less popular.

I think Obama's move to close it is great and a sign that he actually gives a **** about the image of the US.
As a country you want to lead the world, then do it by example, not by force and fear.

[dicknose]

Originally Posted by edclark99

I cant understand why more prisons aren't like Guantanamo Bay?

Because most people in charge of civilised countries realise its immoral.
Capturing people in another country, forcable deporting them and then holding them without trial and torturing them - yes thats considered wrong by most people.

[dr256]

Originally Posted by FB1000inPA

Oh please dr, spare me with your whining. Torture happens everywhere and anytime. All that remains is pointing the finger at others. However, usually the ones pointing the most have the most to hide. The next you post is that the British don't use torture to extract information.

Read my post again FB. I clearly stated the UK is implicit in the accusation of torture. As are many other countries such as Egypt, Pakistan etc.

[dr256]

Originally Posted by edclark99

I cant understand why more prisons aren't like Guantanamo Bay? that is once a serious case has been put forward and it is passed by a panel of senior judges...

Until recently this has been the exact opposite of Gitmo. It's taken seven years and considerable international pressure to get any detainees in front of a panel of judges. Although Denzees point is correct things have improved considerably recently.

Originally Posted by edclark99

although we have had terrorism here in the last few years thankfully nothing on the scale of 9/11,

You are entirely correct Ed, the UK government has aired on the side of caution. This is due to us having this sort of experience since the beginning of the Northern Ireland conflict. Our government employed exactly these sorts of methods to extract "intelligence" from the IRA and Loyalist para-militaries. Perhaps 30 or so years later we can hope that that airing on the side of caution is a sign that they actually learnt something.

[dr256]

Originally Posted by denzee

Many points you make are getting me fired up dr.

All part of the service, you are most welcome.
Hope we get to meet for that beer one day.

Originally Posted by denzee

The Geneva Convention shouldn't technically even apply to the detainees because they are not fighting in uniform for a Countries Government for a specific cause but we apply it anyways because that's the way we are. They are combatants period.

Denzee you forget that some of the initial inhabitants were Iraqi soldiers and therefore covered by said convention. I agree about your point that it should be applied anyway.

Originally Posted by denzee

Also all of them have had their Military hearing as far as I know and they have established their ties to terrorism. Over half of them have since been released so the system does work. There is also Red Cross people and others there to monitor. That's good enough for me. The treatment they receive there is better than they would get anywhere else. They at least still have their heads.

This is not actually true. On June 12th of this year the American Supreme Court ruled that terrorism suspects held at Gitmo have a right to seek their release in federal court, delivering a historic rebuke to the Bush administration and Congress for policies that the majority (of the supreme court) said "compromised, in the name of national security, the Constitution's guarantee of liberty."
At that time, June 2008, there were around 270 detainees. Of which only 20 had been directly linked to terrorist activity and charges brought against them. At one point in 2006 Gitmo held 400 detainees of which NONE had been either charged given a trial. To date only one person has been convicted. Bin Laden's chauffeur.
You are correct in stating that many have been released. Around 300 over the last seven years if memory serves. Again. None were charged or received a trial at any point during there captivity.
With regard to the red cross as monitors - the Red Cross was denied access until Summer 2006.

Originally Posted by denzee

Then it depends on how you define torture. Is water boarding torture? Some say yes but I say use it if it works. Plus contrary to what you say, torture absolutely gets results if applied properly. We can't even imagine how many plots have been foiled because of information attained through these means. To make up information to please the interrorgators will only bring them more pain when found to be untrue. That is made known to the detainees in advance.

Come on Denzee, you know and I know that torture is wrong. We also both know that its an entirely unreliable way of gathering "intelligence" A classic example of which was the WMD claims extracted from prisoners in Egypt which was the principle justification by both our governments for the invasion of Iraq in the first place. Since proven to be entirely false. And the irony is that when six months prior to the Iraq conflict Saddam said he'd destroyed all his missiles. He was telling the truth. The UN weapons inspectors at the time said so. The US administration countered with the WMD intelligence and we all believed them.

Originally Posted by denzee

Ask yourself this one simple question.

We'd rip them apart. You know we would. We all would.
But I'm not a government. I'm not a state. I can be prosecuted for anything I do to my captive. How do you prosecute the United Kingdom or the United States and isn't this a question of how we as civilians expect our representatives to act on or behalf?

Originally Posted by denzee

Now the patriot act....Besides, all these programs are monitored and only used where needed. It's not a free-for-all.

jeez Denzee sorry about all this...but as I've said before our local councils in this country are already using exactly this sort of anti-terror law to prosecute civilians for things as menial as putting your bins out on the wrong day!!!. Our government is one step ahead of yours, I'm afraid, in the removal of civil rights stakes...

Originally Posted by denzee

Say all you want about W...

All I'd say about W on this issue is, even he has conceded that Gitmo has to close. But has decided that the legal headache of actually getting it shut down without just letting everyone go is a political minefield. So W has decided to, and I quote, "send it down the road" for Obama to pick up which is very generous, especially as he's already given Obama several Banks, two wars and over 800 million in debt.

Ride safe Denzee. Best.

[denzee]

[quote]

Originally Posted by dr256

All part of the service, you are most welcome.
Hope we get to meet for that beer one day.

Any dark English Ale will be fine please and thank you. I may surprise you some day dr.

Denzee you forget that some of the initial inhabitants were Iraqi soldiers and therefore covered by said convention. I agree about your point that it should be applied anyway.

Fair enough.

This is not actually true. On June 12th of this year the American Supreme Court ruled that terrorism suspects held at Gitmo have a right to seek their release in federal court, delivering a historic rebuke to the Bush administration and Congress for policies that the majority (of the supreme court) said "compromised, in the name of national security, the Constitution's guarantee of liberty."
At that time, June 2008, there were around 270 detainees. Of which only 20 had been directly linked to terrorist activity and charges brought against them. At one point in 2006 Gitmo held 400 detainees of which NONE had been either charged given a trial. To date only one person has been convicted. Bin Laden's chauffeur.
You are correct in stating that many have been released. Around 300 over the last seven years if memory serves. Again. None were charged or received a trial at any point during there captivity.
With regard to the red cross as monitors - the Red Cross was denied access until Summer 2006.

No detainees were there without good cause. Remember, they had to err on the side of caution. I agree the process is slow but getting evidence sometimes is difficult and just because there was a lack of enough evidence to prosecute, does not mean innocence as you know. Things have moved slowly in the right direction.

Come on Denzee, you know and I know that torture is wrong. We also both know that its an entirely unreliable way of gathering "intelligence" A classic example of which was the WMD claims extracted from prisoners in Egypt which was the principle justification by both our governments for the invasion of Iraq in the first place. Since proven to be entirely false. And the irony is that when six months prior to the Iraq conflict Saddam said he'd destroyed all his missiles. He was telling the truth. The UN weapons inspectors at the time said so. The US administration countered with the WMD intelligence and we all believed them.

I don't agree with torture beyond water boarding. I have no problem with a little roughing up though. Even with local police roughing up is good. Your "Classic example" of WMD intel was not gained through torture. It was obtained mostly from dissidents from within the Iraq regime. Read all you want about torture dr but APPLIED CORRECTLY it does work and has been used for centuries.

We'd rip them apart. You know we would. We all would.
But I'm not a government. I'm not a state. I can be prosecuted for anything I do to my captive. How do you prosecute the United Kingdom or the United States and isn't this a question of how we as civilians expect our representatives to act on or behalf?

Why would you do it for family members then and not other peoples husbands, sons and daughters who are involved in conflict?

jeez Denzee sorry about all this...but as I've said before our local councils in this country are already using exactly this sort of anti-terror law to prosecute civilians for things as menial as putting your bins out on the wrong day!!!. Our government is one step ahead of yours, I'm afraid, in the removal of civil rights stakes...

If that's going on then it's totally wrong and I'm surprised it is allowed. I can't speak for that dr.

All I'd say about W on this issue is, even he has conceded that Gitmo has to close. But has decided that the legal headache of actually getting it shut down without just letting everyone go is a political minefield. So W has decided to, and I quote, "send it down the road" for Obama to pick up which is very generous, especially as he's already given Obama several Banks, two wars and over 800 million in debt.

He's not responsible for the banks and one war only. Although the debt is probably higher than that. The Messiah will fix everything, don't worry.

Ride safe Denzee. Best.

You too dr, although it's freezing here at the moment so our Sunday rides are suspended until further notice. Cheers!

[dr256]

Denzee we will test you theory on torture when we meet for Real Ale - I tell you some of that stuff will go right though ya.

Run forest run !!!!!!

[denzee]

Originally Posted by dr256

Denzee we will test you theory on torture when we meet for Real Ale - I tell you some of that stuff will go right though ya.

Run forest run !!!!!!

Now that's torture but it's worth it dr. Lately because I've been getting so involved in these threads, I've not been able to read my local paper during my morning coffee. So because of that, I'm going to keep my responses brief from now on. All you guys are quite stimulating and it's fun. I wish we could all get together for a pint or two. Hey maybe we can even talk about bikes!

[FB1000inPA]

We all know how badly we treat the prisoners down there, but i'll be hornswaggled if I can find an excuse for this.

"If Obama wants his detention of Islamic terrorists to be dramatically different from Bush's Guantanamo, my suggestion is that he cut off -- so to speak -- the expensive prosthetic limb procedures now being granted the detained terrorists. Far from being sodomized and tortured by U.S. forces -- as Obama's base has wailed for the past seven years -- the innocent scholars and philanthropists being held at Guantanamo have been given expensive, high-tech medical procedures at taxpayer expense. If we're not careful, multitudes of Muslims will be going to fight Americans in Afghanistan just so they can go to Guantanamo and get proper treatment for attention deficit disorder and erectile dysfunction. After being captured fighting with Taliban forces against Americans in 2001, Abdullah Massoud was sent to Guantanamo, where the one-legged terrorist was fitted with a special prosthetic leg, at a cost of $50,000-$75,000 to the U.S. taxpayer. Under the Americans With Disabilities Act, Massoud would now be able to park his car bomb in a handicapped parking space! No, you didn't read that wrong, because the VA won't pay for your new glasses. I said $75,000. I would have gone with hanging at sunrise, but what do I know? Upon his release in March 2004, Massoud hippity-hopped back to Afghanistan and quickly resumed his war against the U.S. Aided by his new artificial leg, just months later, in October 2004, Massoud masterminded the kidnapping of two Chinese engineers in Pakistan working on the Gomal Zam Dam project. This proved, to me at least, that people with disabilities can do anything they put their minds to. Way to go, you plucky extremist! Massoud said he had nothing against the Chinese but wanted to embarrass Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf for cooperating with the Americans. You know, the Americans who had just footed -- you should pardon the expression -- a $75,000 bill for his prosthetic leg." --columnist Ann Coulter

Opinion at The Patriot Post

[dr256]

Originally Posted by FB1000inPA

We all know how badly we treat the prisoners down there, but i'll be hornswaggled if I can find an excuse for this.

You should send the bill to Mr Bush.
He opened Gitmo - at your expense.
He's kept all the prisoners there for the last seven years - at your expense.
He's flown them all over the world to extract "intelligence" - at your expense.
And now he's given them limbs - at your expense.

What's interesting is how many of the references are already blaming Obama for this when Massoud was released in 2004..around the time Mr Bush was just being re-elected for a second term.

[BigBassTurd]

Tell all those prisoners to STFU or they'll get more cockmeat sandwiches.

Warning harsh language!
YouTube - Harold and Kumar Escape from Guantanamo Bay, Cock Meat Sandwich Scene