[MACI4LIFE]

Originally Posted by setanta

Own the land? how does one get the right to say they have owned it, usually its dictated by a war. No matter what way you look at it the only rights that the Jews have to this land is down to a book of fiction.
Another anomoly is the fact that we declare internationally that roaming beast have a right to their paths, but a tribe of people no.
I have to admit unwillingly to have a certain amout of belief in your theory. I have never understood why the rest of the Arab world just dont come out and give their support to the Palestinians. Also as you say they can get the Palestinians to throw their stones for them (they can sit back and look good).




I know but dont you think its a shame that fairy stories caused and is still doing, causing so much grief.

Fairy tales have caused 99% of all wars to date.

[denzee]

Originally Posted by MACI4LIFE

Fairy tales have caused 99% of all wars to date.

That is factually incorrect MAC. Did you know Hitler was an atheist? I'll get you a ton more facts if needed. I'm certainly not one for organized religion but as much as you atheists would like to believe, it isn't the cause of most wars. They do however have their share of them. I think it basically means us Humans will always engage in battles. Might be a guy thing.

[Bigdaddy75]

Maggie Thatcher was never one to back down from a bit of biffo...

[Surffrog]

Originally Posted by setanta

True enough Surff, but again that’s in the past its about time they started looking at the now.

Those involved keep dragging up the past and can't get over it (Palestine), so we wouldn't be much help because they also don't want us to be, I'm afraid.

Originally Posted by setanta

As far as the US helping that's a laugh, in reality they have always sided with the Jews for God sake the keep the state afloat. Without the help of the US Israel would be fec*ed. So if in the simplest of terms, if you want to stop Israel all the States have to do is pull the financial support. You can’t fly jets, helicopters, fire expensive rockets or run tanks on empty air.

Unfortunately, while I can see your ideological thinking here, it would only make matters worse. The minute funding was pulled (believe me) the middle east (generally) would pour funding into the Palestinian war effort and it would become a free for all fight. Not a good idea.

Originally Posted by setanta

I have lived in the middle of a war torn country and your perceptions change drastically. You get acclimatised to things that outsiders would pee their pants about. Lumps of ineffective metal falling around you from time to time becomes the norm (a lot of you just wont believe that I know).

I assume you're talking about Ireland here (please correct me if I'm wrong). If so, you can hardly compare all that happened in modern history in Ireland to what has been happening in Palestine. No one flew gun-ships over Ireland and let the missiles rip or fired them from England. Sorry but the two situations aren't even close. And the fact that you don't seem to be able to let that past go just goes to show how little chance there is of finding a peaceful solution between two countries that have been kicking the sh1t out of each other far harder involving far more deaths...

Originally Posted by setanta

Now as far as both sides completely hating each other, that's a huge generalization and not a true one.

While there maybe some that don't hate the other side, there are so many who have lost loved-ones and can't forget the anger and hatred that the rest pale in significance.

Originally Posted by FB1000inPA

I would let the Germans sort it out. Germany has good relationships with both sides.
I understand there was the WWII thingy but Israel and Germany moved on and relationships are good. Besides that, more Jews have been immigrating to Germany than Israel in the last 5 to 10 years.

How ironic would that be. But actually the figures do seem to imply that you're right, FB. That would be one hell of a turnaround in history.

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy75

Maggie Thatcher was never one to back down from a bit of biffo...

Don't get the relevance here, Bigdaddy.

[MACI4LIFE]

Originally Posted by denzee

That is factually incorrect MAC. Did you know Hitler was an atheist? I'll get you a ton more facts if needed. I'm certainly not one for organized religion but as much as you atheists would like to believe, it isn't the cause of most wars. They do however have their share of them. I think it basically means us Humans will always engage in battles. Might be a guy thing.

meh.

hitler may have been athiest but he did use religion or the religious belief of others as the pretext of war.

[JEBSTER52]

Book of fiction! What an arse you wear upon your shoulders! I have studied all religions and a little history lesson for you...the Muslim religion was made up using the first five books of the Jewish Bible. If you take time to study their prophet you would see that unlike Christ who calls for loving thy neighbor, theirs calls for death to anyone who does not convert! Most religions seek peace and prayer not suppression and murder of innocent women and children!

[setanta]

Originally Posted by JEBSTER52

Book of fiction! What an arse you wear upon your shoulders! I have studied all religions and a little history lesson for you...the Muslim religion was made up using the first five books of the Jewish Bible. If you take time to study their prophet you would see that unlike Christ who calls for loving thy neighbor, theirs calls for death to anyone who does not convert! Most religions seek peace and prayer not suppression and murder of innocent women and children!

I can’t see anywhere that you proved that the book is not fiction. Ill give it some credence in the fact that it tells fables that do resembles what may have happened in world history. Most of the stories there are useful aid to help people understand and be controlled. Its funny that Islam when it spread to other countries allowed for other faiths to be worshipped side by side, kill murder mayhem eh?
Oh by the way its easy to throw insults from a keyboard, silly man

[dicknose]

Originally Posted by JEBSTER52

and murder of innocent women and children!

So how many innocent women and children have been killed in the Israeli offensive - reports put it at more than hundred.

[Surffrog]

Originally Posted by dicknose

So how many innocent women and children have been killed in the Israeli offensive - reports put it at more than hundred.

And over the years well into the thousands, I'm sure.

[Jetpilot07]

islamist extremism, they believe no one should exist except for them....all of the problems in the world is wrapped around that...Darfur, Somalia, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan againts India....after 9/11, i say we fry'em all....but thats just me talking.

[denzee]

If everybody was just nice to them and leave them alone and apologize for all the bad things we've done to them, I'm sure they would stop harming us.

[Surffrog]

Originally Posted by denzee

If everybody was just nice to them and leave them alone and apologize for all the bad things we've done to them, I'm sure they would stop harming us.

Though I feel and agree with your sentiment, Denzee. It may already be too late for that.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by Surffrog

Though I feel and agree with your sentiment, Denzee. It may already be too late for that.

Lack of tolerence and respect for others believes is what has got us here, unfortunately.

Jetpilot, I think your missing the common denominator in your list

[FB1000inPA]

Originally Posted by setanta

Lack of tolerence and respect for others believes is what has got us here, unfortunately.

Jetpilot, I think your missing the common denominator in your list

I would like to know what denominator you refer to.

As for respect etc...it's a matter of giving and receiving.
However, the non Islamic extremists are always giving - yet they never receive the same tolerance and respect.
How come?

[dmock96]

I don't want to say I'm enjoying watching the entire scenario play out, but if you stake a step back from the death and killing aspect, it's quite interesting. Two groups of people that have been fighting for what, thousands of years, are back at it. They've been fighting over the same thing for some time now and no matter who else gets involved, it doesn't appear that either will be happy. I honestly don't see a compromise possible. They both want the land. They're both shooting at each other. One just has a lot more rockets. It'll be intriguing to see how it all turns out in another couple thousand years.

[Surffrog]

Originally Posted by dmock96

I don't want to say I'm enjoying watching the entire scenario play out, but if you stake a step back from the death and killing aspect, it's quite interesting. Two groups of people that have been fighting for what, thousands of years, are back at it. They've been fighting over the same thing for some time now and no matter who else gets involved, it doesn't appear that either will be happy. I honestly don't see a compromise possible. They both want the land. They're both shooting at each other. One just has a lot more rockets. It'll be intriguing to see how it all turns out in another couple thousand years.

Except that I believe they only stop fighting long enough to breed a few more sprogs for future battles. If they keep that up the fighting will continue indefinitely.

[denzee]

Originally Posted by dmock96

I don't want to say I'm enjoying watching the entire scenario play out, but if you stake a step back from the death and killing aspect, it's quite interesting. Two groups of people that have been fighting for what, thousands of years, are back at it. They've been fighting over the same thing for some time now and no matter who else gets involved, it doesn't appear that either will be happy. I honestly don't see a compromise possible. They both want the land. They're both shooting at each other. One just has a lot more rockets. It'll be intriguing to see how it all turns out in another couple thousand years.

The difference is, one side wants the death and desruction of the other and the other side just wants to live in peace.

[JEBSTER52]

One side is bound by the Tora and could easily destroy all of Gaza, Lebenon and Syria...just like during the 6 day war! But they don't try to murder the innocent. For example, I am trained in the combat killing arts since I was 14 and went on to use those skills in Law Enforcement, but because of my belief in the Ten Commandments I would only use deadly force when protecting the life of another or my own. Self Defense! Israel does the same. Proof of God is evidenced in men that sacrifice all for strangers...proof of Evil is seen in men that can launch an IED via a mentally retarded child or confused young woman! Killing with evil intent must be discerned from the other! Proof of atheist in those that can't choose right from wrong...because they simply believe only in their selfish flesh! Children can die...so what! When bullets were flying and people I loved were bleeding to death I looked in to faces of people who loved to watch and never lift a finger. Proof of God I have seen when finally the bullets hit those that did nothing and suddenly they called out to God/Jesus...not L Ron Hubbard! Like the fact that there are no non believers in Hell or fox holes!! Jeb

[Surffrog]

Originally Posted by JEBSTER52

One side is bound by the Tora and could easily destroy all of Gaza, Lebenon and Syria...just like during the 6 day war! But they don't try to murder the innocent. For example, I am trained in the combat killing arts since I was 14 and went on to use those skills in Law Enforcement, but because of my belief in the Ten Commandments I would only use deadly force when protecting the life of another or my own. Self Defense! Israel does the same. Proof of God is evidenced in men that sacrifice all for strangers...proof of Evil is seen in men that can launch an IED via a mentally retarded child or confused young woman! Killing with evil intent must be discerned from the other! Proof of atheist in those that can't choose right from wrong...because they simple believe only in their selfish flesh! Children can die...so what! When bullets were flying and people I loved were bleeding to death I looked in to faces of people who loved to watch and never lift a finger. Proof of God I have seen when finally the bullets hit those that did nothing and suddenly they called out to God/Jesus...not L Ron Hubbard! Like the fact that there are no non believers in Hell! Jeb

Hmmm, I think your point may have been lost somewhere in all that. I know I'm confused.

As with anything we really want to change, we first have to show the willingness to do so. In this case that means from both sides. It's no good saying "I'll stop firing when you do!" That is so kindergarten as to be almost shameful for anyone over the age of 12 to come out with.

Secondly, in order to change the mistakes (or actions) of the past we have to do things differently to the past. Otherwise we'll end up with the same result. Both sides are going to have to realise that apart from genocide (which I don't believe the rest of the world will stand for for too long), they are going to have to find a way to live together in peace or find somewhere else to call "Holy" (which could open an entirely different can of worms).

But until both sides realise (at the same time) the futility of shooting each other, there isn't going to be anything anyone can say that will change their minds. Period.

[denzee]

Originally Posted by Surffrog

Hmmm, I think your point may have been lost somewhere in all that. I know I'm confused.

As with anything we really want to change, we first have to show the willingness to do so. In this case that means from both sides. It's no good saying "I'll stop firing when you do!" That is so kindergarten as to be almost shameful for anyone over the age of 12 to come out with.

Secondly, in order to change the mistakes (or actions) of the past we have to do things differently to the past. Otherwise we'll end up with the same result. Both sides are going to have to realise that apart from genocide (which I don't believe the rest of the world will stand for for too long), they are going to have to find a way to live together in peace or find somewhere else to call "Holy" (which could open an entirely different can of worms).

But until both sides realise (at the same time) the futility of shooting each other, there isn't going to be anything anyone can say that will change their minds. Period.

The method you speak of for peace Surf works fine with reasonable people. When you have one side that has been indoctrinated to hate Jews and want to kill them since they were toddlers it's not easy. That is all they know. It's bothersom to me when people such as yourself talk about both sides in this conflict like neither one wants peace. I don't know where this comes from.

As far as a willingness to do so, how many times has it been tried to obtain peace. Do you know that every times the peace initiative gets broken, it's because the Palestinians (Hamas) who break it? Does that tell you something?

Now I read that when Gaza was returned to the Palestinians in 2006 and thousands of Jews were forced to move out, basically leaving everything behind they worked hard for are now very upset because it's looking more and more like it was a mistake. The area is being used once again to shoot rockets into Israel. Giving it back to the Palestinians was part of the peace initiative and was to help restore it. Obviously didn't work well.

[denzee]

Originally Posted by denzee

If everybody was just nice to them and leave them alone and apologize for all the bad things we've done to them, I'm sure they would stop harming us.

This quote I posted earlier is an example of what people quite often say to me in regards to the middle east conflict. I would never say it and it drives be bonkers. One of the most nonsensicle statements ever IMHO.

[dicknose]

Originally Posted by denzee

As far as a willingness to do so, how many times has it been tried to obtain peace. Do you know that every times the peace initiative gets broken, it's because the Palestinians (Hamas) who break it? Does that tell you something?

Which side ignores UN resolutions?
Which side has all the power (to control movement of people and supplies, electricity and other basic services)?

Israel might not start the violence, doesnt mean they arent the ones to break with conditions set out in peace treaties.

[dicknose]

Originally Posted by denzee

The difference is, one side wants the death and desruction of the other and the other side just wants to live in peace.

The trick is to work out which is which!!

Which side has killed the most people in the last 10 years?
Which side wants basic rights to live without someone controlling their movement, services and surrounding them by walls?

[denzee]

Originally Posted by dicknose

The trick is to work out which is which!!

Which side has killed the most people in the last 10 years?
Which side wants basic rights to live without someone controlling their movement, services and surrounding them by walls?

I give up...sorry. If that's the way you view it dicknose, that's your choice. I'm done wasting my breath.

When you say "The trick is to work out which is which" I'm done!

[dicknose]

Originally Posted by denzee

I give up...sorry. If that's the way you view it dicknose, that's your choice. I'm done wasting my breath.

When you say "The trick is to work out which is which" I'm done!

You say its Hamas that breaks the peace treaty, but they will tell you its only because Israel has broken their agreements.

But hey - you are obviously have a closed mind and dont see that people are being persecuted and suffering. You dont have to agree with me, but the Red Cross and UN do, so maybe its me who is wasting my breath.

Hamas are terrorist. Ill give you that.
But Israel are far from saints. And I think its easy to argue that they are worse than Hamas - for one they certainly kill a lot more innocent people which has got to be a pretty good measure in anyones books. They are also the main reason that the place is described as a humanitarian crisis - Israel is the ones restricting supplies (thats when they are not bombing the UN supplies and convoys). They are building walls that the UN has told them to take down. They have all the power, they are the ones in control of the situation.

[Surffrog]

Originally Posted by denzee

The method you speak of for peace Surf works fine with reasonable people.

That's the point I was trying to convey, Denzee. We are NOT dealing with reasonable or rational people on either side by the stretch of anyones imagination.

Originally Posted by denzee

When you have one side that has been indoctrinated to hate Jews and want to kill them since they were toddlers it's not easy. That is all they know. It's bothersom to me when people such as yourself talk about both sides in this conflict like neither one wants peace. I don't know where this comes from.

Denzee, I think you are confusing the issue here. I understand why the Israelis felt oppressed in the beginning (because they most certainly were), but that was one hell of a long time ago and they have the very real support from some seriously powerful countries. They are no longer alone. They have very real power now, far more than Hamas does so they need to be seen to act in a far more mature manner. Letting rip on an entire town with gunships because there are a few people firing on your country with a couple of RPGs is hardly the action of enlightened people, is it?

Originally Posted by denzee

As far as a willingness to do so, how many times has it been tried to obtain peace.

Again, Denzee. This is the point I was trying to convey.

Originally Posted by denzee

Do you know that every times the peace initiative gets broken, it's because the Palestinians (Hamas) who break it? Does that tell you something?

I refer the honourable gentleman to the answer I gave at the beginning of this post. We are not dealing with rational people. However, there is no smoke without fire. Ask yourself why Hamas opens fire.

Originally Posted by denzee

Now I read that when Gaza was returned to the Palestinians in 2006 and thousands of Jews were forced to move out, basically leaving everything behind they worked hard for are now very upset because it's looking more and more like it was a mistake. The area is being used once again to shoot rockets into Israel. Giving it back to the Palestinians was part of the peace initiative and was to help restore it. Obviously didn't work well.

Well, all that you say here is true... as far as it goes. Now I'm no expert in these things but you do seem to have forgotten Hamas' claim that the Jewish settlements had been encroaching further and further into the Palestinians territory (i.e Gaza). And despite continued complaints by Hamas, the Israelis only answer was to provide the Jewish settlements with further military assistance in order to continue the practice. No sarcasm intended; perhaps you are more knowledgeable in this matter and can enlighten me as to the truth behind these potentially factitious and spurious claims.

[denzee]

I can only suggest you guys do more reading on this topic and read my previous posts if you have time. It seems you just don't believe them or forget. No sense repeating.

Also, because I have come to my own conclusion regarding this conflict, it doesn't mean I'm closed minded. I have done much reading and while I'm far from being any expert, I feel I have read enough to have a good overall view of the situation starting long before this conflict and I try to be objective. I have said in an earlier post that Israel has blood on their hands as well but they really are people who want to live like you and I. I think it's this point where we really differ in views.

It is a tragedy with much unneccessary suffering and I understand that and feel badly for innocent Palestinians who have been brought into this conflict through no fault of their own. I have seen many pictures.

Look guys, it isn't my goal to debate anybody beyond a certain point. Besides, you have also come to your own conclusion about this conflict and even as wrong as it may be, I respect that. Just kidding, settle down. I love this site and consider you guys my buddies. Plus, in case you haven't noticed, I am now a supporting member and no my avatar is not me, it's Jake Zemke.

Cheers

[Surffrog]

Originally Posted by denzee

I can only suggest you guys do more reading on this topic and read my previous posts if you have time. It seems you just don't believe them or forget. No sense repeating.

Also, because I have come to my own conclusion regarding this conflict, it doesn't mean I'm closed minded. I have done much reading and while I'm far from being any expert, I feel I have read enough to have a good overall view of the situation starting long before this conflict and I try to be objective. I have said in an earlier post that Israel has blood on their hands as well but they really are people who want to live like you and I. I think it's this point where we really differ in views.

It is a tragedy with much unneccessary suffering and I understand that and feel badly for innocent Palestinians who have been brought into this conflict through no fault of their own. I have seen many pictures.

Look guys, it isn't my goal to debate anybody beyond a certain point. Besides, you have also come to your own conclusion about this conflict and even as wrong as it may be, I respect that. Just kidding, settle down. I love this site and consider you guys my buddies. Plus, in case you haven't noticed, I am now a supporting member and no my avatar is not me, it's Jake Zemke.

Cheers

Denzee, firstly, congrats on the Supporting membership. Always good to have another fellow biker on board. Secondly, I've enjoyed debates with you before and am certain I will again. With regard to this debate, I think the only conclusion I have drawn over this whole sad affair is that I feel for the innocent parties - those who have never nor ever would try to shoot at "the enemy". NEVER the politicians or the radicals who believe aggression is the solution

[denzee]

Thanks Surf, I'm sure we will. Haven't seen Plade and Cherd around lately. What's up with that? Maybe no religious topics lately. lol

[Surffrog]

Originally Posted by denzee

Thanks Surf, I'm sure we will. Haven't seen Plade and Cherd around lately. What's up with that? Maybe no religious topics lately. lol

You have a point there. Although, If you think about it, it's precisely because such horrors like the one we are debating now that they don't "believe". I've got to agree with that kind of thinking, I'm afraid.