[denzee]

Originally Posted by Surffrog

You have a point there. Although, If you think about it, it's precisely because such horrors like the one we are debating now that they don't "believe". I've got to agree with that kind of thinking, I'm afraid.

Right on Surf and it's even crazier to think they both believe in the Same God.

[JEBSTER52]

Soon the time will come when the truth will be laid bare for all to see. But once again I ask...if you lay the doctrine of Nazi Germany down along side the radical Muslim you will see three common threads! One, they did not believe in individual rights of the most helpless in their society...in fact they exterminated them! Two, they believed their system was superior to all others. Their mission statement about the Jew were identical...destroy them. You claim you have done your reading...I think you are very poor students of history if you've sided with the facist and not the freedom loving people. You have to have a honorable belief system that protects the meek as well as the strong. And if you have never risk your life for another...you want understand what I am saying!

When the forces of evil rise up again as they always do, whom will you fight with? This little battle is just a skirmish. If history has taught us anything it is that war, like history repeats itself and usually in more drastic ways. Americans will fight with the Hebrews because it is the right thing and it is our destiny! Talkers talk and warriors fight so talkers can keep talking! Jeb

[Surffrog]

Originally Posted by JEBSTER52

Soon the time will come when the truth will be laid bare for all to see. But once again I ask...if you lay the doctrine of Nazi Germany down along side the radical Muslim you will see three common threads! One, they did not believe in individual rights of the most helpless in their society...in fact they exterminated them! Two, they believed their system was superior to all others. Their mission statement about the Jew were identical...destroy them. You claim you have done your reading...I think you are very poor students of history if you've sided with the facist and not the freedom loving people. You have to have a honorable belief system that protects the meek as well as the strong. And if you have never risk your life for another...you want understand what I am saying!

When the forces of evil rise up again as they always do, whom will you fight with? This little battle is just a skirmish. If history has taught us anything it is that war, like history repeats itself and usually in more drastic ways. Americans will fight with the Hebrews because it is the right thing and it is our destiny! Talkers talk and warriors fight so talkers can keep talking! Jeb

Jeb, if you re-read my posts you'll begin to understand that it is the meek (the truly meek) that I defend; those that have no way to defend themselves; those (irrespective of their nationality or religion) truly just wish to live a life with their families without fear of violence.

I do not side with anyone based on their religious background or on what you think you understand just because the media told you what was going on. In this particular issue, as I have said before, there are the guilty on both sides, which is why I personally don't support either. Whereas you have decided to blindly side with the Jewish.

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by setanta

Some good interesting points made, there just seems to be one missing. It’s effortlessly forgotten that Israel set up this state after the Second World War based on a book which leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to specifics. Now the Palestinians have been living there for thousands of years, it’s no wonder they are pissed off at loosing their Homeland. I mean how the hell would you feel if you had a homestead in your family for generations after generation to wake up some morning with a Yank (English, French, Aussie, fill in whatever ) Jew living in part of it, stating that its his God given right to be here. In case you are slightly peeved at this situation and you want to have words, you can, as long as you can get past the rifles, the tanks and the Apache helicopters. Not only has one moved in but loads have followed and they have cut off the access you have to your last piece of land rendering you into total poverty.
Palestinians have been forced to live in abject poverty and homelessness no wonder they are angry, they are desperate. I mean die by being bombed or by hunger and disease, some choice??
Before someone jumps in here I know that Arafat and his goons stole millions from the Palestinian people that was the main reason his party got the elbow at the elections.
Israel’s actions here are diabolical and surely they must know by now that this sort of action just doesn’t work, for every Hamas soldier they kill there will be ten young people willing to fill their boots. This action is only going to increase the hatred among the general people and to be honest will set things back a lot.
Food, medication, jobs that’s what Israel should be pumping into Palestine, I bet it would cost them less that this campaign will, mind you I suppose America will be footing the bill anyway.
I know if someone came into my country set up shop and told me to get to f*** Id be very pi**ed off (wonder if being Irish gives me a little insight)

BRAVO that man!!

[dicknose]

The UN commissioner on human rights suggests Israel should investigated for possible war crimes.

Im with Suffrog - its those with no way to defend themselves that need help. The evil I see is a military might killing women and children, and its looking more and more like its deliberate. Leaving racist graffiti behind doesnt help.

[denzee]

You guys really can't see the forest for the trees. Here' something to chew on.

I’ve had numerous discussions with people, mostly fellow Muslims, in recent days about the Israeli attacks on Gaza and the civilian victims of these bombings. As these people point out to me, purposefully killing innocent people - especially children - is a major crime against humanity and it is forbidden in the Qur’an: killing children is one of the worst crimes imaginable. As the Qur’an says, he who kills one innocent person, ‘it is as if he had murdered all mankind’ (Sura al-Ma’ida: 32 - 5:32).

Since children are the most innocent human beings in the world, killing them is a major sin and crime: both in Islam and according to secular law.
However, one should not only look at whether children are killed or not, one should also consider the intention of the killer: did they mean to kill the child or did they do everything in their power (except for not defending themselves and waiting to be killed themselves) to prevent the deaths?
In the case of Israel and Hamas, the difference between both sides should be clear to everyone with half a brain. Israel tries not to kill innocent people, but sadly some die nonetheless (collateral damage). Hamas, on the other hand, purposefully kills innocent Israelis and the terrorist group purposefully uses children and other innocent individuals as a human shield.
“We welcome death” is Hamas’ motto. Hamas won the elections in Gaza several years ago, beating Fatah with ease. The group has indoctrinated Gazans ever since, making them even more hateful, extremist and pro-terrorism than they already were. These individuals who call themselves Muslims but who are, in fact, hateful and intolerant sadists are responsible for the deaths of both innocent Israelis and innocent Palestinians and they are proud of it.
There certainly is evil present in this conflict. But the evil is not coming from the Israelis, it comes from Hamas. In strictly Islamic terms, Hamas represents the worst thing imaginable for all Muslims: Islamophobes can only do so much to destroy Islam, but those who use the name of Islam and God to kill innocent beings are doing far more damage to this great religion. They will, of course, be held accountable in the afterlife. In this life, however, they are doing tremendous damage to themselves, their own people and the rest of us. Muslims everywhere are served best by declaring Hamas the enemy of humanity and Islam instead of pretending that Israelis enjoy killing innocent Muslim children for a living.
Of course the above does not mean that Israel should not be criticized: it should. If it uses disproportionate force we - Muslims and non-Muslims alike - should say so. We should, however, not forget that Hamas, not Israel, is the true face of evil in this battle and every Muslim everywhere should make clear to this terrorist organization that they should stop using the good name of Islam in order to kill its own and other innocent people. The photos of dead Palestinian children, terrible as they are, should remind us of the evil embodied by Hamas - Israel tries to prevent these deaths while Hamas purposefully sacrifices these children for PR reasons.

[denzee]

Or maybe it's better in their own words and check out the other videos while there. Let me know if you need more.

YouTube - Hamas admits it uses human shields

[denzee]

Ok since you asked, one more...

Wall Street Journal

JANUARY 2, 2009, 1:35 P.M. ET
Israel's Policy Is Perfectly 'Proportionate'
Hamas are the real war criminals in this conflict.
By ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ
Israel's actions in Gaza are justified under international law, and Israel should be commended for its self-defense against terrorism. Article 51 of the United Nations Charter reserves to every nation the right to engage in self-defense against armed attacks. The only limitation international law places on a democracy is that its actions must satisfy the principle of proportionality.

Since Israel ended its occupation of Gaza, Hamas has fired thousands of rockets designed to kill civilians into southern Israel. The residents of Sderot -- which have borne the brunt of the attacks -- have approximately 15 seconds from launch time to run into a shelter. Although deliberately targeting civilians is a war crime, terrorists firing at Sderot are so proud of their actions that they sign their weapons.

When Barack Obama visited Sderot this summer and saw the remnants of these rockets, he reacted by saying that if his two daughters were exposed to rocket attacks in their home, he would do everything in his power to stop such attacks. He understands how the terrorists exploit the morality of democracies.

In a recent incident related to me by the former head of the Israeli air force, Israeli intelligence learned that a family's house in Gaza was being used to manufacture rockets. The Israeli military gave the residents 30 minutes to leave. Instead, the owner called Hamas, which sent mothers carrying babies to the house.

Hamas knew that Israel would never fire at a home with civilians in it. They also knew that if Israeli authorities did not learn there were civilians in the house and fired on it, Hamas would win a public relations victory by displaying the dead. Israel held its fire. The Hamas rockets that were protected by the human shields were then used against Israeli civilians.

These despicable tactics -- targeting Israeli civilians while hiding behind Palestinian civilians -- can only work against moral democracies that care deeply about minimizing civilian casualties. They never work against amoral nations such as Russia, whose military has few inhibitions against killing civilians among whom enemy combatants are hiding.

The claim that Israel has violated the principle of proportionality -- by killing more Hamas terrorists than the number of Israeli civilians killed by Hamas rockets -- is absurd. First, there is no legal equivalence between the deliberate killing of innocent civilians and the deliberate killings of Hamas combatants. Under the laws of war, any number of combatants can be killed to prevent the killing of even one innocent civilian.

Second, proportionality is not measured by the number of civilians actually killed, but rather by the risk posed. This is illustrated by what happened on Tuesday, when a Hamas rocket hit a kindergarten in Beer Sheva, though no students were there at the time. Under international law, Israel is not required to allow Hamas to play Russian roulette with its children's lives.

While Israel installs warning systems and builds shelters, Hamas refuses to do so, precisely because it wants to maximize the number of Palestinian civilians inadvertently killed by Israel's military actions. Hamas knows from experience that even a small number of innocent Palestinian civilians killed inadvertently will result in bitter condemnation of Israel by many in the international community.

Israel understands this as well. It goes to enormous lengths to reduce the number of civilian casualties -- even to the point of foregoing legitimate targets that are too close to civilians.

Until the world recognizes that Hamas is committing three war crimes -- targeting Israeli civilians, using Palestinian civilians as human shields, and seeking the destruction of a member state of the United Nations -- and that Israel is acting in self-defense and out of military necessity, the conflict will continue.

Mr. Dershowitz is a law professor at Harvard. His latest book is "The Case Against Israel's Enemies" (Wiley, 2008).

[JEBSTER52]

Denzee, I agree with you last point. Since 911 the cries against the whabist radicals from decent Muslim has be unbelieveably silent! It is they that must cry out to the Talaban/Hamas and the Iranian terrorist to stop strapping bombs on children and retarded girls. But the truth is they want as many collateral deaths as they can put in front of a camera.

I still did not get an answer to my question. Whom will you fight with when WWIII breaks out between Islamofacist and America? Many forget that CCCP actually fought with the ALLIES in WWII and the Italian fought with the Nazi. It will come to that time and I would like to know where you think you can hide without choosing a side.
Surfrog, I have chosen a side because I have studied history enough to know the Zionist haters really hate God's chosen people and the have almost been iradicated in ovens and concentration camps. No people have been persecuted more than the Hebrew Nation, ever! 12,000,000 dead at the hands of Nazi Germany, another 6,000,000 by the CCCP. That is why they must stop giving up ground! They also believe in individual rights, not facism! Jeb

[Surffrog]

Originally Posted by JEBSTER52

Surfrog, I have chosen a side because I have studied history enough to know the Zionist haters really hate God's chosen people and the have almost been iradicated in ovens and concentration camps. No people have been persecuted more than the Hebrew Nation, ever! 12,000,000 dead at the hands of Nazi Germany, another 6,000,000 by the CCCP. That is why they must stop giving up ground! They also believe in individual rights, not facism! Jeb

Jeb, if I were to fight it would be as a "third force" attempting (although probably failing miserably) to protect those from either side that are not trying to fight anybody.

[denzee]

Originally Posted by Surffrog

Jeb, if I were to fight it would be as a "third force" attempting (although probably failing miserably) to protect those from either side that are not trying to fight anybody.

I think you are Obama the Messiah, Surf. Sounds admirable but is idealistic. Did you have a chance to view my three posts? You and others will probably say it's bias or propaganda journalism is my guess.

[denzee]

Originally Posted by JEBSTER52

Denzee, I agree with you last point. Since 911 the cries against the whabist radicals from decent Muslim has be unbelieveably silent! It is they that must cry out to the Talaban/Hamas and the Iranian terrorist to stop strapping bombs on children and retarded girls. But the truth is they want as many collateral deaths as they can put in front of a camera.

I still did not get an answer to my question. Whom will you fight with when WWIII breaks out between Islamofacist and America? Many forget that CCCP actually fought with the ALLIES in WWII and the Italian fought with the Nazi. It will come to that time and I would like to know where you think you can hide without choosing a side.
Surfrog, I have chosen a side because I have studied history enough to know the Zionist haters really hate God's chosen people and the have almost been iradicated in ovens and concentration camps. No people have been persecuted more than the Hebrew Nation, ever! 12,000,000 dead at the hands of Nazi Germany, another 6,000,000 by the CCCP. That is why they must stop giving up ground! They also believe in individual rights, not facism! Jeb

Hey Jeb...I will side with my country and America if it were to happen. Isn't that a no brainer? Russia was only an ally with us in the sense they were fighting the same enemy. It was their own battle and they lost more people than all the allied forces combined.

[denzee]

Awefully quiet out there....

[dicknose]

Originally Posted by denzee

However, one should not only look at whether children are killed or not, one should also consider the intention of the killer: did they mean to kill the child or did they do everything in their power (except for not defending themselves and waiting to be killed themselves) to prevent the deaths?
In the case of Israel and Hamas, the difference between both sides should be clear to everyone with half a brain. Israel tries not to kill innocent people, but sadly some die nonetheless (collateral damage).

Using mortars, missiles and artillery against civilian areas - might not be targeting children, but they know that these weapons can miss and even if they hit the target you know there is a chance women and children will be there.

There is also evidence of soldiers shooting children. In particular there was an incident that the UN suggesting may be a war crime.

Hamas, on the other hand, purposefully kills innocent Israelis and the terrorist group purposefully uses children and other innocent individuals as a human shield.

How is firing rockets any more purposeful than firing other weapons.

As for human shields - is it worse to use a human shield or kill a human shield??

There certainly is evil present in this conflict. But the evil is not coming from the Israelis, it comes from Hamas.

Id argue that its coming from both sides.

Of course the above does not mean that Israel should not be criticized: it should. If it uses disproportionate force we - Muslims and non-Muslims alike - should say so.

Well Im saying so.
Im also saying the force is so disproportionate and poorly directed that it is an evil act.
You say its not their intention to kill children - but they have killed so many and done so in enough attacks that they know its a likely outcome - and they dont care.
So maybe they dont deliberately target children, but their reckless indifference is not much better. Its EVIL - they kill kids and dont care. They continue on and kill more.
There is also evidence of them deliberately killing them and then putting up racist graffiti to celebrate the occasion.

We should, however, not forget that Hamas, not Israel, is the true face of evil in this battle and every Muslim everywhere should make clear to this terrorist organization that they should stop using the good name of Islam in order to kill its own and other innocent people. The photos of dead Palestinian children, terrible as they are, should remind us of the evil embodied by Hamas - Israel tries to prevent these deaths while Hamas purposefully sacrifices these children for PR reasons.

Israel doesnt try to prevent these deaths!
Thats a total joke.
Its not like Hamas killed all these kids and then said "we didnt do it - they did".
Israel killed them and continued to do so thru the conflict. It wasnt like this was a single unfortunate incident. It was an known by-product, one that someone high up decide was acceptable. Yes someone made the decision that several hundred dead children was unfortunate but acceptable. How is that not evil?

Hamas may have provoked Israel - but they still should be held accountable for their actions.
I cant see how people can think Israel is innocent in all this - all Ive seen is poor excuses and blaming others. People/organisations should be judged by their actions, even when others provoke them. Israels actions have been terrible, killed hundreds of innocent people and children. They knew that would be a likely outcome, didnt care and did it anyway.

[dicknose]

Originally Posted by denzee

Second, proportionality is not measured by the number of civilians actually killed, but rather by the risk posed.

Under international law, Israel is not required to allow Hamas to play Russian roulette with its children's lives.

By this same logic - Hamas would be legally allowed to attack Israel.
Israel is posing a great risk to Palestian civillians (and by simple statistics a far far greater risk than Israeli children)

Thats the big problem with this sort of logic.
It works both ways - the same international law should allow action to stop Israel.

[dicknose]

Originally Posted by JEBSTER52

Surfrog, I have chosen a side because I have studied history enough to know the Zionist haters really hate God's chosen people and the have almost been iradicated in ovens and concentration camps.

I dont believe in God.
I have nothing against Jews - certainly no more than I have against others who believe in gods!!

I also dont think 50 or 100 year old actions against a group of people should be used as an excuse to justify killing others.

I am against people who kill children and then say "not our fault - they made me do it"

Why am I not surprised that people who believe in a religion that forbids murder find it acceptable to kill children and dismiss it so easily?!?

[denzee]

Dicknose, either you
1) didn't read it
2) read it and didn't comprehend it
3) you're anti semitic
4) you're not a Dick Nose, you're a Dick Head!

Which is it?

[Surffrog]

Originally Posted by denzee

I think you are Obama the Messiah, Surf. Sounds admirable but is idealistic. Did you have a chance to view my three posts? You and others will probably say it's bias or propaganda journalism is my guess.

Idealistic, yes. But I do not consider myself a messiah of any kind. I just answered straight from the heart. Somebody has to fight for the underdog i.e those who don't want to get involved in fighting. They just want to take care of their families but find themselves suck in the middle of a ridiculous situation where people on both sides of this issue are using 12 year old childish mentality to continue acting out their rage.

Originally Posted by dicknose

Using mortars, missiles and artillery against civilian areas - might not be targeting children, but they know that these weapons can miss and even if they hit the target you know there is a chance women and children will be there.

There is also evidence of soldiers shooting children. In particular there was an incident that the UN suggesting may be a war crime.


How is firing rockets any more purposeful than firing other weapons.

As for human shields - is it worse to use a human shield or kill a human shield??


Id argue that its coming from both sides.


I cant see how people can think Israel is innocent in all this - all Ive seen is poor excuses and blaming others. People/organisations should be judged by their actions, even when others provoke them. Israels actions have been terrible, killed hundreds of innocent people and children. They knew that would be a likely outcome, didnt care and did it anyway.

Originally Posted by dicknose

I dont believe in God.
I have nothing against Jews - certainly no more than I have against others who believe in gods!!

I also dont think 50 or 100 year old actions against a group of people should be used as an excuse to justify killing others.

I am against people who kill children and then say "not our fault - they made me do it"

Why am I not surprised that people who believe in a religion that forbids murder find it acceptable to kill children and dismiss it so easily?!?

Originally Posted by denzee

Dicknose, either you
1) didn't read it
2) read it and didn't comprehend it
3) you're anti semitic
4) you're not a Dick Nose, you're a Dick Head!

Which is it?

Denzee, that comment is below you.

[denzee]

Surf....those are truly the choices I see and you obviously are in pretty much the same camp. I didn't call him anything, the choice is his. There you are ing him on all these inaccurate things he said. That's your way of saying the same thing so that's your opinions and that's fine.

It really as if you're not reading anything or looking into it deeper. Being on the public bandwagon is below you guys because I know you are brighter than that. Hey you all bought Hondas.

Anti Semitism is also rooted quite deep in many people. It may not be the case here but it sure appearing that way.

[Surffrog]

Originally Posted by denzee

Surf....those are truly the choices I see and you obviously are in pretty much the same camp. I didn't call him anything, the choice is his. There you are ing him on all these inaccurate things he said. That's your way of saying the same thing so that's your opinions and that's fine.

It really as if you're not reading anything or looking into it deeper. Being on the public bandwagon is below you guys because I know you are brighter than that. Hey you all bought Hondas.

Anti Semitism is also rooted quite deep in many people. It may not be the case here but it sure appearing that way.

The point I was making was that you can make you point succinctly without having to resort to verbal insults, that is what I meant when I said the comment was beneath you.. As you say, these are the choices you see. I see things differently, although I believe that you may not have understood my position clearly so I will state for the record my stance on this issue:

I do not have any issues whatsoever with anyone from either the Islamic or Jewish faith based on their religion or nationality. I believe the persecution that the Jewish have been put through over the years has shown humanity at its worst. Nevertheless, and this is vitally important to the CURRENT situation we find in that part of the world today - the Israelis are no longer the persecuted minority group. They are supported with HUGE funding both economically and militarily. They are no longer running for their lives being hounded from one place to another. That they behave the way they do is understandable, but not morally defencible.

I also find Hamas' arguments understandable but, again, not morally defencible. From my first post on this thread I have stated that I think both sides are WRONG. And please remember that I stated that I used to support the Israelis. This constant killing each other will NEVER stop until BOTH sides forget all preconceived notions of unmovable positions and posturing.

[denzee]

No more verbal insults for now but I can't promise forever and I'll apologize to dicknose when he comes back. Sorry, I just couldn't help it with that name. Everytime I see it, I think of dick head Certainly not him, just the name.

I also understand your position and that's fine, I just disagree with it Surf.

Nuff said!

[Surffrog]

Originally Posted by denzee

No more verbal insults for now but I can't promise forever and I'll apologize to dicknose when he comes back. Sorry, I just couldn't help it with that name. Everytime I see it, I think of dick head Certainly not him, just the name.

I also understand your position and that's fine, I just disagree with it Surf.

Nuff said!

Fair enough, and I do understand

[denzee]

Man oh man...I mentioned Anti Semitism and the joint clears out. What's with that?

[JEBSTER52]

The Truth Hurts! The strange irony of the folks that side with the Islamofacist would fair no better than those that fight against them...in that they will lose their head via the blade just the same. People need to look closely at history and make a sound decision. When in history has any Country done more to feed and clothe the world. When we were attacked by the Japanese in WWII we defeated them and then rebuilt their nation and brought them in to the market as equal participants and today they are in the top 5 economies of the world. But our complete and total destruction of their cruel and supressive culture is what it took! We then extended our hand and taxpayer dollars and showed them how to play well with others. Tell me when in history has a nation soundly defeated it's enemies after they were viciously attacked and turned around and gave everything back to them with interest! In many ways fuedal Japan was like Radical Islam and we will have to literally make the same battle plan without all this PC crap or it is us that will be destoyed! I really don't expect those that have not seen battle up close to understand it...but reread your true history and open your mind to what is unfolding right now, before it is too late! Jeb

[dicknose]

Originally Posted by JEBSTER52

The Truth Hurts!

So if Im against Israels actions I must be anti-semetic?

I cant simply disagree with military action that kills a large number of civilians.
Or the concept that the side with all the power is the one who needs to use that power with wisdom and compassion.

Maybe the UN is anti-semetic as well.

I mentioned Im atheist to show there was no religious reason why Id be anti-semetic.

And Im not siding with Hamas, I think they are wrong. I just think that what Israel is doing is far worse.

[denzee]

Originally Posted by dicknose

So if Im against Israels actions I must be anti-semetic?

I cant simply disagree with military action that kills a large number of civilians.
Or the concept that the side with all the power is the one who needs to use that power with wisdom and compassion.

Maybe the UN is anti-semetic as well.

I mentioned Im atheist to show there was no religious reason why Id be anti-semetic.

And Im not siding with Hamas, I think they are wrong. I just think that what Israel is doing is far worse.

No it doesn't neccessarily mean you are dicknose. Also being an atheist has no bearing on whether you're A-S or not.

[dicknose]

Originally Posted by denzee

Also being an atheist has no bearing on whether you're A-S or not.

It would seem odd for someone who doesnt believe in a god to dislike a specific religion for no reason. Not very logical.
Would make more sense to dislike all religious people - but then I would dislike muslims.
I just dont see any logic for assuming someone is anti-semitic.

Ive given my reasons why I think their actions are evil.
Nowhere in there was there anything based on religion or race.
So Im not sure how anyone could think that its because Im anti-Semitic.

Someone disagrees with you and you assume they are racist.

Getting back to your comment about International Law.
Why does it only apply to Israel defending itself against Hamas attack?
Why dont the innocent women and children get the same protection under the law?
You mentioned risk posed - is not Israel not only posing a risk, but actually inflicting damage.
How come the law only applies to one side?
Who is defending these innocent people?

Simple questions.
Id prefer a sensible answer rather than being called racist or stupid or generally insulted - that tends to work better in a discussion, but hey thats just my logic and morals!

[denzee]

Originally Posted by dicknose

It would seem odd for someone who doesnt believe in a god to dislike a specific religion for no reason. Not very logical.
Would make more sense to dislike all religious people - but then I would dislike muslims.
I just dont see any logic for assuming someone is anti-semitic.

Ive given my reasons why I think their actions are evil.
Nowhere in there was there anything based on religion or race.
So Im not sure how anyone could think that its because Im anti-Semitic.

Someone disagrees with you and you assume they are racist.

Getting back to your comment about International Law.
Why does it only apply to Israel defending itself against Hamas attack?
Why dont the innocent women and children get the same protection under the law?
You mentioned risk posed - is not Israel not only posing a risk, but actually inflicting damage.
How come the law only applies to one side?
Who is defending these innocent people?

Simple questions.
Id prefer a sensible answer rather than being called racist or stupid or generally insulted - that tends to work better in a discussion, but hey thats just my logic and morals!

First I never called any individual Anti-Semitic. I listed it as a possible reason many including you, were against the Jews.

The parts about international laws were articles I posted but I can comment.
Every Country has a right to defend itself. That is what Israel is doing. If the Hamas are firing rockets from civilian areas and storing and moving weapons in Mosques and Ambulances then that's what is targeted and they themselves become responsible for their own civilian deaths. What is so hard to grasp with that?

The law does not only apply to one side and the Hamas can start by protecting their own people and keeping them out of harms way.

I also have given you many sensible answers but you prefer not to believe them. The names only came after much sensible discussion on my part I thought.

[dicknose]

Originally Posted by denzee

First I never called any individual Anti-Semitic. I listed it as a possible reason many including you, were against the Jews.

Well thats a fundamental mistake there.
Im not "against the Jews"

By even making that assumption you have presumed Im anti-semitic.

Im against the actions of country. Yes that country happens to be Israel.
But that doesnt mean Im "against the Jews"

Every Country has a right to defend itself. That is what Israel is doing. If the Hamas are firing rockets from civilian areas and storing and moving weapons in Mosques and Ambulances then that's what is targeted and they themselves become responsible for their own civilian deaths. What is so hard to grasp with that?

Nothing.

The law does not only apply to one side and the Hamas can start by protecting their own people and keeping them out of harms way.

Woo - hang on.
If Israeli forces are a risk to Palestians civilians - why doesnt this law apply to them? Why should their only option be to keep out of harms way?
Especially when the side attacking them is the one that gets to control where they can move (access in/out of Palestinian areas is controlled by Israel)

So again...
if Israeli forces are a risk to Palestinian children - why doesnt international law apply in terms of the right to defend against an attack by them?
Attacking Israeli forces (not civilians) would seem to be justified, since they pose a significant risk to innocent civilians.

The names only came after much sensible discussion on my part I thought.

Sensible but biased.
Most of what you say can be applied from the others point of view.

This international law for the right to defend yourself also should apply to the Palestinian civilians. Many people (including in the UN organisation) are arguing that Israel is breaking international law in their actions in Gaza.

[Surffrog]

Originally Posted by JEBSTER52

People need to look closely at history and make a sound decision. When in history has any Country done more to feed and clothe the world.When we were attacked by the Japanese in WWII we defeated them and then rebuilt their nation and brought them in to the market as equal participants and today they are in the top 5 economies of the world. But our complete and total destruction of their cruel and supressive culture is what it took! We then extended our hand and taxpayer dollars and showed them how to play well with others. Tell me when in history has a nation soundly defeated it's enemies after they were viciously attacked and turned around and gave everything back to them with interest! In many ways fuedal Japan was like Radical Islam and we will have to literally make the same battle plan without all this PC crap or it is us that will be destoyed! I really don't expect those that have not seen battle up close to understand it...but reread your true history and open your mind to what is unfolding right now, before it is too late! Jeb

Well the Brits (I've just found out) finished paying for the US's participation in WWII last year and we did exactly the same for Germany that the US did for Japan. So I'd say it happened twice in modern history but more often in history than you might think. Twice a nation defeated another and rebuilt it. Hence the saying, "The country that loses the war usually ends up winning in the end."

Btw, the same nation paid (indirectly) for both defeated countries to get rebuilt. Britain.

So I'd you're right. Yes YOU DO need to look closely at history before you start spouting it at everyone else.

And, for your information, the Japanese went on to becoming one of the most peaceful countries on earth, so the US and the UK could learn a thing or two from them.

Originally Posted by dicknose

Well thats a fundamental mistake there.
I'm not "against the Jews"

By even making that assumption you have presumed Im anti-semitic.

I'm against the actions of a country. Yes that country happens to be Israel.
But that doesnt mean I'm "against the Jews"

If Israeli forces are a risk to Palestians civilians - why doesn't this law apply to them? Why should their only option be to keep out of harms way?
Especially when the side attacking them is the one that gets to control where they can move (access in/out of Palestinian areas is controlled by Israel)

So again...
if Israeli forces are a risk to Palestinian children - why doesn't international law apply in terms of the right to defend against an attack by them?
Attacking Israeli forces (not civilians) would seem to be justified, since they pose a significant risk to innocent civilians.


Sensible but biased.
Most of what you say can be applied from the others point of view.

This international law for the right to defend yourself also should apply to the Palestinian civilians. Many people (including in the UN organisation) are arguing that Israel is breaking international law in their actions in Gaza.