[setanta]

Thought that this would have been a hot topic on here at the moment?

IMHO I think it is such an over powerful response to the situation. Those that are going to be affected the most are the civilians, watching the news just now a whole family of civilians have just been rushed to hospital (all died) that brings the total to 495 civilians.
No matter how much the Israelis beat the crap out of the Palestinians, they aren’t going to cow down, maybe Israel should take a leaf out of the Nazi manual (oh maybe they have)
This is a huge shame and although I agree on self defence this is outright bullying with a terrible price for the poor Palestinians.
Another thing that really pisses me of is that the leader of Hamas is preaching war from Lebanon, not many bullets or rockets flying around his head.

[Surffrog]

Originally Posted by setanta

Thought that this would have been a hot topic on here at the moment?

IMHO I think it is such an over powerful response to the situation. Those that are going to be affected the most are the civilians, watching the news just now a whole family of civilians have just been rushed to hospital (all died) that brings the total to 495 civilians.
No matter how much the Israelis beat the crap out of the Palestinians, they aren’t going to cow down, maybe Israel should take a leaf out of the Nazi manual (oh maybe they have)
This is a huge shame and although I agree on self defence this is outright bullying with a terrible price for the poor Palestinians.
Another thing that really pisses me of is that the leader of Hamas is preaching war from Lebanon, not many bullets or rockets flying around his head.

I used to side with the Israelis, but not now. Now I believe they are all as bad as each other. That said, the Palestinians are well aware of the Israeli warning: If you hurt me, i'll kill you.
If you hurt my family, i'll kill your whole village.
If you hurt my village i'll kill you all.

Before you get upset with this, I don't support it. I'm just saying the Palestinians know what's coming when they start firing.

Hiding in civilian areas while firing rockets and missiles at the Israelis is an old Palestinian tactic designed to make the Israelis look bad in the eyes of the world. Unfortunately it doesn't work because the Israelis don't give a sh1t.

[denzee]

It's quite simple really. STOP FIRING ROCKETS INTO ISRAEL, IDIOTS, PERIOD! 7,000 since 2005. Sure many haven't killed as precisely as the Israeli weapons but the threat and scare on a daily basis disrupts everyday life. Would you allow this to continue where you live?

As Surf has said, they fire from civilian areas. They even store them in Mosques and transport them with Ambulances. Some say Israel shouldn't have let it go this long.

Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2006 as part of the peace treaty and gave it back to the Palestinians and what have they done? Use it as a staging area to fire rockets. Now that's smart! That's exactly why they didn't want to give it back.

The media tends to show the destruction in Gaza because there is more of it and more deaths unfortunately. Israel strikes with guided weapons where rockets are fired from. Because of this and the fact that many just plain don't like Jews, people tend to feel sorry for the Palestinians. It is sad that most are innocent and the Hamas including the government allow this to continue without regard for their own people.

Bottom line is there can't be long term peace because the Palestinians are bent on the destruction of Israel. Israel also knows this but goes through the process anyways to gain public support. When a ceasefire does happen, in the past it just allows the Hamas to rebuild for the next round. That is what this campaign is trying to eliminate.

Also Israel going in with a ground campaign is to try and root out the Hamas and the weapon caches and trying to minimize civilian casualties with the risk of losing some of their own soldiers. It's much easier to use an air campaign.

I'm not saying Israel is without blood on their hands completely either. They can be brutal and have made many mistakes in the past as well but they now have no option but to retaliate.

I have done much reading on this subject and anybody who has, will come to the same conclusion. Israel itself is a very productive country and just wants to live in peace, unfortunately they are surrounded by nutbags.

[MACI4LIFE]

here's my logic behind the whole situation.

*high tensions, history.
*fatah ( sp? ) and Hamas fighting for power after that funny looking guy dies ( arafat? )
*fatah more on the side of bring peace with israel, Hamas wants destruction of israel.
*hamas wins landslide vote to put them in power.
*long story short and many other squabbles back and forth, hamas begins firing rockets after the treaty ends.
*israel has had enough. It's time to wipe out the problem.

* in the end I blame the palestinians for voting in the hamas. No one else to blame but themselves. had they voted in the other party, after many hurdles i had no doubt that they would have worked with israel to strengthen the region they'd have many jobs to build infrastructure, new buildings and feed their families.

P.S i'm not jewish.

[FB1000inPA]

I don't understand all the confusion.

It wasn't Israel that started the whole fighting again. It was Hamas who started shooting self-made rockets towards civilians. It is not Israel that hides behind civilians - it's the terrorists who use civilians as shields. It's nothing more than propaganda.

I hope those Israelis really tear into them; a ground incursion is always going to pick up some casualties but our Jewish friends are really pissed off this time around.

It make me wonder what, if anything, was going through the minds of Hamas and its supporters when they decided to start lobbing rockets into Israel. Did they seriously think there would be not be a dramatic retaliation?

I'd like to think that eventually their befuddled intellect would wake to the fact that Israel isn't going anywhere and, like it or not, it's time to just put down the rocks, stop burning the Izzie flags, and just learn to live on the same block together.

I mean, for cryin-out-loud ... even the cavemen evolved, right?

[Surffrog]

If only it were that easy, FB. Unfortunately, while it is the fault of Hamas this time round, throughout history they've both f**ked up any chance of coming out of this smelling of roses.

I see that we're taking the stance that the Palestinians actually believed that their civilians wouldn't get hurt when they started firing. On the contrary, they knew full well. Indeed, they want that to happen in order to fire up further resentment against the Israelis with the rest of the middle east.

As an aside, and this may just be a conspiracy theory, has anyone else noticed that when oil prices are down, groups like Hamas suddenly get funding for new weapons. Ordinarily, when the sh1t starts flying over there, oil prices begin to rise. It just so happens that it didn't seem to work on this occasion.

Just a thought...

[roughneckin]

Originally Posted by Surffrog

If only it were that easy, FB. Unfortunately, while it is the fault of Hamas this time round, throughout history they've both f**ked up any chance of coming out of this smelling of roses.

I see that we're taking the stance that the Palestinians actually believed that their civilians wouldn't get hurt when they started firing. On the contrary, they knew full well. Indeed, they want that to happen in order to fire up further resentment against the Israelis with the rest of the middle east.

As an aside, and this may just be a conspiracy theory, has anyone else noticed that when oil prices are down, groups like Hamas suddenly get funding for new weapons. Ordinarily, when the sh1t starts flying over there, oil prices begin to rise. It just so happens that it didn't seem to work on this occasion.

Just a thought...

The price of oil has been steadily climbing since the rockets started flying into Gaza, as much as $12/bbl....
There is some speculation that because the US supports the invasion so much that the Middle East is going to drive the price of oil up higher due to them stopping shipments to countries supporting Israel, IE...USA.

The Palestinians have a lot to be angry and frustrated about, such as the occupied territories that the Israelis were supposed to leave after the war in 1967. Also the blockades that have been up for the past yr keeping out a lot of essential services like medical supplies.

The problem lies in that the civilians are not the ones that are doing the attacking, it is the terrorists that are lodged within Hamas. Everyone knows that citizens die in wars, but for Israel to be going at them with such force might be a little over the top.
It is well and good to protect your own, I believe that everyone has the opportunity to do so, but if say a small group of people in Washington State decided that they needed to attack Canada with rocket fire we wouldn't start a full scale war with the entire US. Not that we would want to, our bb guns wouldn't do much harm anyways. It should be dealt with discretion IMO. Attack them like the CIA did, or tried to, with Fidel. Go in and hunt them down that are doing it. That in itself I think would scare a bit of sense back into them.
The last time I visited Israel they had a new museum up called Yad Vesham, The New Museum. My wife and I went through it and as we were doing this there came in about 300 Isaeli army troops. This museum shows so much death and distruction that the Nazis did to the Jews that it is scary to think that these troops, which average age was about 19, were being brainwashed into thinking that the Palastinians were going to do this to them if they did not hold firm and fight every moment that they could.
I agree that neither side is coming out of this looking spectacular, but like was stated before, this is all about posturing, Hama's for sympathy from the world, and Israel to show they will not be f'd with and lose the ground they so desperately fought for in the past.

[setanta]

Some good interesting points made, there just seems to be one missing. It’s effortlessly forgotten that Israel set up this state after the Second World War based on a book which leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to specifics. Now the Palestinians have been living there for thousands of years, it’s no wonder they are pissed off at loosing their Homeland. I mean how the hell would you feel if you had a homestead in your family for generations after generation to wake up some morning with a Yank (English, French, Aussie, fill in whatever ) Jew living in part of it, stating that its his God given right to be here. In case you are slightly peeved at this situation and you want to have words, you can, as long as you can get past the rifles, the tanks and the Apache helicopters. Not only has one moved in but loads have followed and they have cut off the access you have to your last piece of land rendering you into total poverty.
Palestinians have been forced to live in abject poverty and homelessness no wonder they are angry, they are desperate. I mean die by being bombed or by hunger and disease, some choice??
Before someone jumps in here I know that Arafat and his goons stole millions from the Palestinian people that was the main reason his party got the elbow at the elections.
Israel’s actions here are diabolical and surely they must know by now that this sort of action just doesn’t work, for every Hamas soldier they kill there will be ten young people willing to fill their boots. This action is only going to increase the hatred among the general people and to be honest will set things back a lot.
Food, medication, jobs that’s what Israel should be pumping into Palestine, I bet it would cost them less that this campaign will, mind you I suppose America will be footing the bill anyway.
I know if someone came into my country set up shop and told me to get to f*** Id be very pi**ed off (wonder if being Irish gives me a little insight)
Last piece of news I heard was that they targeted a school run by the UN (40+ dead), try explaining that away

[Grover130]

These people will fight forever. Sad but true.

[Surffrog]

Originally Posted by setanta

I know if someone came into my country set up shop and told me to get to f*** Id be very pi**ed off (wonder if being Irish gives me a little insight)

Very possibly, the Brits were (in part) involved in helping the Israelis move in.

[.OrgOwner]

I don't think it matters what either side does they both just hate each other to the point you would have to say it's almost genetic. Do you think they have actaully stopped over the last however many years and taken a good look at what they are fighting over? It's way past real estate and all about hatred and these guys are never going to be happy living next door to each other.

[Surffrog]

Originally Posted by .OrgOwner

I don't think it matters what either side does they both just hate each other to the point you would have to say it's almost genetic. Do you think they have actaully stopped over the last however many years and taken a good look at what they are fighting over? It's way past real estate and all about hatred and these guys are never going to be happy living next door to each other.

Absolutely. Aside from Israel moving to some remote island in the middle of nowhere and promising never to speak to anyone ever again, the Palestinians promising never to hurt another jew again and also moving out of the area, there won't be peace...

[.OrgOwner]

In which case the only real option is a 3rd party to sort out the mess.....

[Surffrog]

Which the US has been trying for years...

[.OrgOwner]

Neutral 3rd party then...

[Surffrog]

Originally Posted by .OrgOwner

Neutral 3rd party then...

And there in lies the $64 million question: Who? And don't say Switzerland because they wouldn't let jews into the country during WWII, so Israel wont accept that country...

[dicknose]

Originally Posted by denzee

I'm not saying Israel is without blood on their hands completely either. They can be brutal and have made many mistakes in the past as well but they now have no option but to retaliate.

Why?
Will attacking stop the rockets?
Or is it about revenge??

How many people have died from Hamas rocket attacks in the last 6 months
How many people have died from Israels attacks in the last week
Its probably bigger than 10 - 1 ratio

I have done much reading on this subject and anybody who has, will come to the same conclusion. Israel itself is a very productive country and just wants to live in peace, unfortunately they are surrounded by nutbags.

They want to live in peace - but kill thousands.
These killings dont seem to have brought either side much closer to peace but both sides seem quite happy to kill more.

They also get to control the conditions for the Palestinian people, they control most of their access and basic services. The Red Cross has described the situation leading up to this recent offensive as a humanitarian crisis.

[dicknose]

Originally Posted by Surffrog

Which the US has been trying for years...

Debatable!

They certainly have used their power in the UN to block any actions against Israel. The same UN that they then complained about when they didnt get their way with action against Iraq.

Much of the US hatred in the arab world is due to what is seen as siding with Israel rather than being an impartial helper.

[Surffrog]

Originally Posted by dicknose

Why?
Will attacking stop the rockets?
Or is it about revenge??

How many people have died from Hamas rocket attacks in the last 6 months
How many people have died from Israels attacks in the last week
Its probably bigger than 10 - 1 ratio


They want to live in peace - but kill thousands.
These killings dont seem to have brought either side much closer to peace but both sides seem quite happy to kill more.

They also get to control the conditions for the Palestinian people, they control most of their access and basic services. The Red Cross has described the situation leading up to this recent offensive as a humanitarian crisis.

And yet supporters and critics offer no real solutions to end the killings. The Brits keep well away from it now, possibly out of shame, the US has been trying but are all to obviously allies to the Israelis and the rest of the middle east are quite happy for it to continue as long as jews are in harms way and occasionally get killed. Aside from evacuating the whole area and then dropping a couple of nukes on it to ensure no one can live there even if they wanted to, you just can't get around the hatred...

[denzee]

If it were me, I'd move to another place but they won't because they were there in Biblical times and portions of the area, namely Jerusalem are the Holy land to them and also Palestinians.

[denzee]

Originally Posted by dicknose

Why?
Will attacking stop the rockets?
Or is it about revenge??

How many people have died from Hamas rocket attacks in the last 6 months
How many people have died from Israels attacks in the last week
Its probably bigger than 10 - 1 ratio


They want to live in peace - but kill thousands.
These killings dont seem to have brought either side much closer to peace but both sides seem quite happy to kill more.

They also get to control the conditions for the Palestinian people, they control most of their access and basic services. The Red Cross has described the situation leading up to this recent offensive as a humanitarian crisis.

Come on dicknose, 7000 plus rockets since 2005. That's not enough to retaliate? What is then? The only reason and believe me, the ONLY reason the Israeli deaths aren't higher is because the Palestinians are shooting dumb rockets. Many land in fields but that's after the warning sirens and people running for their lives as the rockets fly overhead. It's fear they impose. If they had guided weapons, they'd be using them.
Israel on the other hand has all the toys. Guided everything and they strike where rockets are fired from unfortunately civilian areas.
It also was the British with the UN that put the Jews there in 1948 after the war. The area was a region occupied by the Palestinians. It was not a state or a country either.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by Surffrog

Very possibly, the Brits were (in part) involved in helping the Israelis move in.

Originally Posted by .OrgOwner

I don't think it matters what either side does they both just hate each other to the point you would have to say it's almost genetic. Do you think they have actaully stopped over the last however many years and taken a good look at what they are fighting over? It's way past real estate and all about hatred and these guys are never going to be happy living next door to each other.

Originally Posted by denzee

Come on dicknose, 7000 plus rockets since 2005. That's not enough to retaliate? What is then? The only reason and believe me, the ONLY reason the Israeli deaths aren't higher is because the Palestinians are shooting dumb rockets. Many land in fields but that's after the warning sirens and people running for their lives as the rockets fly overhead. It's fear they impose. If they had guided weapons, they'd be using them.
Israel on the other hand has all the toys. Guided everything and they strike where rockets are fired from unfortunately civilian areas.
It also was the British with the UN that put the Jews there in 1948 after the war. The area was a region occupied by the Palestinians. It was not a state or a country either.

True enough Surff, but again that’s in the past its about time they started looking at the now.
As far as the US helping that's a laugh, in reality they have always sided with the Jews for God sake the keep the state afloat. Without the help of the US Israel would be fec*ed. So if in the simplest of terms, if you want to stop Israel all the States have to do is pull the financial support. You can’t fly jets, helicopters, fire expensive rockets or run tanks on empty air. Oh no but USA wants the Israel state there to exist at ANY cost.
I have lived in the middle of a war torn country and your perceptions change drastically. You get acclimatised to things that outsiders would pee their pants about. Lumps of ineffective metal falling around you from time to time becomes the norm (a lot of you just wont believe that I know). Its a bit like the car owner just cant understand why we take a 200mph rocket out for a spin anytime we get the chance they think we are mad but we know the dangers and live with it (ok that’s self imposed and is a little different but I am trying to use an analogy that you can understand, oh not patronising btw) So to get back to my point the Israel people have had to live with this little itch for the last 4ish years, its the price they have to pay for kicking the indigenous people out of their homes and then treated them worse than domestics animals. The Palestinians have had to live without human rights and in a lot of cases basic amenities also Israel has made it almost impossible for them even to get to their work if they have any. Now if you keep poking a dog long enough with a stick it will eventually go mad and turn on you, Israel sowed the seedsnow they are reaping the crop. Honestly stray dogs are treated better by the Israelis.
Now as far as both sides completely hating each other, that's a huge generalization and not a true one. On both sides there are quite significant peace movements actually within both states; unfortunately it’s the guys with the loudest voices and biggest guns that hug the headlines.
Oh history question: who shoved the Jews straight back into concentration camps after WW2, clue the country that invented concentration camps to begin with?

[FB1000inPA]

I would let the Germans sort it out. Germany has good relationships with both sides.
I understand there was the WWII thingy but Israel and Germany moved on and relationships are good. Besides that, more Jews have been immigrating to Germany than Israel in the last 5 to 10 years.

As for the war: What was first - the egg or the chicken?

Let's see. There was always war in the region between Jews, Christians, and Muslims. I can't even say who is right and who is wrong. I also can't say who started it.

All I can do is look at the more recent events starting from the Six Day War to the Yom Kippur War to the current fighting in the Gaza Strip.

It seems that Israel wasn't the aggressor in any of the current wars.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by FB1000inPA

I would let the Germans sort it out. Germany has good relationships with both sides.
I understand there was the WWII thingy but Israel and Germany moved on and relationships are good. Besides that, more Jews have been immigrating to Germany than Israel in the last 5 to 10 years.

As for the war: What was first - the egg or the chicken?

Let's see. There was always war in the region between Jews, Christians, and Muslims. I can't even say who is right and who is wrong. I also can't say who started it.

All I can do is look at the more recent events starting from the Six Day War to the Yom Kippur War to the current fighting in the Gaza Strip.

It seems that Israel wasn't the aggressor in any of the current wars.

Really FB so when the Israelis went there after ww2 the Palistinians invited them to take their homes and lands??

[JEBSTER52]

Which is a Democracy? Which has a Mission statement that states they will drive the other into the ocean and teaches their children to kill anyone that sides with the Great Satin? Which is dominated by a religion that surpresses freedom and kills anyone that fails to convert? Which side uses mentally retarded children to strap on bombs? Which group of people would fight by the side of all freedom loving people?

[denzee]

You have to remember setanta, the Palestinians didn't own the region so to speak. Yes they lived in the region. They have never been able to get a state or country going. Israel even helped them govern for a time at their own request. Truth is they couldn't organize a bingo if you gave them instructions. Sorry but that's their history. All they know is violence.

After WWII there was an agreement that involved all parties for the Jews to be placed there. It had its restrictions of course.

Having said that the Palastinians still have a right to exist in their region in peace.

Also I'm going to take some flak for this maybe, but the rest of the Arabs don't like the Palestinians either. They are considered the dredges or nomads of the Arab world. Only thing is, they hate the Jews worse.

In view of that I think that Iran, Syria and Egypt all supply the Hamas with supplies for these rockets so they'll fire them into Israel and get the s**t kicked out of them.

It's win win for those countries because they don't care about the Palestinians getting killed and they certainly don't care about the Jews being killed and it makes Israel look bad in the mean time.

Basically the Palestinians are being used as pawns which is really sick. Keep giving them rockets and they'll fire then at any cost.

What are your feelings about my last part? Any truth to it ya think?

[FB1000inPA]

Originally Posted by setanta

Really FB so when the Israelis went there after ww2 the Palistinians invited them to take their homes and lands??

Come on setanta. The saga started earlier than that. You remember the Old Testament??

[setanta]

Originally Posted by JEBSTER52

Which is a Democracy? Which has a Mission statement that states they will drive the other into the ocean and teaches their children to kill anyone that sides with the Great Satin? Which is dominated by a religion that surpresses freedom and kills anyone that fails to convert? Which side uses mentally retarded children to strap on bombs? Which group of people would fight by the side of all freedom loving people?

If the words were to be changed slightly, then it would be a rant from the islamic extremists (kettle calling the pot black).
I think you have a great misunderstanding of the Qouran.
Democracy you say then why in its total history is it that the palistinians living in the israel state have never been allowed to vote??

[setanta]

Originally Posted by denzee

You have to remember setanta, the Palestinians didn't own the region so to speak.


In view of that I think that Iran, Syria and Egypt all supply the Hamas with supplies for these rockets so they'll fire them into Israel and get the s**t kicked out of them.

Basically the Palestinians are being used as pawns which is really sick. Keep giving them rockets and they'll fire then at any cost.

What are your feelings about my last part? Any truth to it ya think?

Own the land? how does one get the right to say they have owned it, usually its dictated by a war. No matter what way you look at it the only rights that the Jews have to this land is down to a book of fiction.
Another anomoly is the fact that we declare internationally that roaming beast have a right to their paths, but a tribe of people no.
I have to admit unwillingly to have a certain amout of belief in your theory. I have never understood why the rest of the Arab world just dont come out and give their support to the Palestinians. Also as you say they can get the Palestinians to throw their stones for them (they can sit back and look good).

Originally Posted by FB1000inPA

Come on setanta. The saga started earlier than that. You remember the Old Testament??

I know but dont you think its a shame that fairy stories caused and is still doing, causing so much grief.

[FB1000inPA]

Originally Posted by setanta

I know but dont you think its a shame that fairy stories caused and is still doing, causing so much grief.

Fairy? Maybe. But what is the OT really? Isn't it a way to relay values to coming generations? Which implies that jews weren't publicly allowed to live their way of life. Which also means that they were forced to live by non Jewish rule. Now the table has turned. However, Israel is not forcing the Hamas to fight. They do that on their own.
Therefore, it's not an invasion but a retaliation for attacks on civilians. The difference is that the IDF is not hiding behind civilians but fights in the open not like the Hamas who hides behind civilians.
Why did the Hamas start the fight again? Food was delivered freely, so was medication, so was the open borders. Life was stable overall. So why did they start again?