Sad day for my RC (updated)

DUX · 12-08-2005, 9:08 PM

I noticed about a month ago that my RC had developed two cracks in the welds that hold the radiator mounts to the frame.

The bike has been on the road for under 6 months and 2,000 miles and is still under warranty. It has never been raced, dropped, or abused. In fact, the front wheel hasn't ever left the ground.

The regional Honda rep came out to the dealer today to look at it and within 3hrs called me back to say that Honda hasn't seen this problem before and wants the frame for analysis. He has admitted that it was human error that screwed up the welds and they want me to take the bike to a Honda shop of my choice for a new frame.

Now the delimma. The new frame will not have a VIN #. It will have a "reference" number that matches the bike to my title. I haven't been able to get a good answer from the DMV, but this just doesn't sound good to me as far as the value of the bike goes. Would you pay top dollar for a used bike that has had the frame replaced, even with an explanation like this?

I absolutely LOVE this machine, and with the exception of the welds there isn't a scratch on it. I'm stuck on what to do.

I've told the rep that I either want a new 2004 RC, or I want Honda to buy the bike back from me. Needless to say, he wasn't very receptive. After initially declining to offer an extended warranty, he now says that it might be something he can "help me out with."

The bike is titled in Delaware, but was purchased new in Pa. Does anyone know how the lemon-laws apply? I know that the dealer is supposed to get a chance to fix it, but I'm hoping that there is a stipulation that applies in this case. It's not as if they're changing the swing-arm, a wheel, or even the motor. IMO, changing the frame will seriously de-value the bike.

I intend to push it up higher through Honda, although the rep said it would just wind up back in his court. Not that it matters to them, but I intend to remind them that in the past 3yrs I've purchased (new) two VTX 1800's, a VTX 1300, a CBR 954RR, and my RC-51. In addition, I've been directly responsible for at least three other people buying Honda's in the past year.

Please let me know if you have any expertise with this situation.

The cracks didn't show up in the pics, so I've drawn a line where they are. I don't know much about welding, but if you look inside the red circles, you can see some bubbles or overspray (for lack of a better term.)

southpark460 · 12-08-2005, 9:17 PM

With them already offering to take the frame back and replace it, I think going up the ladder will net you the results you want. I would definitely stick to your guns and insist on a new one. The lack of a "normal" title will affect your resale and/or trade-in ability if you ever decide to trade up/out.

BDA116 · 12-08-2005, 9:25 PM

When I replaced the frame on my Honda Rincon, they stamped it with the initial VIN, and I gave them my bent frame back. Are you sure the new frame won't be stamped with your VIN?
It shouldn't affect the title status, and I'd guess that it wouldn't negatively affect resale value.
I know dirt toys are a completely different game, but the frame swap didn't hurt my Rincon resale value at all.

DUX · 12-08-2005, 9:30 PM

I asked the rep multiple times, and the VIN will not be on the frame.

On a side note, will the bike ever be the same after it's been taken apart and put back together?

CBR929RE · 12-08-2005, 9:32 PM

if you don't get the new one like you want and are basicaly forced to keep the bike and get the new frame don't worry too much. I'll take it off your hands for a fair price once spring comes around.

why can't they get you a frame that has a vin (and title, which they should pay for any registration transfer fees also)

BDA116 · 12-08-2005, 9:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DUX

I asked the rep multiple times, and the VIN will not be on the frame.

On a side note, will the bike ever be the same after it's been taken apart and put back together?

No reason it wouldn't be just as good if not better. There's really not a whole lot to it. Make them reassemble with new swingarm and steering bearings and the chassis will be factory fresh. They won't be opening up the engine, so there shouldn't be any detriment there.
As long as the tech was somewhat competent it will be fine.
I did the frame swap on my Rincon myself, and it took me an entire Saturday. A sport bike would be a hell of a lot easier.
I doubt they'd let you do it yourself as it's a warranty deal and mine was an insurance deal.

sheepofblue · 12-08-2005, 9:46 PM

I see no reason it would not be as good and maybe better if the right tech does it. However a new VIN would greatly affect value in my mind and I would argue that to them to get fair compensation. While they have a right to repair it that means back to original which a VIN change would not be. Good luck and sorry you had to go through the hassle.

ND4SPD · 12-08-2005, 9:47 PM

The guy admitted to faulty workmanship...I say that deserves a new RC. I wouldn't settle for anything less.

phobiaphobe · 12-08-2005, 9:55 PM

I think you should push for a replacement bike. The guy has the ability to make that happen, you just have to ask hard enough. Every day.

Having said that, changing the frame wouldn't hurt one bit, unless the tech is an asshole.

Edit: Honda wouldn't even be out the full cost of a new bike... cuz they get yours back and can wholesale it to a dealer for a few grand.

luvtolean · 12-08-2005, 9:56 PM

Man, I'm not the trusting sort of techs. But indeed it would hurt nothing if done properly.

I would not settle for a frame without a VIN.

Getsome · 12-08-2005, 10:03 PM

Push them on the issue. You've got a few months to fight with them before it's riding season again and I think you'll have it turned your direction before then...

jetbdude · 12-09-2005, 12:08 AM

Give the rep a link to this web site and this thread, or better, you start a new one where we are all

For me it would be first: a new bike, second a frame with a VIN, hell it's not like Honda does not have the technology for stamping a freaking plate with your hold VIN on it

Hammer · 12-09-2005, 12:27 AM

New bike.

Their screw up = Their problem

ALVAROG1983 · 12-09-2005, 3:26 AM

new bike f*7%k that there problem not yours you paid the money for a good bike (new)

davef · 12-09-2005, 6:42 AM

Get a new bike!

By the way, you guys have high degree of confidence in the dealer's ability to swap a frame out competently. From what I've seen at almost every dealership (car or bike) I bet your tech would finish the job with a handful of parts left over.

They would go in the trash (or on Ebay) and you would go on your way in complete ignorance.

Either way, good luck.

luvtolean · 12-09-2005, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davef

By the way, you guys have high degree of confidence in the dealer's ability to swap a frame out competently. From what I've seen at almost every dealership (car or bike)

It's like anything else, it depends on the guy spinning the wrenches. I've been to shops where I'd definately trust them to do it. And others, I wouldn't let polish my bike.

DUX · 12-09-2005, 6:26 PM

Well, my blind confidence and faith in Honda to do the right thing has been smashed.

I tried to call the customer service center this morning and was treated rudely by the rep. I got off the phone, called back 1/2 an hour later and asked to speak with someone else. They refused, and put me back through to the previous agent. I got nowhere with them. They would not give me any other contact numbers, stating that all business had to go through the dealer and the regional rep.

The regional rep called me back today. I restated that a frame without a VIN was unacceptable due to decreased resale value and that taking the bike apart and having it reassembled around a new frame would not provide me with the confidence one should have while riding.

We discussed welding the frame, even though it probably wouldn't look "factory" when done. I'm ok with fixing it if I can be confident that other welds aren't likely to break, especially in critical areas. When I asked if he had checked to see which (if any) other welds on the frame were done by the same robot or person, he told me that it was "proprietary information" and would not be given out.

Long story short, after getting into a heated discussion he told me to accept the new frame, get the welds fixed, or stuff it. He refused to pass the info higher up the chain, and flat out would not give me a contact number for someone else with more decision making power than himself.

I'm still not sure which way to go. I can get the new frame switched at a shop that I really do trust in NJ. The rep offered to try and work a "deal" for me on an extended warranty. IMO, that shouldn't even be talked about. They should give me one at no cost.

If they would let me in on their "proprietary secrets" I might accept a fix on the current frame, but I don't see that happening.

I hope someone, somewhere at Honda gets to read this. I've already listed the vehicles that I bought recently. Part of me purchased them out of pure desire for the machine itself. More importantly, the fact that they were Hondas played a HUGE factor in my decision to hand over my cash without reservation. Unfortunately, next time around, Honda will no longer have that edge.

sheepofblue · 12-09-2005, 6:35 PM

First it ain't proprietary he just doesn't know.

I tried to find info on corporate officers but did not. Sometimes a nice letter to an officer or PR helps nudge a regional rep.

The only other thing I could think of is your local lawyer/DA or possibly a government oversite organization (none comes to mind)

DUX · 12-09-2005, 6:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepofblue

First it ain't proprietary he just doesn't know.

I tried to find info on corporate officers but did not. Sometimes a nice letter to an officer or PR helps nudge a regional rep.

The only other thing I could think of is your local lawyer/DA or possibly a government oversite organization (none comes to mind)

I talked to the Attorney General's office today. No leg to stand on until the dealer has a chance to fix it. By then, it's too late.

I'm probably going to go with the frame swap. I don't intend on selling the bike. If I do, it will be years from now and it won't be worth enough to sweat over anyway. At least I'll keep telling myself that..........

Honda will get a letter from me. Whether they were going to meet my wishes or not, I shouldn't have been treated like they were doing me a favor by fixing their F#$k up.

southpark460 · 12-09-2005, 7:17 PM

Like you asked earlier, I'd check out the lemon laws in your area. Most places, they get three chances to fix it and then it goes to mediation. You could just go straight there and argue that their attempt to repair your vehicle is unacceptable. And you may be able to argue that since the frame is the basis for the vehicle, that their desire to take the frame back and replace it constitutes giving you a different vehicle than the one you took in? Are you in Deleware? Lemon laws in DE don't seem to cover motorcycles...

seamus · 12-09-2005, 9:07 PM

Get his name, address, and phone number and I'll show up at his office for you.

luvtolean · 12-09-2005, 9:36 PM

Go to Honda's corporate website and find some marketing director or something like that. Send him a nasty gram, and call him. With the web, you should be able to do better than this clown. Make sure you write down the dates and times of the discussions if you haven't already. Great for cred as you go up the chain.

If American Honda is a public company, you can find everything online.

DO NOT let someone weld that frame. That frame broke due to poor welding. There's nothing saying other welds on it are any better. The heating of the weld area is critical to strength, and who knows what has been done to the material properties of the aluminum around the welds throughout the frame. The heat treat of the frame will be undone in the heat affected area of the weld too.

Welding heat treated aluminum is a roll of the dice. I wouldn't make that roll on your nice new, under warranty RC.