[BDA116]

OK, one more I guess.
Let's go in a completely different direction here.
Do you believe that King Henry the 8th existed and why?

[ER]

Originally Posted by Rios929

I don't think you got my point. BDA said that scientists once believed the the earth was flat, earth was in the center, etc. and I was just pointing out that scientists discovered the truth, and the church fought it as hard as it could. So it was ironic of him to use that as an example of where science has failed.

"The Church" doesn't necessarily represent God. If you're going to look at various churches and organized religions to determine whether or not God exists, you're going to let yourself down. You can find whatever you're looking for in today's society.

[nomad]

[Rios929]

Originally Posted by BDA116

That is the point. Sure, we have fossils showing that what we call dinosaurs existed, although there is no way to say with 100% surety that the way scientists envision them is the way they were.
But, they could have existed on a separate planet than this. Use either theory - if the Earth was created by a God, he could have used matter floating around to configure it, and some of that matter could have been from a separate planet that exploded - the planet the dinosaurs existed on. If the Earth was created with the "big bang" theory then the same scenario could be used: the matter was close by, and was integrated into this planet.
Did God do this to throw scientists off? Absolutely possible. Did He just use matter to create the world that happened to have the dino bones? Sure it's possible. Did the dinos exist here in the way some "expert" drew them up? Possible.
My point is that none of the above can be proven 100%. You happen to have faith in the "big bang", I happen to have faith in a God.
Is there a lot more proof that dinos existed than a God? That fully depends on your idea of proof, and you choose to believe what some self described experts have written.
And that is perfectly fine, as is the belief that a God created the world.

I'm sorry but to say those things you would have to dismiss thousands of years of humanity trying their best to explain their existance. The smartest people to ever live, and you are throwing away their life's work like it was nothing.

You can give these people a sheep, and they will clone it for you and make you an exact copy, but you don't think they can tell you how old some bones are?

Radiometric dating doesn't lie. Those bones are only millions of years old. The earth is over a billion.

These scientific findings obviously can't be proved 100%. But the existance of god can be proved 0%.

Have you ever hear of occam's razor ?

[Rios929]

Originally Posted by BDA116

OK, one more I guess.
Let's go in a completely different direction here.
Do you believe that King Henry the 8th existed and why?

Are you comparing Henry the 8th to god or jesus? Anyway, yeah I guess I do. You can trace his lineage to today. You can see paintings of him painted by someone right in front of him. Shakespeare wrote a play about his great grandpa. I don't know what to tell you I guess...

Oh yeah, you can become a member of, in my opinion, one of the most worthless denominations of christianity...the anglican church...started by him so he could get a divorce.

Edit: Earlier i said i have a biology major, sorry It's just a minor.

[figment]

Originally Posted by nomad

By your own logic, would you say that ignorant people never sin then? Truly it's bliss...

yes, thats is what I'm saying.

[BDA116]

Originally Posted by Rios929

I'm sorry but to say those things you would have to dismiss thousands of years of humanity trying their best to explain their existance. The smartest people to ever live, and you are throwing away their life's work like it was nothing.

No different than throwing away the Bible, which is the life's work of many others.

Originally Posted by Rios929

These scientific findings obviously can't be proved 100%. But the existance of god can be proved 0%.

I could say the same. The theory of relativity and the whole space/time continuum can be proven 0%
the existence of God can be proven beyond reasonable doubt when you allow spritual evidence to come into play.

I'm just trying to offer up a different point of view. You beleive 100% in the scientific community, and that is fine, but they are wrong more often than they are right. Most of the theories can NOT be proven at all.
I believe in God, which should also be fine - espescially to those that claim to be intellectually elite. So science can't prove that a God exists. I can dismiss that completely because of science's track record.
However, why can't there be a balance? God very well may have used adaptation in the creation. God may have used an "explosion of gasses" to create the world. There may be a lot of God's work in what science is trying to prove and disprove, but they won't allow any other evidence into their equations than what they believe to be true.
Throwing away either argument is wrong.

[ER]

Originally Posted by Rios929

Radiometric dating doesn't lie. Those bones are only millions of years old. The earth is over a billion.Have you ever hear of occam's razor ?

This discussion is getting a bit crowded. Here, read an opposing point of view to evolution and Carbon-14 dating. Read both sides. Yo sound as blindly loyal to the Evolutionists as you accuse some of being towards creation.

[BDA116]

Originally Posted by Rios929

Are you comparing Henry the 8th to god or jesus? Anyway, yeah I guess I do. You can trace his lineage to today. You can see paintings of him painted by someone right in front of him. Shakespeare wrote a play about his great grandpa. I don't know what to tell you I guess...

Oh yeah, you can become a member of, in my opinion, one of the most worthless denominations of christianity...the anglican church...started by him so he could get a divorce.

Edit: Earlier i said i have a biology major, sorry It's just a minor.

Not at all. Just comparing the arguments.
You have to believe those that trace his lineage, don't you?
The "royal family" can trace their blood lineage all the way back to Jesus Christ, so do you believe that, too?
There are paintings of Jesus also. Some that claim to have had Jesus appear to them say the paintings are accurate.
How do you know that the paintings of Henry the 8th were done by people sitting in front of him? Because someone said so?
Haven't there been plays written about Jesus also?

My point is, you have to believe what is written of Henry the 8th to believe he existed.
How is that any different than believing in Christ's existence becasue of what has been written?

[Rios929]

Originally Posted by BDA116

No different than throwing away the Bible, which is the life's work of many others.



I could say the same. The theory of relativity and the whole space/time continuum can be proven 0%
the existence of God can be proven beyond reasonable doubt when you allow spritual evidence to come into play.

I'm just trying to offer up a different point of view. You beleive 100% in the scientific community, and that is fine, but they are wrong more often than they are right. Most of the theories can NOT be proven at all.
I believe in God, which should also be fine - espescially to those that claim to be intellectually elite. So science can't prove that a God exists. I can dismiss that completely because of science's track record.
However, why can't there be a balance? God very well may have used adaptation in the creation. God may have used an "explosion of gasses" to create the world. There may be a lot of God's work in what science is trying to prove and disprove, but they won't allow any other evidence into their equations than what they believe to be true.
Throwing away either argument is wrong.

Science is based on disproof, thats how we improve. There is nothing wrong with that. The scietific community welcomes change, it the religious community that doesn't.

I really like your "balance" idea. This is the only way I could believe in god again...Maybe god used evolution as a mechanism for creation...But I could never take the bible literally, as many christians do.


By the way their is an experiment being done right now to examine relativity/space time. It invloves a pinpong ball sized gyroscope in space, and I have absolutely no idea how it works.

[Rios929]

Originally Posted by BDA116

Not at all. Just comparing the arguments.
You have to believe those that trace his lineage, don't you?
The "royal family" can trace their blood lineage all the way back to Jesus Christ, so do you believe that, too?
There are paintings of Jesus also. Some that claim to have had Jesus appear to them say the paintings are accurate.
How do you know that the paintings of Henry the 8th were done by people sitting in front of him? Because someone said so?
Haven't there been plays written about Jesus also?

My point is, you have to believe what is written of Henry the 8th to believe he existed.
How is that any different than believing in Christ's existence becasue of what has been written?

I'm not really argueing that christ didn't exist.

I guess I believe that henry viii existed with common sense...something you can't say for the existance of god...otherwise this would not be such a timeless debate.

[dB]

Originally Posted by Rios929

By the way their is an experiment being done right now to examine relativity/space time. It invloves a pinpong ball sized gyroscope in space, and I have absolutely no idea how it works.

That would be Gravity Probe-B. I think it was supposed to launch yesterday? The idea is that the axis of rotation of the gyro will shift slightly if it passes through a variance in the earth's gravitational field.

BTW, I'd hoped this thread wouldn't become a quest for physical proof because I don't think there are answers there for the non-believers. But since it has, I have to say you guys are doing a nice job of question and answer without resorting to angry name calling. Thanks to figment, ER, and BDA for articulating stuff I can't, and thanks to Rios for representing the other side.

edit: story about Gravity Probe-B Launch

[Rios929]

Originally Posted by dB

That would be Gravity Probe-B. I think it was supposed to launch yesterday? The idea is that the axis of rotation of the gyro will shift slightly if it passes through a variance in the earth's gravitational field.

BTW, I'd hoped this thread wouldn't become a quest for physical proof because I don't think there are answers there for the non-believers. But since it has, I have to say you guys are doing a nice job of question and answer without resorting to angry name calling. Thanks to figment, ER, and BDA for articulating stuff I can't, and thanks to Rios for representing the other side.

Yeah that's the one. Crazy stuff.

Yeah, this has been a great discussion. I have to go for a few hours so I won't be able to respond till tonight. Have a good afternoon guys

[BDA116]

Originally Posted by dB

......... But since it has, I have to say you guys are doing a nice job of question and answer without resorting to angry name calling....

Oh yeah? well since you brought it up........you suck!! Oh, and you're a cockhole, too!!!


Yeah, once in a while there is actually a healthy debate without extraneous crap involved (and I'll readily admit to being part of said extraneous crap).

[ER]

Originally Posted by dB

BTW, I'd hoped this thread wouldn't become a quest for physical proof because I don't think there are answers there for the non-believers. But since it has, I have to say you guys are doing a nice job of question and answer without resorting to angry name calling. Thanks to figment, ER, and BDA for articulating stuff I can't, and thanks to Rios for representing the other side.

The unfortunate thing is that some people will try so hard NOT to believe in God, when I feel evidence of His existence is all around us. They're missing out on a love-relationship with their Father and Creator because of that! While the Bible makes many claims and prophesies that can be proved, it leaves room for our relationships to grow based on faith, one of the biggest messages in the Scriptures.

[figment]

Originally Posted by dB

BTW, I'd hoped this thread wouldn't become a quest for physical proof because I don't think there are answers there for the non-believers.

DB, it is my belief that it is by design that Gods existence can not be proven absolutely. Therefor, I try not to offer proof of what He does not provide. I am only to be His witness and to offer a reason for the hope that I have in Him.

[coderedcbr]

How do we know if God is a he or she? and what color is Jesus? The only reason I ask is that I work at a funeral home so I go to many different Churches for funeral services and he is alway a different color. What is up with that? He is form the middle east history points out right?

[figment]

Originally Posted by coderedcbr

How do we know if God is a he or she? and what color is Jesus? The only reason I ask is that I work at a funeral home so I go to many different Churches for funeral services and he is alway a different color. What is up with that? He is form the middle east history points out right?

God is not a sexual being like we are. He has created us to be like Him though in differnent ways. Jesus was most likely a very dark complected man with short, tightly curled hair like the Arabs and Jews of that region look today. He probably looked nothing like most of the paintings we see...

[dB]

Originally Posted by BDA116

Oh yeah? well since you brought it up........you suck!! Oh, and you're a cockhole, too!!!

Well, it couldn't last forever.

[BlueToy]

I only just found this SIG, I've read most of what people are saying and thought I'd add my 2c

I don't believe, but at the same time I'm open to the idea, I, personally haven't seen any proof of a god, I think the bible and books of other religions are more to keep people living in a fairly harmonious fashon - the arab scripts teach them to eat with their right hand and why it's somewhat of a paux pas to shake with your left (this is why we shake hands with our right hand) and wipe their arses with their left, it's just a guideline that helps people not get sick and spread disease.

The religous wars that people have had over time are not becasue of any malicious intent from the religions, but think about it, if some guys came into your town and told you that everything you have believed your whole life is wrong then of course it's going to end up in a fight.

Here's something to think about, we are just animals, surely both sides of the fence can agree on that? we have the same organs and structure as all the other mammals. Why are we the only ones that have souls that can be banished to hell for not doing the right thing? other animals kill their own species, other animals go around and mate with many partners, what is different about humans? why is it "bad" to mate with many partners according to the bible it is?

I think that there is no god, we are jsut animals except that we have larger brains, so we can think of these stories/guidelines.

who wasn't told when they were young something to make them behave that was actually false? eg "you have to stay in bed, there's a crocodile under it and he'll bite your toes off if you keep getting up" it's the same thing but on a larger scale isn't it?

Religion doesn't do any harm to a society, people dont' kill each other, children generally know both parents, people respect others property etc etc.


however, I think each person should decide for themselves what religion suits them, I have a freind whos parents have hammered her with one of the more strict religions and she has basically not experienced what life has to offer becasue of it, in this instance religion has not led to a good outcome, this girl lives in fear of doing what she wants (if it means not being able to enter "the kingdom") and feels guilty for wanting to find out for her self whats out there. that is the ugly side of religion I think, what's the point of god creating us all if we're to behave like robots, we're born, we grow up, we reproduce and we die all by the rules in a book we might as well have not bothered...


Thanks for listening- I didn't intend to write so much

Cheers

Ben

[zenblader]

Originally Posted by bubba

in God and why?

I've always liked a quote attributed to Ghandi. When asked what his belief was, he responded "My life is my belief. How I live my life will show you what I believe." Pretty freakin' simple. If you really believe in Christ you will live a Christ-like life. It is way too easy for people to say I believe this or I believe that. I'm a Christian. I'm a buddhist. I'm a Muslim. I have met so many Christians that live life as though they don't even know who Christ was or what he taught. You'd have thought these "Christians" had never read the beatitudes.
Personally, I find zen buddhism to answer most of my needs and questions without the central concept of a specific, bearded god sitting on a throne and deciding what happens to who. It's actually remarkable how much Christ's teachings echo buddhism. Christian Science is basically buddhism by another name.
I was just today reading a couple chapters of Revelation. That John. Just goes to show how much people enjoyed licking toads or chomping silly shrooms even in the old days.

[ER]

Originally Posted by zenblader

I've always liked a quote attributed to Ghandi. When asked what his belief was, he responded "My life is my belief. How I live my life will show you what I believe." Pretty freakin' simple. If you really believe in Christ you will live a Christ-like life. It is way too easy for people to say I believe this or I believe that. I'm a Christian. I'm a buddhist. I'm a Muslim. I have met so many Christians that live life as though they don't even know who Christ was or what he taught. You'd have thought these "Christians" had never read the beatitudes.
Personally, I find zen buddhism to answer most of my needs and questions without the central concept of a specific, bearded god sitting on a throne and deciding what happens to who. It's actually remarkable how much Christ's teachings echo buddhism. Christian Science is basically buddhism by another name.
I was just today reading a couple chapters of Revelation. That John. Just goes to show how much people enjoyed licking toads or chomping silly shrooms even in the old days.

I have to admit that when I read your toad-licking comment, I busted out laughing. If you only studied Revelations, you probably would have a hard time believing that the Bible is the written Word of God. It is indeed the most supernatural and difficult Scripture to fully grasp. People said the same thing about the prophesies in the Old Testament until they were fulfilled.

You make a very good point in that sometimes the worst thing Christianity has going for it is the behavior of "Christians". While many people claim to be that, only God truly knows the condition of our hearts. The Bible itself warns us of this. You can't let the actions of humans dictate which religion to follow, since a case against any religion can be made by focusing only on their hypocrites and false-members. Furthermore, as humans we will all sin and fail! Rather than trying to find a religion that best fits you as a person, I would suggest searching for the truth. If the Bible really is the Word of God, then eternal salvation rests on faith in Christ, and those who choose not to accept that gift will spend eternity apart from God.

[zenblader]

Originally Posted by ER

I have to admit that when I read your toad-licking comment, I busted out laughing. If you only studied Revelations, you probably would have a hard time believing that the Bible is the written Word of God. It is indeed the most supernatural and difficult Scripture to fully grasp. People said the same thing about the prophesies in the Old Testament until they were fulfilled.

You make a very good point in that sometimes the worst thing Christianity has going for it is the behavior of "Christians". While many people claim to be that, only God truly knows the condition of our hearts. The Bible itself warns us of this. You can't let the actions of humans dictate which religion to follow, since a case against any religion can be made by focusing only on their hypocrites and false-members. Furthermore, as humans we will all sin and fail! Rather than trying to find a religion that best fits you as a person, I would suggest searching for the truth. If the Bible really is the Word of God, then eternal salvation rests on faith in Christ, and those who choose not to accept that gift will spend eternity apart from God.

Very thoughtful response, ER. However, at the heart of my problem with "organized" religion is its exclusivity. If you don't accept the gift you will spend eternity apart from God. See, I don't think any of us are apart from God right now or ever could be. God is everywhere. Christ's life was a referendum on the traditional (Pharisees) view of rules, laws and exclusion. God is all-inclusive and just not that picky about whether we accept a particular dogma, ie: eat this , don't eat this, go to church on Sat, go to church on Sun. It is the "exclusive" approach taken by the world's major religions that leads to war, bigotry and hatred. Christ was saying something very similar to what was said by Siddhartha Gautama (historic buddha). I believe that any inspired thinker (regardless of affiliation) will draw similar conclusions about life; that that inspiration comes from a universal God. And unfortunately, that the voice of God is drowned out in this world by bias, fear and by the propensity for humans to believe that "their" way is the "Truth".
"...Except you become as little children..." Unbiased and open to the voice that speaks to all of us if we will just shut up and listen.

[zenblader]

Originally Posted by ER

Rather than trying to find a religion that best fit