[Rios929]

Originally Posted by ER

I linked that in simply to demonstrate that there is an opposing point of view to Evolution and carbon-dating. Do a search in Google for "Creationism and C-14" and you should have plenty to read. As it's been said before - what is theory and is accepted as fact today might be proved wrong tomorrow.

Thanks for the discussion.

Those links are completely biased. Of course creationism.com is going to oppose carbon dating. Let's see an academic institution that has no reason to be biased oppose it....like harvard, or any university with reputable research programs.

I don't beleive in psychics....but i'm sure at psychics.com, they do believe in them.

[figment]

Originally Posted by zenblader

What these Christian vs nonChristian discussions all seem to run up against is whether the Bible should be taken literally word by word, chapter by chapter, or whether a person considers the Bible to contain some symbolism, some allegory. I personally don't take the Old Testament too seriously although I certainly appreciate David's prose and Solomon's wisdom. There are too many weird laws and nasty sorts. Even some of the old prophets were less than likable characters. The Gospels are a different story to say the least.
I truly believe in Christ's teachings and his life. I believe even more strongly because others in different societies and different parts of the planet have said many of the same things. However, the New testament is a third person account of Jesus' life. A third person account of Jesus words. I find it entirely consistent with human nature to skew a story or an account or interpret a word here and there to fit a particular agenda. How Jesus lived and died is his greatest testament and truth. He could have said I am the way, or he could have said "this" is the way. He could have said "no man comes to the Father but thru me", or he could have said "no man finds God unless he lives my life and walks in my shoes." It is soooo much human nature for a disciple or acolyte to want to deify every word and aspect of their roshi or teacher.
Based on the consideration of the brain God has given me, I see nothing inconsistent with celebrating and emulating Jesus life without locking myself into the third person interpretation of every word.
Because of this I have to agree with DRider. It just doesn't make sense that a wise and just God would make a specific faith a criteria for eternal salvation. Why give us the freedom of choice, then punish us if we don't make one specific choice. Sounds more like a game show than universal spirit or love.

The Bible is a very unique book. The Old Testament points to the New and vise versa. The "Law" described in the Old Testament was used by God to point out mans inability to obey it and his need for an ultimate Saviour. One who could pay the price once and for all mans sins. The New Testament portion of the Bible says:
Timothy 3:16"
All Scripture is God*breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, "

And Jesus Himself constantly refered to OT scripture.

[figment]

Originally Posted by Rios929

Those links are completely biased. Of course creationism.com is going to oppose carbon dating. Let's see an academic institution that has no reason to be biased oppose it....like harvard, or any university with reputable research programs.

I don't beleive in psychics....but i'm sure at psychics.com, they do believe in them.

source link
Here is a different source than the one I was going to provide you, but it has similar numbers. I find it interesting that you prercieve bias when you seem to be just as bias in your own views as the views you protest....we all need to take the time to investigate the reasons why we believe and why OTHERS believe the way that they do if we want to understand each other.


Quote:
"Francis Crick, the man who shared the Nobel Prize in 1962 with James Watson and Maurice Wilkins for their discovery of the molecular structure of DNA had this to say about probability factors and protein synthesis:
" To produce this miracle of molecular construction all the cell need do is to string together the amino acids (which make up the polypeptide chain) in the correct order. This is a complicated biochemical process, a molecular assembly line, using instructions in the form of a nucleic acid tape (the so-called messenger RNA). Here we need only ask, how many possible proteins are there? If a particular amino acid sequence was selected by chance, how rare of an event would that be?

This is an easy exercise in combinatorials. Suppose the chain is about two hundred amino acids long; this is , if anything, rather less than the average length of proteins of all types. Since we have just twenty possibilities at each place, the number of possibilities is twenty multiplied by itself some two hundred times. This is conveniently written 20 200, that is a one followed by 260 zeros!

This number is quite beyond our everyday comprehension. For comparison, consider the number of fundamental particles (atoms, speaking loosely) in the entire visible universe, not just in our own galaxy with its 1011 stars, but in all the billions of galaxies, out to the limits of observable space. This number, which is estimated to be 1080, is quite paltry by comparison to 10260. Moreover, we have only considered a polypeptide chain of a rather modest length. Had we considered longer ones as well, the figure would have been even more immense.(Life Itself, its origin and nature, Francis Crick, 1981, pp 51-52)

I should mention here that Crick is not a creationist, but his probability numbers for protein synthesis are similar to those of creation scientists.

In summation, Mathematics stand against an evolutionary origin of life. If you disagree you're welcome to send me the references or the data. In any case, the figures have hardly been "irrelevant." If you find it difficult to enter the zone using the 6 digit number generator, try contemplating Hoyle's 40,000 digit number generator. In fact, if your really dedicated, try writing the number out in its long form. That's the number 1 followed by 40,000 zeros!"

[Rios929]

Originally Posted by figment

I find it interesting that you prercieve bias when you seem to be just as bias in your own views as the views you protest.....

How am I biased, Just because I like one explanation over the other?

I would actually rather believe in god. If you think I wouldn't like to spend eternity with my family and loved ones, you would be mistaken. But at this point in my life, through in my opinion unbiased observations, I am leaning toward disbelief. I really have no reason to be biased.

The sources are biased because they are investigating something in which they already have a strong stance on....it's experimenter bias. An experimenter should never have expectations.


I still just can't grasp how you are discounting evolution with those numbers. I've always know that amino acid combinations are pretty much limitless. That's the only way we can have such diverse proteins. Proteins in our bodies are thosands of amino acids long. I'm very familiar with the findings of Watson and Crick. They discovered the structure of dna, but I just don't see how any of their findings oppose evolution. In fact their findings are a milestone in genetics and evolutionary science.

In fact a common theme in evolution, is variation through mutation. In DNA there are lots of random mutation events, that can dramatically change the expression of the affected genes, sometimes killing the organism, sometimes having no effect, and sometimes maybe helping in a small way. These mutations can be passed on to offspring, and if by chance they aid in the survival of the organism, they can be selected for. These mutations are commonly observed and are the reason for many genetic disorders.
Mutations are also the cause of cancer.

[ER]

Originally Posted by Rios929

Those links are completely biased. Of course creationism.com is going to oppose carbon dating. Let's see an academic institution that has no reason to be biased oppose it....like harvard, or any university with reputable research programs.

I don't beleive in psychics....but i'm sure at psychics.com, they do believe in them.

Again, I took 15 seconds on Google simply to show that there is an opposing point of view to Evolution. Do what I suggested to DRider - go to Google and do the search for yourself and enjoy the read. It looks like Figment provided some more information as well.

Many of you should apply the same lens of skepticism to Evolution and its theories as you do to Creationism. Christians get criticized for being close-minded, but the same can be said for those who believe what comes out of Harvard or any other University just because some doctor or graduate student said so. Evolution makes assumptions to cover gaps and close holes, and no one stops to think why? Do we want to try and deny God's existence that much?

To quote a white-board in my work neighbor's cube (which may or may not be legitimately quoted), "Unless you assume a God, the question of life's purpose becomes meaningless - Bernard Russell (atheist)".

[Rios929]

Originally Posted by ER

Again, I took 15 seconds on Google simply to show that there is an opposing point of view to Evolution. Do what I suggested to DRider - go to Google and do the search for yourself and enjoy the read. It looks like Figment provided some more information as well.

Many of you should apply the same lens of skepticism to Evolution and its theories as you do to Creationism. Christians get criticized for being close-minded, but the same can be said for those who believe what comes out of Harvard or any other University just because some doctor or graduate student said so. Evolution makes assumptions to cover gaps and close holes, and no one stops to think why? Do we want to try and deny God's existence that much?

To quote a white-board in my work neighbor's cube (which may or may not be legitimately quoted), "Unless you assume a God, the question of life's purpose becomes meaningless - Bernard Russell (atheist)".

The scientists and doctors at harvard report their data, no one is beleiving them just because they said so. I've taken a semester long course in evolution in which many relevant findings were scruitinized. Nobel prizes aren't just handed out.

What gaps and holes are covered by evolution?

[ER]

Originally Posted by Rios929

I would actually rather believe in god. If you think I wouldn't like to spend eternity with my family and loved ones, you would be mistaken. But at this point in my life, through in my opinion unbiased observations, I am leaning toward disbelief. I really have no reason to be biased.

If you want to believe in God, then what is stopping you? Do what I suggested to Zen - kneel down one night and, with as sincere of a heart as you can have, ask God to come into your life and show you what He has planned for you. We have to believe to see God, not see Him to believe. One of the biggest messages in His Word is faith.

Hebrews 11:6 -- And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Isn't that a powerful statement? You have to have faith in Him -- faith that He exists and that He will come into your life if you invite Him.

Revelations 3:20 -- "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me."

That's why I enjoy discussing this so much. He's right there, waiting for you to invite Him in and give your life to Him. Anyone who can hear that knock can have that relationship with Him. Faith is the key - you have to believe!

[Rios929]

Originally Posted by ER

If you want to believe in God, then what is stopping you? Do what I suggested to Zen - kneel down one night and, with as sincere of a heart as you can have, ask God to come into your life and show you what He has planned for you. We have to believe to see God, not see Him to believe. One of the biggest messages in His Word is faith.

You don't undertand. I did this for 19 years. I was raised catholic and went to catholic school till high school. I still go to church almost every sunday with my folks - in catholicism its a venial sin not to go every sunday.

The only form of christianity that I could ever take is catholicism because you are not required to take the bible literally. You don't actually have to believe that noah built an arch. You can assum symbolism.

But there are way too many inconsistancies in christianity to ignore. Too many convenient answers.

[ER]

Originally Posted by Rios929

You don't undertand. I did this for 19 years. I was raised catholic and went to catholic school till high school. I still go to church almost every sunday with my folks - in catholicism its a venial sin not to go every sunday.

I'm not Catholic and I not an expert on Catholocism. A friend of mine sitting next to me is, and if your church is anything like his, I would understand your current views on Christianity. The things that he tells me are taught and followed in his church have nothing to do with what the Bible says. I guess all I can say is that you can spend every day of your life in a church and still not be a Christian. A love-relationship with God is in your heart and no one can teach that to you. You study His Word and pray to Him daily and He will lead you through life. If you're attending a church that doesn't preach the Bible as God's Word, what makes it Christian? Some churches interpret the Bible differently than others, and this ok, provided they follow the core doctrines -- that Christ is God, that He died on the cross, and that He was resurrected on the third day. If a church tells you that you don't need the Bible, take off running.

The only form of christianity that I could ever take is catholicism because you are not required to take the bible literally. You don't actually have to believe that noah built an arch. You can assum symbolism. But there are way too many inconsistancies in christianity to ignore. Too many convenient answers.

People criticize the Bible for being written by men, but then they turn around and go to a church that is run by men telling them what to believe? If you can't verify it in the Bible, how do you know that what you're being taught is the truth? Again, there are many different interpretations out there, but if you find a church that follows the core essentials of the Bible, you should be ok. My church happens to take Revelations literally; others assume general, symbolic prophesy. Me personally, I haven't really formed an opinion yet.

The Bible is the single greatest historical account of the life and death of Christ. The gospels were written as early as 30-50 AD, and they (along with Acts) provide a bibliography of His life and teachings. There is a pretty solid case supporting the successful preservation of the original manuscripts all the way to the newest translations (such as the KJ or NIV version). What other documentation are we going to use to follow His teachings? What inconsistencies? What convenient answers?

Brother, it all comes down to the condition of your heart. If you seek the answers to the questions being raised in our debates, you need only ask Him. If you find yourself wondering, that probably means the Holy Spirit is working on you.

[DRider]

Originally Posted by ER

No offense taken. I think the problem that all of us have is that we try to grasp God's will through human eyes. We apply our own standards to Him and then try to determine how He should or shouldn't act, when it really is the other way around. To us, dooming souls to hell -- even those who lived good lives -- sounds wrong, incorrect, unfair, or whatever else we want to call it. But through His omnipotent and holy eyes, it is just. Consider the entire "story" to get a better understanding.

Christ gave up His place in the Trinity to come to Earth and die so that we could have life after death. The only thing we have to do is accept that free gift from Him. That's it. When you consider the sacrifice that was made for us, it might be a little easier to understand how God could judge all those who don't put their faith in Christ. Some people might be willing to die for someone they loved, but who would be willing to die for someone who didn't love them?

Thanks for the discussion.

ER, please excuse my editing of your quote; I'm not implying that the omitted text isn't good reading, just irrelevant.

My question was not clear in my previous statement, I was rambling too much upon reading it this morning so let me try it.

I’m not questioning the validity of Christianity as a whole, but rather I am curious as to how people of other denominations fit into your perception of “God’s will”. I’ve decided not to Google anything; I’m certain I’d find a whole spectrum of answers from all the internet idiots but to be honest all I care about those on this board (or at least who care to answer); after all, I’m asking a personal question not a theological one.

I’m reading a lot of quotes from the scriptures as responses. They are very elegant in their writing but quite vague in their message, they seem to be written in a very “you can interpret this anyway if you look at it hard enough” manner

Originally Posted by god

Hebrews 11:6 -- And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Revelations 3:20 -- "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me."

John 3:16 -- "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Translating these into 20th century straight talk I’m reading:

Believe in me boy or you gonna burn

Is this correct? Do you guys (ER, Fig, BDA, Booth, etc) feel that this is the message the bible projects? I have a very religious friend, he’s a member of the “Word of Life” church (I don’t know what sect it is, protestant maybe) he was telling me that the catholics and most of the Christians are all FUBAR, they're reading it all wrong and that heaven is not reserved for God boys. He quoted some verses but I can’t recall them anymore. Just wondering how you guys interpret it.

FWIW My grandmother, a devout Catholic, thinks I’m basically going to hell since I’m not Christian.

BTW: What does C-14 dating have to do with creationism? I don’t see why disproving the age of old bones is important to advancing the creationist agenda. C-14 doesn’t necessarily prove evolution. It merely provides a time-line into Earth’s history

Good discussion everyone.. very civil and well though out responses.

[Rios929]

Originally Posted by ER

What inconsistencies? What convenient answers?

example:
Why do bad things happen? Because god has mysterious ways.

Christianity teaches that god has a will for everyone. Your fait is not predetermined, but you can make choices to do what is good or what is bad. What about the people who don't get that chance. What about the kids born in third world countries that only live a couple of years before dieing of starvation or malnutrition. They didn't get a chance to choose whether or not to do god's will. What about the countless aborted fetuses....they didn't get a chance to do god's will. Why do some people get this chance while others don't. Convenient answer: God works in mysterious ways.

I'm guessing, the only reason you are not catholic is because you weren't born into a catholic family.

For example, Being a protestant, I'm assuming you don't believe that the bread and whine is actually the body and blood of christ, while catholics do. Why not?

[Rios929]

Originally Posted by DRider

BTW: What does C-14 dating have to do with creationism? I don’t see why disproving the age of old bones is important to advancing the creationist agenda. C-14 doesn’t necessarily prove evolution. It merely provides a time-line into Earth’s history

Many christians, who are in effect creationists, believe the earth to be only a few thosand years old.

[figment]

Originally Posted by Rios929

How am I biased, Just because I like one explanation over the other?

I would actually rather believe in god. If you think I wouldn't like to spend eternity with my family and loved ones, you would be mistaken. But at this point in my life, through in my opinion unbiased observations, I am leaning toward disbelief. I really have no reason to be biased.

The sources are biased because they are investigating something in which they already have a strong stance on....it's experimenter bias. An experimenter should never have expectations.


I still just can't grasp how you are discounting evolution with those numbers. I've always know that amino acid combinations are pretty much limitless. That's the only way we can have such diverse proteins. Proteins in our bodies are thosands of amino acids long. I'm very familiar with the findings of Watson and Crick. They discovered the structure of dna, but I just don't see how any of their findings oppose evolution. In fact their findings are a milestone in genetics and evolutionary science.

In fact a common theme in evolution, is variation through mutation. In DNA there are lots of random mutation events, that can dramatically change the expression of the affected genes, sometimes killing the organism, sometimes having no effect, and sometimes maybe helping in a small way. These mutations can be passed on to offspring, and if by chance they aid in the survival of the organism, they can be selected for. These mutations are commonly observed and are the reason for many genetic disorders.
Mutations are also the cause of cancer.

promotion by Mutation is completely unobserved. If you observe what really happens in nature, a mutation is never passed on. What is observed (for example) is breeds of dogs intermingle and go back to their original state.

My point about bias is that YOU ARE biased IMO so it looks "funny" to me that you point your finger at anyone else who has an opposed view. (Why even mention it?)

[figment]

Originally Posted by Rios929

Many christians, who are in effect creationists, believe the earth to be only a few thosand years old.

Many evolutionist have opposed views as well.

[Rios929]

Originally Posted by figment

Many evolutionist have opposed views as well.

I'm not sure which views I mentioned were opposed? I was just saying that many christians/creationists believe the earth to be only a few thousand years old. This doesn't oppose any of their other views...

[Rios929]

Originally Posted by figment

a mutation is never passed on.

That's simply not true. For example: If you have a mutation in which a codon is deleted from a chromosome in one of your gametes. This mutation will be passed on to your offspring.

Also some people are more predetermined to some types of mutations. That's why, for example, breast cancer is hereditary.

[figment]

Originally Posted by Rios929

example:
Why do bad things happen? Because god has mysterious ways.

Christianity teaches that god has a will for everyone. Your fait is not predetermined, but you can make choices to do what is good or what is bad. What about the people who don't get that chance. What about the kids born in third world countries that only live a couple of years before dieing of starvation or malnutrition. They didn't get a chance to choose whether or not to do god's will. What about the countless aborted fetuses....they didn't get a chance to do god's will. Why do some people get this chance while others don't. Convenient answer: God works in mysterious ways.

I'm guessing, the only reason you are not catholic is because you weren't born into a catholic family.

For example, Being a protestant, I'm assuming you don't believe that the bread and whine is actually the body and blood of christ, while catholics do. Why not?

God HAS a plan for everyone. He is not the creator of destruction. What point is there in creation for it just to be destroyed? God exists outside of time in the eternal ever-present. Because of this, His perspective and control allow Him to know everything at once even though things appear to us to be out of control. Bad things happen to good or inocent people because of free will. Even though our sense of justice can sometimes be pricked by these events, that does not mean He is not a caring and loving God. In order for a person to reject God, they have to be inttroduced to Him. The Bible says that all of creation testifies to Him and so they are without excuse. This is directed at people who are able to know (sin) the difference between good and evil.

Romans 1:20
"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. "

[ER]

Originally Posted by DRider

ER, please excuse my editing of your quote; I'm not implying that the omitted text isn't good reading, just irrelevant.

My question was not clear in my previous statement, I was rambling too much upon reading it this morning so let me try it.

I’m not questioning the validity of Christianity as a whole, but rather I am curious as to how people of other denominations fit into your perception of “God’s will”. I’ve decided not to Google anything; I’m certain I’d find a whole spectrum of answers from all the internet idiots but to be honest all I care about those on this board (or at least who care to answer); after all, I’m asking a personal question not a theological one.

A common thing you'll hear in our church is this: you're not going to find Baptists, Catholics, Lutherans, etc. in Heaven. Rather, you'll find Christians. My wife and I belong to a Baptist church, but we believe that was by His guidance. I didn't care what denomination my church was, I just wanted to find a Bible-believing church that was serious about following God's Word.

I’m reading a lot of quotes from the scriptures as responses. They are very elegant in their writing but quite vague in their message, they seem to be written in a very “you can interpret this anyway if you look at it hard enough” manner...Translating these into 20th century straight talk I’m reading: Believe in me boy or you gonna burn

Ha ha! Sorry...IMHO the message is a little different than that. A better way to word it might be, "I love you so much that I've sacrificied my Son for you. His death and resurrection provide you with the perfect bridge to overcome the gap of sin. All you have to do is accept that free gift and cross the bridge." It's a choice (that is debated between Armenians and Calvinists, but that's another discussion) you make in life, and as you know, there are consequenes in making the wrong ones.

I have a very religious friend, he’s a member of the “Word of Life” church (I don’t know what sect it is, protestant maybe) he was telling me that the catholics and most of the Christians are all FUBAR, they're reading it all wrong and that heaven is not reserved for God boys. He quoted some verses but I can’t recall them anymore. Just wondering how you guys interpret it.

Well, I'm not going to bash any particular denomination here. Again, salvation is a free gift as the Bible teaches us. It's something you accept by inviting Christ into your life as your savior. You can find whatever you're looking for in a church, which just goes to support the concept that the condition of your heart determines whether or not you're truly a believer. There are going to be good and bad churches in all sorts of flavors and denominations.

BTW: What does C-14 dating have to do with creationism? I don’t see why disproving the age of old bones is important to advancing the creationist agenda. C-14 doesn’t necessarily prove evolution. It merely provides a time-line into Earth’s history

Good discussion everyone.. very civil and well though out responses.

Evolutionists use it to claim that the Earth is millions of years old. Most Creationists believe the Earth to be about 10,000 years or so old. I'm not an expert in either field.

[DRider]

Originally Posted by Rios929

Many christians, who are in effect creationists, believe the earth to be only a few thosand years old.

You're kidding me right? Does anyone here actually beieve that? Why couldn't god made eveything 3.8 Gya? I don't see how that effects their agrumet.

[figment]

Originally Posted by Rios929

I'm not sure which views I mentioned were opposed? I was just saying that many christians/creationists believe the earth to be only a few thousand years old. This doesn't oppose any of their other views...

not true. I'm an Evangelical (Bible believing) Christian and I believe that creation could be as old as 17 billion years. There are many who share this view.

[Rios929]

Originally Posted by figment

God HAS a plan for everyone.

So god has a plan for the aborted fetuses and kids in third world countries that die of malnutrition before they even had a chance to live?


Saying that we can't understand god's ways is just another convenient answer.

[figment]

Originally Posted by Rios929

That's simply not true. For example: If you have a mutation in which a codon is deleted from a chromosome in one of your gametes. This mutation will be passed on to your offspring.

Also some people are more predetermined to some types of mutations. That's why, for example, breast cancer is hereditary.

cancer is not a promotion of the species.