[Custom900]

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

If they reveal their faith for public debate they should expect it to be debated.

Exactly - that goes for me, you, the Budda's of the world, God, Athiests and anything esle you might be able to think of. Debate is a great tool for education. It makes us think and challenges the opponent. Of course, it all has to be done in a friendly manner, otherwise it's considered an argument.

[Custom900]

Originally Posted by oldfogey

Some prefer to rejoice that humanity is advancing faster today than it ever has.

I rejoice with you in a technologically advancing world. In fact, I challenge everyone to open their minds and learn. We would not be where we are today if it were not for technology. I don't know about you, but I could care less about travelling in a horse and buggy. I like my air conditioning, heaters, and television. If it were not for technology this debate would not be happening online among people around the world.

[Custom900]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

Using faith as proof that God, Jesus, or Allah exist, or telling someone else they don't believe because of faith, or that the Bible is proof that something happened, will get you lambasted.

Saying you have faith, and especially if you say that faith does not equate proof, will not net you criticism, I think as the response to deftones' post has shown.

It takes a certain amount of faith to say that there is no God. Because of the multidirectional claims that Science assumes, you have to have faith in order to hold to Darwin's theories or any other Scientific theory out there. A Theory is not fact, it cannot be proven, and in many instances goes through a continuous evolution to try and prove itself - sometimes at the cost of contradiction and a very big imagination.

[deftones156]

Originally Posted by nedro

Can ya help me out a bit here? What evidence supports the idea that god exhists? And please, no theories or double talk. Thank you.

Sorry, but I am giving you a theory. This is from a lecture by Stephen Hawking. This general theory can also be found in A Brief History Of Time.

"In the case of the universe, the fact that the microwave background has such an exactly thermal spectrum indicates that it must have been scattered many times. The universe must therefore contain enough matter, to make it opaque in every direction we look, because the microwave background is the same, in every direction we look. Moreover, this opacity must occur a long way away from us, because we can see galaxies and quasars, at great distances. Thus there must be a lot of matter at a great distance from us. The greatest opacity over a broad wave band, for a given density, comes from ionised hydrogen. It then follows that if there is enough matter to make the universe opaque, there is also enough matter to focus our past light cone. One can then apply the theorem of Penrose and myself, to show that time must have a beginning.

Many people hoped that quantum effects, would somehow smooth out the singularity of infinite density, and allow the universe to bounce, and continue back to a previous contracting phase. This would be rather like the earlier idea of galaxies missing each other, but the bounce would occur at a much higher density. However, I think that this is not what happens: quantum effects do not remove the singularity, and allow time to be continued back indefinitely. But it seems that quantum effects can remove the most objectionable feature, of singularities in classical General Relativity. This is that the classical theory, does not enable one to calculate what would come out of a singularity, because all the Laws of Physics would break down there. This would mean that science could not predict how the universe would have begun. Instead, one would have to appeal to an agency outside the universe. This may be why many religious leaders, were ready to accept the Big Bang, and the singularity theorems."

Obviously I omitted a lot, but Hawking goes on to talk about the newer theory of Imaginary Time. That is, as he states, a hypothesis since the universe before real time (ie Imaginary Time) would be based on a supposition.
My point is, right now science is able to trace the existence of the universe back to an infintesmally small point in time, but it cannot show us when the universe was created. This gives evidence that an "agency outside of the universe" may have been at work.

[phobiaphobe]

Originally Posted by Custom900

It takes a certain amount of faith to say that there is no God.

Does it take faith to say that there are no goblins? Unicorns?

Originally Posted by Custom900

Because of the multidirectional claims that Science assumes, you have to have faith in order to hold to Darwin's theories or any other Scientific theory out there.

"Natural selection" and "survival of the fittest" Are immediately obvious and easy to prove without any measure of faith.

Originally Posted by Custom900

A Theory is not fact, it cannot be proven, and in many instances goes through a continuous evolution to try and prove itself - sometimes at the cost of contradiction and a very big imagination.

A theory can be tested. Imagination is not part of the process. And with enough evidence, theories can be proven.

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by Custom900

It takes a certain amount of faith to say that there is no God.

I would agree kinda, although I think most people don't realize that by saying there is no God they're placing faith in that.

As I've said multiple times, I don't have faith in either "side".

I have a reasoned apathy to it all. If there is a God and a heaven, I know I'm going there. If there isn't, that's OK too.

Neither outcome will change how I live my life here on earth.

I do have antipathy to organized religion though. I think there's a nice example of why playing out in current events. We have Muslims and Christians ostensibly killing and dying over a stupid cartoon.

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

That's not criticism.

There are a lot of ways to ask a question, and that one is clearly a thinly veiled bear trap.

[chkaotic]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

I would agree kinda, although I think most people don't realize that by saying there is no God they're placing faith in that.

As I've said multiple times, I don't have faith in either "side".

I have a reasoned apathy to it all. If there is a God and a heaven, I know I'm going there. If there isn't, that's OK too.

Neither outcome will change how I live my life here on earth.

I do have antipathy to organized religion though. I think there's a nice example of why playing out in current events. We have Muslims and Christians ostensibly killing and dying over a stupid cartoon.

Holy crap.. i never thought i'd say this in a religion thread on an internet forum... but i literally "totally" agree..

do i believe there is a god? no.. why? because i have no reason to. could i be wrong? sure, just as easily as i could be right, so why bother debating.

that said, i dont have much love for "organized" religion, ynow.. if you believe in something, believe in it.. why does it have to be "organized".. why should there be "rules" as to 'how' you have to believe in it, and 'how' you have to act to call yourself a "believer"..

then there are the fanatics, such as the muslim extremists, and good 'ol boy fred phelps.. sometimes i wish they would reinstate the lynch mob.. but i digress.. ok i gotta stay away from the religious threads now

[john954rr]

Originally Posted by chkaotic

Holy crap.. i never thought i'd say this in a religion thread on an internet forum... but i literally "totally" agree..

do i believe there is a god? no.. why? because i have no reason to. could i be wrong? sure, just as easily as i could be right, so why bother debating.

that said, i dont have much love for "organized" religion, ynow.. if you believe in something, believe in it.. why does it have to be "organized".. why should there be "rules" as to 'how' you have to believe in it, and 'how' you have to act to call yourself a "believer"..

then there are the fanatics, such as the muslim extremists, and good 'ol boy fred phelps.. sometimes i wish they would reinstate the lynch mob.. but i digress.. ok i gotta stay away from the religious threads now

Please do not confuse the church with religion. The church is nothing but an instrument of man, developed to control people, create power and wealth, and is as much an agent of collective barganing as anything. And, there is no limit as to how it will use its power to sustain itself. Consider the inquisition for instance. That people kill and torture in the name of religion has to be one of the greatest contradictions of all time, but one that is oh too common.

[Scout]

Originally Posted by chkaotic

do i believe there is a god? no.. why? because i have no reason to. could i be wrong? sure, just as easily as i could be right, so why bother debating.

If you are undecided on an issue, and it MAY have eternal importance to you, then why not debate it. If there isn't a God, then so what, you learned and decided against believing in God, and some day you die, and are worm food and cease all existance. Or, if there is a God, and you decide not to believe, and some day you die, and instead of ceasing to exist, you burn in eternal flame, writhing in your own burning flesh, forever. Hmm, it would make me want to look into it.

Originally Posted by chkaotic

that said, i dont have much love for "organized" religion, ynow.. if you believe in something, believe in it.. why does it have to be "organized".. why should there be "rules" as to 'how' you have to believe in it, and 'how' you have to act to call yourself a "believer"..

I don't have any need for organized religion. I'm a Christian (imagine that). The only rule I needed to know about was how to gain acceptance into heaven, through Jesus Christ. I don't ACT anyway, and my "behavior patterns" aren't different from anyone elses. Nor do I project myself, or disillusion myself by thinking or behaving "holier than thou" or "better than you." I'm not, and that's not a Christian way to act, and I'll bitch slap any Christian that acts that way (verbally at least). But, yeah, I believe...

Originally Posted by chkaotic

then there are the fanatics, such as the muslim extremists, and good 'ol boy fred phelps.. sometimes i wish they would reinstate the lynch mob.. but i digress.. ok i gotta stay away from the religious threads now

Yeah, somebody threw the muslim fundamentalists up earlier, and then proceeded to say the muslims and christians are killing each other over it. I haven't seen any Christians killing Muslims over Cartoon Muhammed. Did I miss something? I heard the muslims were rioting, but killing Christians?

[phobiaphobe]

Originally Posted by Scout

If you are undecided on an issue, and it MAY have eternal importance to you, then why not debate it. If there isn't a God, then so what, you learned and decided against believing in God, and some day you die, and are worm food and cease all existance. Or, if there is a God, and you decide not to believe, and some day you die, and instead of ceasing to exist, you burn in eternal flame, writhing in your own burning flesh, forever. Hmm, it would make me want to look into it.

I'm to be scared of writhing in my own burning flesh because someone wrote that in a book? I should be scared into believing in God? That's fvcked up.

Originally Posted by Scout

Yeah, somebody threw the muslim fundamentalists up earlier, and then proceeded to say the muslims and christians are killing each other over it. I haven't seen any Christians killing Muslims over Cartoon Muhammed. Did I miss something? I heard the muslims were rioting, but killing Christians?

In Nigeria, apparently yes.

[Scout]

Does it take faith to say that there are no goblins? Unicorns?

There is not one of the oldest books in existence supporting the claim there are, and millions of believers over centuries of time. But hey, if you like your little Dungeons and Dragons references, then okay. I'm a 10th level Druid Elf, and I banish you from this conversation.


"Natural selection" and "survival of the fittest" Are immediately obvious and easy to prove without any measure of faith.

Reeeeaaalllllllllyyy? Okay, Mr. Food Chain, how do you figure. Prove it.

A theory can be tested. Imagination is not part of the process. And with enough evidence, theories can be proven.

Imagination, arguably creates Hypothesis, which in turn becomes Theory through testing. Theories can be proven true or false.
"An extremely well-substantiated explanation of some aspects of the natural world that incorporates facts, laws, predictions, and tested hypotheses."


Phobe, part of this discussion is debate, not one sentence answers about Unicorns or such. You're better than that. If you disagree, and see no reason for debate, then take your command of the Canadian language and be gone.

[Scout]

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

I'm to be scared of writhing in my own burning flesh because someone wrote that in a book? I should be scared into believing in God? That's fvcked up.



In Nigeria, apparently yes.

Phobe, look, if you're not scared of that then don't be. I'm not trying to scare you. If the best you want to be is worm food, so be it.
And, no, it's fvcked up that people actually burn in Hell. Not my fault, so don't put it on me. Your choice. Your decision. You live with it. I'm not here to convert. I will defend my position, with an open mind, and learn from others who don't necessarily agree with me.

[Custom900]

Originally Posted by john954rr

Please do not confuse the church with religion. The church is nothing but an instrument of man, developed to control people, create power and wealth, and is as much an agent of collective barganing as anything. And, there is no limit as to how it will use its power to sustain itself. Consider the inquisition for instance. That people kill and torture in the name of religion has to be one of the greatest contradictions of all time, but one that is oh too common.

You have absolutely no clue about what you're talking about. You are stating nothing more than an opinion you most likely recieved from the opinions of others.

Do some research and then tell me where the Church came from and what the Church is about.

Have there been selfish, stupid, irrational, ignorant people within the Church's history? Yes, and that has left a mark on the Christian faith, but what you are saying is that the Church was designed for selfish reasons. You my friend are wrong.

[phobiaphobe]

Originally Posted by Scout

There is not one of the oldest books in existence supporting the claim there are, and millions of believers over centuries of time. But hey, if you like your little Dungeons and Dragons references, then okay. I'm a 10th level Druid Elf, and I banish you from this conversation.

Reeeeaaalllllllllyyy? Okay, Mr. Food Chain, how do you figure. Prove it.

A theory can be tested. Imagination is not part of the process. And with enough evidence, theories can be proven.

Imagination, arguably creates Hypothesis, which in turn becomes Theory through testing. Theories can be proven true or false.
"An extremely well-substantiated explanation of some aspects of the natural world that incorporates facts, laws, predictions, and tested hypotheses."


Phobe, part of this discussion is debate, not one sentence answers about Unicorns or such. You're better than that. If you disagree, and see no reason for debate, then take your command of the Canadian language and be gone.

You got me on the 'imagination' bit. I didn't mean that imagination is absent in hypothesis, I meant that you don't test a hypothesis using your imagination. I guess it came out wrong.

WHen did you all of a sudden get so confrontational? I'm not offended that you insist I'm going to burn for all eternity. In fact I think it's hilarious. I'm not attacking you, no need to make it personal.

Ok, I have concrete proof of natural selection. You're gonna love this. Which one would you 'select' to mate with and spread your genetic material:

Door Number 1

Door Number 2

Survival of the fittest... you disagree with this theory?

Read me.

[MetallicCarrot]

Door number two is proof enough that god DOES exist...

[Scout]

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

WHen did you all of a sudden get so confrontational? I'm not offended that you insist I'm going to burn for all eternity. In fact I think it's hilarious. I'm not attacking you, no need to make it personal.

Phobe, I'm not attacking you personally, I'm being sarcastic.

I never inisisted you were going to burn in Hell for all eternity (you are, you know ).


The Hell statement is used as a "Hello, pay attention, this might be an important issue to some" for shock value, though it doesn't lessen it's effect, and I'm glad you can find the humor in it. But, it's really not a humorous subject.

What I was saying, it is a logical step to debate the existence and nature of God, if not at least for the "what if" factor. That, I believe, is the intended use for this forum.

Not a flame fest of statements, and you know what I'm saying here. To compare faith in God to the belief of Goblins and Unicorns is trying. Though non-believers may find it funny, it is especially insulting of a persons intelligence.


As for your Darwins Finch's, what if they were just born that way, so to best use their God given talents, some with thin beaks ate insects out of holes, those with large beaks ate berries, etc? We'll call this my Flock Darwins Finch's theory.

In Flock Darwins Finches, Rosie being utterly disgusting in comparison to Jessica Alba, is the reason Rosie isn't walking around in a bikini and Jessica is (thank God).

If Darwin was right, most women should look like Jessica Alba.

[phobiaphobe]

The unicorns thing wasn't a joke. Sorry if it seemed rude, but my point was that you can't prove that God exists any easier than I can prove unicorns exist. Your argument of "one of the oldest books, millions of supporters over centuries of time" makes more of a case for Islam than anything else BTW. And yet you will argue that Islam (or any faith other than yours) is not the "correct" one.

This thread was started by someone who stated that he could prove God is the creator, and yet none of His supporters have offered anything resembling evidence or proof. Why do I need to consider hell to debate the existence of God? I don't use intimidation in debate.

Originally Posted by Scout

If Darwin was right, most women should look like Jessica Alba.

Darwin was right. Jessica Alba has a better chance of finding a mate and spreading her DNA. Evolution doesn't happen overnight. Why do you suppose that the average height of 1st world humans has steadily increased over the centuries? Why do you suppose we have structures resembling gills when we're embryos? Darwin's Finches were born the way they were because the traits that made their predecessors successful were passed on to them.

This could go on a while.

[jaim]

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

Darwin was right. Jessica Alba has a better chance of finding a mate and spreading her DNA. Evolution doesn't happen overnight. Why do you suppose that the average height of 1st world humans has steadily increased over the centuries? Why do you suppose we have structures resembling gills when we're embryos? Darwin's Finches were born the way they were because the traits that made their predecessors successful were passed on to them.

This could go on a while.

One correction. Evolution does and has happened overnight. Viruses mutate quite rapidly to adapt to what ever host they are in. But otherwise your argument was good.

[Kuss929]

Originally Posted by jaim

One correction. Evolution does and has happened overnight. Viruses mutate quite rapidly to adapt to what ever host they are in. But otherwise your argument was good.

Their adaptation is only because they are the smallest from of life. (If you even consider them a form of life) A single amino acid swap for a virus would be comperable to a human growing a third eye in the back of his head.

Microorganisms are a perfect stage to watch evolution since entire generations can be watched and monitored in a very short time.
Doing the same for any multi-cell organism would be impossible.

My religion is science. And if my religion eventually points to an act from a god. So be it. But it will not be in my life time.