Deism

figment · 07-13-2004, 12:09 PM

http://www.deism.com/deism_defined.htm

ER · 07-13-2004, 1:39 PM

I'd classify myself as a deist before I put my faith in Christ. At first glance, it makes a lot of sense. You see the world around you, you believe that someone or something had to have created it, and you conclude that there is a God. The questions for which I never found answers were, "Why am I here?" and "What's the meaning of my life?".

Deists can make some of the strongest arguments against any particular religion because their beliefs are so encompassing. But in order to accept deism I think you have to have a strong belief that the existing holy books are incomplete or false in order to do so. Because, if the Bible is the Word then Deists are on the wrong track. Same would be said for the Koran.

figment · 07-13-2004, 3:57 PM

I think a lot of people could classify themselves by this. It seems to be very similar to "agnostic" but also having a notion of a supreme being.

Rios929 · 07-13-2004, 5:15 PM

[quote=ER].....At first glance, it makes a lot of sense. You see the world around you, you believe that someone or something had to have created it, and you conclude that there is a God....[quote]

To me this logic is flawed. If something or someone had to have created it, wouldn't something or someone had to have created the creator?....and on and on

ER · 07-13-2004, 6:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rios929

To me this logic is flawed. If something or someone had to have created it, wouldn't something or someone had to have created the creator?....and on and on

Going by the deist's theme of logic and reason, you could conclude that what we see around us was created, since (IMHO) it takes much more faith to believe that everything was an accident. Even many of those who believe in Evolution believe in what's known as Theistic Evolution, where God created the universe initially and then set it into motion to evolve into what we have today. Since you can't see and observe God directly, you can't necessarily gather enough information to make a reasonable claim that He was or was not created by something else.

zenblader · 07-13-2004, 8:59 PM

[quote=Rios929][quote=ER].....At first glance, it makes a lot of sense. You see the world around you, you believe that someone or something had to have created it, and you conclude that there is a God....

Quote:

To me this logic is flawed. If something or someone had to have created it, wouldn't something or someone had to have created the creator?....and on and on

I don't have a problem with the notion that we may have been created by a force or entity that itself was created by another. Actually it's pretty well accepted that matter's complex atoms and molecules were created in the fiery collisions and deaths of young stars. So, early peoples that worshipped the sun may have been halfway there. What created the stars? Is God found in matter in the first place? In any event, if you believe that humans are not perfect, than it is logical to assume that the human opinion on God will never be quite correct. Therefore, arguing about it-- especially fighting wars about it-- seems pretty stupid.

ER · 07-14-2004, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zenblader

I don't have a problem with the notion that we may have been created by a force or entity that itself was created by another. Actually it's pretty well accepted that matter's complex atoms and molecules were created in the fiery collisions and deaths of young stars. So, early peoples that worshipped the sun may have been halfway there. What created the stars? Is God found in matter in the first place? In any event, if you believe that humans are not perfect, than it is logical to assume that the human opinion on God will never be quite correct. Therefore, arguing about it-- especially fighting wars about it-- seems pretty stupid.

Well for that matter, our understanding of much of the complexities of what we experience around us is going to be incorrect, since it's over our heads. My point was simply to say that, from a deist's point of view, the notion of accepting that there is a God would be easy to do, since all one needs to do is take a look around to realize that we live in an extraordinary universe that has the markings of an artistic creator to it.

And, since I have yet to see anyone firmly identify God in His entire existence, we probably can't say whether or not He was created.

-----

FYI - Deist's are taking a stand the same way Muslims and Christians are. In believing that God hasn't revealed Himself through any prophetic means...

Deism teaches there is a God. Deism rejects the "revelations" of the "revealed" religions but does not reject God.

...they're saying that Christ wasn't God, Mohammed wasn't a prophet, and the Bible and the Koran aren't genuine. They're claiming to have the only true concept of God through reason and nature. Really, it sounds a lot like "Christian" Scientology to me:

Scientology is a new religion, one which has isolated fundamental laws of life and, for the first time, developed a workable technology that can be applied to help one achieve a happier and more spiritual existence.

It's still interesting to note that, aside from Christianity, ALL other religions emphasize human works, studies, abilities, or anything else that puts the acheiving of the object of their religion into their own hands. In other words, their actions determine whether or not they find their God.

Rios929 · 07-14-2004, 12:25 PM

I hate the term "scientology".....what a misnomer.

figment · 07-14-2004, 2:03 PM

[quote=Rios929]....At first glance, it makes a lot of sense. You see the world around you, you believe that someone or something had to have created it, and you conclude that there is a God....

Quote:

To me this logic is flawed. If something or someone had to have created it, wouldn't something or someone had to have created the creator?....and on and on

If everything needs a creator, then who or what created God?

Rios929 · 07-14-2004, 2:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by figment

If everything needs a creator, then who or what created God?

Sorry, but that link doesn't answer anything. It just offers a simple one sentence answer to an almost incomprehensable concept. It doesn't tell me anything I didn't already know. It basically says that God can't be defined in terms of space, time, or matter. I've heard this answer many times, and, to me, it just seems like a convenient way to get out of the question.

figment · 07-14-2004, 3:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rios929

Sorry, but that link doesn't answer anything. It just offers a simple one sentence answer to an almost incomprehensable concept. It doesn't tell me anything I didn't already know. It basically says that God can't be defined in terms of space, time, or matter. I've heard this answer many times, and, to me, it just seems like a convenient way to get out of the question.

Sounded pretty reasonable to me. Care to explain the fallacy of it?

Quote:

"But who created God?" But the answer is that by definition He is not created; He is eternal. He is the One who brought time, space, and matter into existence. Since the concept of causality deals with space, time, and matter, and since God is one who brought space, time, and matter into existence, the concept of causality does not apply to God since it is something related to the reality of space, time, and matter. Since God is before space, time, and matter, the issue of causality does not apply to Him.--http://www.carm.org/questions/God_created.htm

ER · 07-14-2004, 3:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rios929

Sorry, but that link doesn't answer anything. It just offers a simple one sentence answer to an almost incomprehensable concept. It doesn't tell me anything I didn't already know. It basically says that God can't be defined in terms of space, time, or matter. I've heard this answer many times, and, to me, it just seems like a convenient way to get out of the question.

Doesn't the Big Bang offer the same claim for its creation?

13.7 billion years ago, the entirety of our universe was compressed into the confines of an atomic nucleus. Known as a singularity, this is the moment before creation when space and time did not exist. According to the prevailing cosmological models that explain our universe, an ineffable explosion, trillions of degrees in temperature on any measurement scale, that was infinitely dense, created not only fundamental subatomic particles and thus matter and energy but space and time itself. Cosmology theorists combined with the observations of their astronomy colleagues have been able to reconstruct the primordial chronology of events known as the big bang.

Would this also be a convenient way to avoid answering the question, "What created the singularity that became the Big Bang"?

EDIT: Sorry...my point was that it takes an extraordinary amount of faith to believe that the Big Bang and Evolution are the cause for what we see today. Christians believe that before time, space, and anything else, there was just God. Evolutionists believe that it was just the singularity that became the Big Bang.

figment · 07-14-2004, 4:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ER

Christians believe that before time, space, and anything else, there was just God. Evolutionists believe that it was just the singularity that became the Big Bang.

before is an interesting word.

He has always been and always will be. In an enternal "now" the notion of time is (could be) like a parade that has a begining and an ending with the Person in "now" observing it visiting it, but not constrained to it.

ER · 07-14-2004, 4:51 PM

John 8:56-59 -- Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."

"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"

"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

I sometimes use the analogy of watching a DVD to describe the concept of God transcending time. He would be the one watching and we would the actors in the film. In that scenario, He can fast-forward, skip ahead, rewind, etc., and He is constant and present everywhere. We as actors in the movie as our universe move along the 4th dimension of time, growing older and living as the movie goes on.

Rios929 · 07-14-2004, 6:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by figment

Sounded pretty reasonable to me. Care to explain the fallacy of it?

I didn't say there was a fallacy in it. It may be true. But, am I expected to take it as truth without any explanation? Just like that?

Rios929 · 07-14-2004, 6:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ER

Evolutionists believe that it was just the singularity that became the Big Bang.

The theory of evolution has nothing to do with the big bang....

ER · 07-14-2004, 7:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rios929

The theory of evolution has nothing to do with the big bang....

Not directly, no, but don't athiestic Evolutionists look to the Big Bang as the creation of the Universe?

Rios929 · 07-14-2004, 8:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ER

Not directly, no, but don't athiestic Evolutionists look to the Big Bang as the creation of the Universe?

Couldn't tell you...

I'm sure some evolutionists think the big bang theory is true and some don't. Just like some christians do and some don't.

Certainly, belief in the big bang theory and Christian creation beliefs don't have to be mutually exclusive.

I guess, I just don't see how evolution of organisms has much to do with how the universe came to be.

figment · 07-15-2004, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rios929

..., am I expected to take it as truth without any explanation? Just like that?

NO. Its a reasonable explaination, no one can say they have all the answers. To say that would imply more about the author of the statement than anything else.

Because no one was there except God when creation happened, we only have what revelation is recorded about it to try to figure things out (if you belive in God and the biblical creation story).

If you acept "things" as reasonable and a plausable theory, thats fine. Otherwise, we could discuss what is not reasonable about them and persue that. If its not reasonable to believe this explaination, why is that? Because we have heard it before? We have seen the sun rise many times too. So we believe it will rise tomorrow.

We have never seen God, but I believe He has made sure we know about Him and He has given us what we need to know Him. I dont understand everything about God, but I hope I never stop learning until the day that learning has no more meaning...

Rios929 · 07-15-2004, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by figment

If its not reasonable to believe this explaination, why is that? Because we have heard it before? We have seen the sun rise many times too. So we believe it will rise tomorrow.

I don't think the explaination is unreasonable, but I do think it's unreasonable to accept it as absolute fact.

We have seen the sun rise many times, but that is definately not the only reason we believe it will rise tomorrow.

gr0undz3r0 · 07-15-2004, 2:48 PM

CARM is a great site. There are good questions and answers on there. The logic is nto flawed in respect to the creation of God. Only things that came into exsistence need to be created. God Always exsisted thus no need ofr creation. The Logic is perfect. As far as Jesus - he is my Lord and saviour. The Bible is the word of God. These are facts to me, afrter 26 years as an Athiest, Diest, Agnostic. Seek Truth and you will find God, The only God - The God of the Bible. Blesisng to you all...

figment · 07-15-2004, 3:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rios929

I don't think the explaination is unreasonable, but I do think it's unreasonable to accept it as absolute fact.

Thats a matter of personal choice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rios929

We have seen the sun rise many times, but that is definately not the only reason we believe it will rise tomorrow.

agreed. My point was repitition does not invalidate.

Rios929 · 07-15-2004, 3:59 PM

If God is outside of time, and can see what we concieve as our past and futures, then we are predetermined to live our lives a certain way. How can God be outside of time without predetermination?

figment · 07-15-2004, 4:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rios929

If God is outside of time, and can see what we concieve as our past and futures, then we are predetermined to live our lives a certain way. How can God be outside of time without predetermination?

If God is all knowing and he knows our future, then how is that free will?
Look here also

ER · 07-15-2004, 5:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rios929

If God is outside of time, and can see what we concieve as our past and futures, then we are predetermined to live our lives a certain way. How can God be outside of time without predetermination?

I don't want to take away from your discussion, but you've brought up what is an interesting debate amongst Christians. There are those who believe that there is no such thing as choice, and that everything is already determined. Whether or not you choose to eat at Burger King or McDonalds is never really a choice to you, because you'll end up doing exactly what God wants you to do as a minute part of His overall plan. According to them, Christ died only for those who were chosen to be saved. There are others (like me) who believe that, although God is all-knowing and His existence is independent of time, He still allows us to make choices in life, be them good or bad. To them, Christ died for all of man-kind and those who choose to accept Him will be saved.

Regardless, what we are trying to do in debating God's existence is attempting to grasp and fully understand an omniscient, omni-present, and all powerful God and His plan with a limited, human mind. It's going to be impossible to do. We'll never be able to do it, which is why (IMHO) we needed His written Word.

Rios929 · 07-15-2004, 5:47 PM

So God made us without the ability to understand Him, but with the ability to go against His will?

...
In the bible it says that God created everything in seven days. God is outside of time, so "seven days" must be the time period that a human would have percieved to elapse if he were watching God create the universe? If God is outside of time, why would a measure of time even be used in the bible to describe the creation, for which only God was present? If "seven days" is supposed to be symbolism that actually stands for "billions of years", why didn't whoever wrote the bible just write "billions of years"?

ER · 07-15-2004, 6:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rios929

So God made us without the ability to understand Him, but with the ability to go against His will?

God made us in His image, as Genesis tells us, but we're not Him. We're human. We have the ability to understand His will for us, His love for us, and a lot of other things about Him, but to fully understand the magnitude of God entirely would mean that, well....we were God too. He gave us a free-will, which is the ability to choose to do as we desire, be that good or bad. He did the same with His angels, from what the Bible tells us, which allowed Lucifer to choose to lift himself up in pride in an attempt to become like God. That led to his fall into what we call Satan today. Adam and Eve chose to disobey God in the Garden and, well...the story unfolds from there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rios929

In the bible it says that God created everything in seven days. God is outside of time, so "seven days" must be the time period that a human would have percieved to elapse if he were watching God create the universe? If God is outside of time, why would a measure of time even be used in the bible to describe the creation, for which only God was present? If "seven days" is supposed to be symbolism that actually stands for "billions of years", why didn't whoever wrote the bible just write "billions of years"?

Some - like those at my church - believe that the seven days were seven actual days. Others - like Figment I think - believe that the seven days are symbolic and that the actual time-frame of creation lasted millions of years. Personally, I suppose I haven't worried enough about it to form an opinion. Regardless, keep in mind that the Bible was written to teach to man what God wanted him to know. It had to be kept simple and readable. Not everyone can read a quantum-physics book from c