[asiliat]

Originally Posted by BDA116

Joseph Smith had a fourth grade education, hardly able to write anything on his own.

I haven't read the Book of Mormon, I'll be honest, but I just think that if it really, truely was a legitimate source of Christian literature, you'd think the other traditional Christian denominations would be jumping all over it, and try to incorporate it....

I don't want to argue, and felt ignorant because I don't know all the doctrines or beliefs of a modern day Mormon.

I did a couple of searches on the interweb, and although we always need to take things with a grain of salt found with google....

Well, maybe you can read this: http://www.gotquestions.org/Mormons.html

and tell me which is incorrect or misinterpreted from your end.

Thanks,

[Cowboy1600]

Originally Posted by asiliat

This is a part hoax though....

http://www.snopes.com/glurge/room.htm

No, no, dont do it....must resist....

[oldfogey]

Some interesting points here.

So the Catholic Church, the Mormons and (not previously mentioned, but parallel example) Muslims are all Christian because they are just following teachings of "prophets" or popes who followed on and whose believers then added these teachings to those of the bible.

And all of the above are Jewish because the old testament of the bible and Jesus' teachings are framed within the Jewish religion?

Well, hallelujiah, we can all stop fighting over these little details now, can't we?

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by oldfogey

So the Catholic Church, the Mormons and (not previously mentioned, but parallel example) Muslims are all Christian because they are just following teachings of "prophets" or popes who followed on and whose believers then added these teachings to those of the bible.

Absolutely NOT! Reread the definition of a "Christian" I posted.

Where Catholics and Mormons are similar, is that they believe there are other writings, by the head of their respective churches, no matter the title, that should be studied and abided.

[BDA116]

Quite funny when people get their twisted "facts" on something from a site with a clear intent to skew them.
I'll learn all about born agains from islam sites now, just to be sure I have a same level of understanding.

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by asiliat

Well, maybe you can read this: http://www.gotquestions.org/Mormons.html

I want to make a couple of points to you, and am not going to spend the time going through all of that nonsense.

Edit: the "cult" accusation cracks me up, you're welcome to just walk in to a Mormon church and attend their services anytime you like, they also do community events like scouting (open to non-members), and service projects, all HQ'd in their churches, the churches are all clearly marked and stand out.... If they're a secret cult, they're not very good at it...

That site is paid for and maintained by a "competing" church. Yes, it's sad to say, people, and especially some churches, feel like they're competing for members. Using this site to understand the Mormon church is kinda like going to moveon.org to learn about the republican party IMO.

If you truly want to know about the LDS Church, invite some missionaries over...or if you don't want them to know where you live, arrange a meeting away from your house. They will answer every question about the church you have. They will also explain to you why they believe in it.

I think a better question to ask yourself is why are all of these other churches going out of their way to bash the Mormons?

I have a lot of ideas on it, but I think the biggest one is competition.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is BY FAR the fastest growing CHRISTIAN religion in the world. Other Christian religions, like the Catholics, are losing members.

Another point I find interesting about this, the Mormon church actually has a fund, other religious faiths can apply to, for funding to build their own churches! I found out about this while I was in Utah recently. A large, beautiful Hari Krishna temple was built out by a relative's house. They told me the Mormon church had donated money in the 6 figures to help in construction.

Why? Mormons believe very strongly in community service and charity. They also make it VERY clear you should NEVER judge any other person for anything they do. Including attendance at another church.

BTW, for clarity, I was raised in the LDS church, and have many family members in it. Long ago (during high school) I chose organized religion in general was not for me, and have not attended in a very very long time. LDS kids goto "seminary" which is basically a class in religion before high school in the morning. (usually) I attended and we spent one year on each book. I have read the KJB, the Book of Mormon and others cover to cover and studied the meanings of each. I have forgotten much of the specifics, but still remember the generalities.

[BDA116]

I actually helped one Saturday a couple years ago on the construction of that Hari Krishna temple. It is a beautiful building, as are those that worship there.
Their open house celebration was quite the event, and they gave thanks to all those that helped, including the previously mentioned majority of monetary support.
Anyone that has an extra couple hours and is travelling I-15 through the area should stop off and check the building out. They are always willing to show it to the public.

[phobiaphobe]

To me, god, (Jesus, Allah, whatever) is an idea. There are a million ways that humans choose to worship, but I really think they're all worshipping basically the same thing. Who's right is it to say which way to worship is correct? If it works for YOU, and you are a good person, why should anyone else have a problem with that?

I personally will never believe in any god. I don't want to. Usually with the idea of god comes the idea that there is a better place than here... I just can't fathom that. So many people trying to be repentant and holy and righteous in this life so that they can go on to the next (better) life. If, as a side effect, it makes you a more understanding, more caring, more generous person, then great, I support that. But at the same time I feel like, when I die, it's no different than a fly getting swatted; lights out. It's over. That makes me want to enjoy my life as much as possible, because I only get one kick at the cat. Religious people, when they hear this view, always express pity; "I feel sorry for you, having no faith". Well I don't want faith, I don't want pity, I don't want to be saved. I feel pity for people that believe they're going on to something better. To me, this earth, this life, right now, is as good as it gets, make the most of it.

But I'm not here to tell anyone that my way is the right way... Just expressing myself.

edit: I don't consider myself "atheist", that is, I'm not 'opposed" to religion. Is "areligious" a word?

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

To me, god, (Jesus, Allah, whatever) is an idea. There are a million ways that humans choose to worship, but I really think they're all worshipping basically the same thing. Who's right is it to say which way to worship is correct? If it works for YOU, and you are a good person, why should anyone else have a problem with that?

I agree fully. As long as your "religion" does not promote hatred or violence to others.

[phobiaphobe]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

... As long as your "religion" does not promote hatred or violence to others.

ya that too.

[BDA116]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

I agree fully. As long as your "religion" does not promote hatred or violence to others.

+2

[TheEasterBunny]

I have to agree with Taz and Phobia. I feel pity for all the people who blindly follow a religion just because their family or friends follow it. I also STRONGLY agree with Taz on how geography and time are the two most defining factors to which religion you may or may not choose. I have used this exact argument (regarding the ancient gods) in religious debate. Religion has been and always will be, IMHO, just an explanation of the scientifically inexplainable. When indisputable scientific facts are discovered religion has always, throughout history, evolved to incorporate the knowledge... such as canning the idea that the sun was a god that rode a chariot across the sky, and the Earth was covered in a blanket that was pecked full of holes by a bird to make the stars. I believe that in another three thousand years people will look back on Christianity exactly how we look back on ancient Greek mythology or ancient Indian folk lore. I choose to follow the great Penn and Teller in that they are Agnostic, we don't know, will never no and probably don't even have the capacity to understand if we did know. Until I find otherwise, I'll stick to science.

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

Religious people, when they hear this view, always express pity; "I feel sorry for you, having no faith". Well I don't want faith, I don't want pity, I don't want to be saved. I feel pity for people that believe they're going on to something better. To me, this earth, this life, right now, is as good as it gets, make the most of it.

Why feel pity for the religious? Their faith helps them through trying times. It helps them not fear death. (I'll agree, a fundamental reason we have religion) And hopefully, it teaches some morals and ethics which lead to a happier life. Who cares what creates your "happiness"?

I think we can agree, not committing adultery, not stealing, lying, cheating, coveting etc etc is a happier way to live. Helping out your fellow man always makes you feel good. Whether it leads to a path in heaven or not.

Some people use religion, and the fear of divine "punishment" as the powerful motivator not to sleep with your neighbor's smokin' hot wife. And for whatever reason, it is a good thing not to do things like that.

I personally don't care whether it's the end when I die or not. It would make absolutely no difference in the way I live my life.

[asiliat]

5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:5-6 (New International Version)

The above two verses cannot spell it out any more clearly. Jesus is the way to Heaven. We will not get to meet our Father (God) except through Jesus.

Some of us don't like to choose sides, saying everything is okay as long as you're tolerent and isn't hurting anyone else. Others say there are many paths to the same end result, but the Bible doesn't support those beliefs.

In the end, no one can decide for you. You have to want to search for the truth in order to find it.

I said in the beginning that I don't know everything about mormonism, and of course there are MANY slanderous websites out to hurt each other - for religious beliefs or otherwise. Are churches competiting for membership? Maybe some are, but that's a humanistic explanation as to why these sites exist.

I'm sure that no matter what I type, no one will be convinced of anything, and I know that almost everytime, the worst method of spreading the Word is by arguing. All I can do is pray for you and hope that one day, you'll see that not everything is right. That sometimes, we do believe in the wrong thing. We're all humans, we all have pride, it's hard to admit being wrong.

I've been wrong, many times. But I have that blessed assurance and know in my heart that I've been saved.

As for the website that I linked to, like I said, I don't know all the doctrines, could you at least one or two points where what they described is incorrect? At least I can then be more mindful of my thoughts....

[BDA116]

So you use one of the bastardized versions of the Bible, too?
I'll pray for you that one day you see you are wrong.


Pretty stupid stuff to post on the internet, huh?

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by asiliat

5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:5-6 (New International Version)

The above two verses cannot spell it out any more clearly. Jesus is the way to Heaven. We will not get to meet our Father (God) except through Jesus.

Some thoughful soul put the KJB online. Here is the verses you just quoted from the Bible the Mormons use, the one the majority of Christian religions use, the KJB. (not trying to assert it is superior to the one you read, just that the mormons use the same one as other religions you consider Christian) I quote it here because I think it needs to be kept in context, and because I've studied it.

5: Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

What I am trying to understand, is how these verses "prove" Mormons aren't Christian?!

I don't know how to make you understand this. Mormons use the same Bible the majority of Christians across the world do! It does not, it cannot, contradict any doctrine in the Mormon church. It is part of the doctrine of the LDS church. They do not say, "Oh, only read and live the parts we like".

Others say there are many paths to the same end result, but the Bible doesn't support those beliefs.

The Bible also contradicts itself. I was taught in the Mormon church that all religious works are imperfect because they are the work of man. They are subject to his opinions, ability and attitudes. The Bible you use, has been interpreted by yet another man (probably a group), likely using the KJB as source material, which was interpreted by scores of other men. There are bound to be errata because of this. Ever tried a chain letter?

But, we are stuck with what we have. They are the best there is. Therefore, they are what man must use as a guide.

Also, the Bible is basically a collection of writings from men who were religious. Why is it Christians, outside of Mormons and Catholics, think there are no modern men of God able to write?

Maybe some are, but that's a humanistic explanation as to why these sites exist.

Yes. But we are dealing with the works of man. There are no scriptures that say "the Mormons have it wrong." Only the writings of men twisting the Bible to their ends.

All I can do is pray for you and hope that one day, you'll see that not everything is right. That sometimes, we do believe in the wrong thing.

Yes, someone is right. Maybe all of the religions are wrong. They certainly are all at least partially wrong. (including the Mormons) The problem is, after we find out, we don't get to tell anyone. Pray for me if you like, I take that as a compliment. But you can be sure, I'm at peace with myself and my choices. My mortality. And how it will end here on earth. If there is a God, I don't fear my day of judgement. In fact, I hope it is all right. I'd love to see loved ones lost again. That is a very nice idea.

[BDA116]

That's one thing I've always tried to figure out as well. You see, LDS people and Missionaries use the very same passage of scripture, and believe every bit as much as all the hundreds ofdifferent born again sects that Christ is the passageway to the Father.
I've been told many times that is the only way you can be Christian by hundreds of those various homegrown sects.
So, using their very narrowed view of Christianity, we ARE Christians.
Of course, then their story changes again and again every time each of their issues comes up, therefore there is no point to discuss it with someone that has no interest nor open heart or mind in learing facts.

[luvtolean]

OK, I'll go through some of this website's drivel. It's kinda fun.

Answer: The Mormon religion was founded less than two hundred years ago by a man named Joseph Smith. He claimed to have received a personal visit from God the Father and Jesus Christ

True! (kinda actually, not totally, he had "visions")

...and told that all churches and their creeds were an abomination.

Not true. Joseph believed that the other churches could be improved. Mormons share MANY of the beliefs of other churches. This should be evident, they use the same Bible! It is not believed other churches are an abomination. If Mormons thought other religions were "abominations" they wouldn't help people build their other churches.

Joseph set out to impose a brand-new religion that claims to be the “only true church on earth.”

True. What church doesn't?

And what I really like is that he said "on earth". That is a subtle piece the author might have picked up from reading on the Mormon religion, perhaps subconsciously. The Mormons do believe they are the most correct here "on earth". But not perfect.

The problem with Mormonism is that it contradicts, modifies, and expands on the Bible.

FALSE! Mormons use the same Bible. Take a Bible out of the hands of a Mormon, and you'll find the same thing as one from a Catholic.

Christians have no reason to believe that the Bible is not true. To truly believe in and trust God means to believe in His Word.

Nice rhetoric I guess. It tries to hint that Mormons don't do these things. But of course, they do.

And all Scripture is inspired by God, which means it comes from Him (1Tim 3:16).

WOW! That is a highly translated version, here's the KJB line:

16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/toc...&division=div1

Nice verse I guess, I still don't know what it has to do with disproving Mormon religion.

I'll take on his next paragraph in one fell swoop:

Mormons believe that there are in fact four sources of divinely inspired words, instead of just one. 1) The Bible “as far as it is translated correctly.” Which verses are incorrectly translated are not always made clear 2) The Book of Mormon was “translated” by Smith and published in 1830. Smith claimed it is the “most correct book” on earth, and that a person could get closer to God by following its precepts, “than by any other book.” 3) The Doctrine and Covenants is considered scripture by Mormons, containing a collection of modern revelations regarding the “Church of Jesus Christ as it has been restored.” 4) The Pearl of the Great Price is considered by Mormons to “clarify” doctrines and teachings that were lost from the Bible and adds its own information about the earth's creation.

Look at the words, "divinely inspired". Doesn't that apply to anything a person does? If you believe you are following Christ, aren't you divinely inspired? As you write your thoughts in this thread, do you not feel you inspired to write them by your belief in the divine? So, what is wrong that someone else did the same?

Skipping the next one. The first sentence is clearly wrong, but I haven't "studied" some of the more abstract Mormon teachings in a long time so I'll leave that stuff be.

Mormons believe that there are different levels or kingdoms in the afterlife: The Celestial Kingdom, the Terrestrial Kingdom, the Telestial Kingdom and outer darkness.

Very true. For me an easy thing to accept. I've never been able to understand how someone thinks as long as they "belive in Jesus", they are saved. This would mean you could break all of the ten commandments having to do with "behavior", 4-10, and be the same as someone who lived a virtuous life. That means, a child raping murderer goes to heaven just as easily as a priest as long as he "believes". That has always been hard for me to swallow.

The Mormon system is more of a meritocracy.

Where mankind will end up depends on what they believe and do in this mortal life. The Bible tells us that after death, we go to Heaven or Hell based on whether we had faith in Jesus or not.

Yes, what I don't understand is, how is this contradictory? "Having faith in Jesus" is certainly part of the Mormon model of heaven.

Unbelievers are sent to Hell, or the place of the dead (Luke 16:22-23).

Man, that is way out there. I sure wish I knew what "Bible" this person was using... Here is the KJB version:

22: And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23: And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

That is part of the story of a rich man and beggar who die in the KJB. Again, how does this contradict anything the Mormons say?

Blah blah, he quotes scriptures which in their KJB form, Mormons all believe in, study, and incorporate into their model of heaven.

OK, I'm bored. This guy is starting paragraphs with truths. Twisting them, and then quoting some over translated Bible with the subtle hint those passages contradict Mormon beliefs. Maybe they do, in the same way they disagree with anyone who uses the King James Bible.

[ccwilli3]

can someone comment why the catholic church is losing members?

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by ccwilli3

can someone comment why the catholic church is losing members?

The Mormons are taking their market share.

J/K, I have absolutely no friggin' clue.