[Custom900]

Originally Posted by sheepofblue

All true and good points.

When I donate money to help others though I prefer the highest percentage goes to the good works I was trying to aid. If the preacher (or CEO of a charity orginization) is living high on the hog than means a lower percentage is used for the purpose I wished to achieve.

That's not always true. There are documented cases in which greed has gotten the best of people, such as with the Red Cross, but that isn't always the case. It has also been pointed out that Joel has written many books. Could the revenue we see not have come from that endevor?

By the way, the Church supports the Pastor. The Pastor leads, guides, teaches, counsels, coordinates different things within the Church, and the list goes on.
Is the worker not worth the wages?
Think before you answer - the same answer can be applied to us all.

[phobiaphobe]

Originally Posted by Custom900

...
I'm not judt defending Osteen here, I'm defending every Preacher. Preacher's have a right to make a salary too. Why should Preacher's be viewed as poor? I don't get it.

Jesus was poor.

Originally Posted by Custom900

...I can't help myself any longer. If you guys believe anything that you are saying - if you take any of this stuff serious then I can conclude that you have no idea what you're talking about.

I thought you enjoyed this type of discussion? The religion forum is a ruthless place.

[BDA116]

Many religions have ministers that don't draw a penny of pay. Many of those religions are far larger and draw multitudes more funds than this guy.

[Custom900]

Originally Posted by BizJetGuy

Isn't he living tax-free because he's "clergy"?

Nope - Minsters pay taxes just as if they are self employed. That means the taxes for Ministers, just like for business owners, sux.

[Red Rider]

Isn't it about sacrifice though?

"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God" (Matthew 19:24).

Lest ye forget...

[Custom900]

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

Jesus was poor.



I thought you enjoyed this type of discussion? The religion forum is a ruthless place.

It's not that I'm not enjoying the debate - I just needed to make that statement. I'm human.

Bring it on my friendly foe

[phobiaphobe]

Originally Posted by BDA116

Many religions have ministers that don't draw a penny of pay. Many of those religions are far larger and draw multitudes more funds than this guy.

Didn't the Pope drive a VW Golf?

[sheepofblue]

Originally Posted by Custom900

That's not always true. There are documented cases in which greed has gotten the best of people, such as with the Red Cross, but that isn't always the case. It has also been pointed out that Joel has written many books. Could the revenue we see not have come from that endevor?

By the way, the Church supports the Pastor. The Pastor leads, guides, teaches, counsels, coordinates different things within the Church, and the list goes on.
Is the worker not worth the wages?
Think before you answer - the same answer can be applied to us all.

All correct again I was referring to what I would do with my $$$. What others do with thiers is up to them

[luvtolean]

Custom900, what did you think of the Pope starting copyright lawsuits on his writings?

If the churches hadn't bled the people dry over the ages, I think you'd see much less of this attitude. It's a reaction.

What you are seeing are enlightened people, who correctly question why they should give some preacher or church their money.

And when they do give them their money, people question why the preacher should live in more opulence than they do.

[Mojave954]

I think it is time the Fed Gov't started taxing them on their incomes. This is sickening.

[bwhip]

Mark 10:17-24
17 ¶ And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
23 ¶ And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

...not judging anyone here. I certainly haven't sold all I've had to give to the poor. But shouldn't one's highest sense of right mirror this guidance to some degree?

[esoteric]

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

Damn right. That money that he's living like a prince on came from people who thought they were donating it to a good cause. People who make 20000 a year.

USD or CAD? Because that's the difference between poor and really poor.

[Custom900]

Originally Posted by Mojave954

I think it is time the Fed Gov't started taxing them on their incomes. This is sickening.

And they do - very much so
Ministers are treated by the Gov't as a business

[esoteric]

Originally Posted by Mojave954

I think it is time the Fed Gov't started taxing them on their incomes. This is sickening.

And more fundamentally, I don't think church donations should be tax-deductible. Non-profits act in a non-profit manner while churches manage to gain significant assets. With our current political climate the whole process ends up being a giant system for bible thumpers to redistribute money... mostly from the bottom to the top.

[Custom900]

Originally Posted by esoteric

USD or CAD? Because that's the difference between poor and really poor.

That's a great comment. I love it.
CAD would equal below the poverty line as far as $20,000 goes.

[Custom900]

Originally Posted by esoteric

And more fundamentally, I don't think church donations should be tax-deductible. Non-profits act in a non-profit manner while churches manage to gain significant assets. With our current political climate the whole process ends up being a giant system for bible thumpers to redistribute money... mostly from the bottom to the top.

Here's an interesting tid-bit for ya. Minister's cannot legally deduct what they give to the Church. But yes, anyone else can take what they give to any non-profit org as an exemption.

And no - money is not distributed like would think. The Church was never designed to be a "Money Making" business. In the Bible you find Jesus getting angry over people misusing the Church for selfish profit. The Church, when properly governed, is very effective. It helps those in need, provides Spiritual education, teaches community, and yes - it takes care of the Minister(s).

[Custom900]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

Custom900, what did you think of the Pope starting copyright lawsuits on his writings?

If the churches hadn't bled the people dry over the ages, I think you'd see much less of this attitude. It's a reaction.

What you are seeing are enlightened people, who correctly question why they should give some preacher or church their money.

And when they do give them their money, people question why the preacher should live in more opulence than they do.

I have to reserve my feelings about the Catholic Church. Much of what I have seen come from them does not set well with me. Just to give you a glimpse I would say that the Catholic Church in general (Not every Catholic Church) is power hungry. They have used false information and gimmcks in many instances to get people to believe. One example would be the Crying Mary in Cali recently.

As far as the debate goes - I'm all for it. Bring on the enlightened people. Maybe we can all become a bit more enlightened together. That's what this forum is all about - right?

Hey - you guys are about the best group I have found as far as the CBR goes. This is a good group of people. If we all had the same exact veiws then the world wouldn't be as much fun. I'm not here to say one person is right and another wrong. I allow people to come to the conclusion the same way I did - By reviewing the evidence before them. If they decide to believe differently I cannot force others to take my view on religion.
Do I believe in God and go to Church? Yes. Do I give? Yes. Do I believe that the money goes to a good cause including a Pastor \ Preacher's salary? Yes.

Would I own a 2.5 million dollar home, 2 Porsches, and other fine items if it were made available to me? Well, that would all depend upon the other investments that hang in the balance. Extravagant homes, luxury Sports Cars and the like are all extras. If I could have it and easily take care of all my other responsibilies I would likely have a garage like Jay Leno - and then I would fill it with bikes of all makes, models, and eras.

I think a Harley would make a good trash-can - that or a toilet

[Scout]

“The Church is full of hypocrites!”

It hurts even more when we consider that the accusation is not completely baseless.

The church’s corporate reputation could certainly use a makeover. The steady stream of moral failure by church leaders and the inconsistencies of some followers support the accusation. As if the present hypocrisies were not enough, we have inherited a checkered past. Along with its many positive contributions, the church is also responsible for the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and the Salem Witch Trials. In the past (and sadly, sometimes into the present) racism, sexism, nationalism, and materialism have been promoted in and through the church. The lack of love, unity, tolerance, and peace has resulted in endless fragmentation into countless denominations. All these things fall short of Christian ideals. Add to this the personal sting many feel who have been “burned” by the church and you have a pretty strong case for hypocrisy. The church may not be full of hypocrites – there are plenty of good and sincere people within it – but it is by no means empty of them.






“Now you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and of the platter; but inside of you, you are full of robbery and wickedness. You foolish ones, did not He who made the outside make the inside also? But give that which is within as charity, and then all things are clean for you.” (Luke 11:39-41)

“Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. But there is nothing covered up that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known. Accordingly, whatever you have said in the dark will be heard in the light, and what you have whispered in the inner rooms will be proclaimed upon the housetops.” (Luke 12:1-3)

There are many who say I don’t want to be a Christian because all the hypocrites go to Church. This in itself shows that they are even more of a hypocrite then those they criticize. Businesses are full of hypocrites but the same person who sees an opportunity to make money doesn’t have this stop them do business with these people. People see married couples have their spouses cheat on them, but that doesn’t stop that same person from getting married or staying a confirmed bachelor. TV is filled with hypocrites, liars and cheats. Most of the talk shows glamorize them, but they will still watch TV. Advertisements are hypocritical but they don't stop buying the products because of it. Some used car salesman can certainly fit the bill for this category yet no one will stop buying cars because of their intense sales rap. Politicians are some great examples of hypocrisy but we still vote hoping the one we choose will be honest and keep his promises.

http://www.theocentric.com/theoarchi...0368.html#more

[esoteric]

Originally Posted by Custom900

And no - money is not distributed like would think. The Church was never designed to be a "Money Making" business. In the Bible you find Jesus getting angry over people misusing the Church for profit. The Church, when properly governed, is very effective. It helps those in need, provides Spiritual education, teaches community, and yes - it takes care of the Minister(s).

I'm referring more to GB's incessant need to preferably direct taxpayer funds through his religous based organizations for everything from sex education programs to hurricaine aid as opposed to established groups that are not only experienced but qualified to undertake those roles. Combined with the extreme politcizing of recent elections, donations by religous groups to political parties, and partisan promotion in church groups, the flow of money through back-scratching and laundering is undeniable.

I understand the situation adn the purpose under which the church(es) were founded and designed and it doesn't so much matter what happened in those times in this regard, but how those institutions are implemented in modern society. Lets' face it, Bible or not, there are a number of versions of the Bible that are interpreted in many fast and loose ways (at least as fast and loose as the extremeist Muslims are with their texts right now). Whether Jesus gets angry or not, it's only the paritioners that can put a clear stop to it since passing the laws just isn't going to happen with this administration.

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by Custom900

Here's an interesting tid-bit for ya. Minister's cannot legally deduct what they give to the Church. But yes, anyone else can take what they give to any non-profit org as an exemption.

I think that is for a very obvious reason.

[Custom900]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

I think that is for a very obvious reason.

I have got to hear the "why".

[luvtolean]

It would allow for an exceptionally easy means "morally poor" ministers could use to "launder" money without paying taxes.

Not saying you, or even all ministers would do such a thing, but I see why the IRS does it.