Can you have Jesus without God?

phobiaphobe · 09-15-2005, 7:14 PM

There has been some hot debate on creationist VS evolutionist on the board recently. I have to classify myself as an atheist; I don't believe in a higher power. I do, however, believe that Jesus Christ was a real person. A real man, but just a man.

What if Jesus Christ was just a man? A very charismatic, peaceful, loving, extremely intelligent (if slightly insane) MAN. Not a son of god.

With all due respect, I want to hear what the Christians (and others) here think of this perspective. Please share your beliefs, opinions, and knowledge with complete objectivity and without judgement.

Can you follow the teachings of Jesus without believing in God?

sheepofblue · 09-15-2005, 7:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

There has been some hot debate on creationist VS evolutionist on the board recently. I have to classify myself as an atheist; I don't believe in a higher power. I do, however, believe that Jesus Christ was a real person. A real man, but just a man.

What if Jesus Christ was just a man? A very charismatic, peaceful, loving, extremely intelligent (if slightly insane) MAN. Not a son of god.

With all due respect, I want to hear what the Christians (and others) here think of this perspective. Please share your beliefs, opinions, and knowledge with complete objectivity and without judgement.

Can you follow the teachings of Jesus without believing in God?

Certainly there are those that believe and fail to follow the beliefs. Of course if you include the church you get a much fuller set of teachings.

luvtolean · 09-15-2005, 7:25 PM

AFAIK, most religious scholars (and by this I mean academic, not necessarily affiliated with any church) concluded Jesus was in fact a real man.

The real debate is divinity.

rocket · 09-15-2005, 7:35 PM

He was either the Lord as he claimed , a Liar (because he claimed to be Deity), or a Lunatic for the same reason. You can't really say he was a great man without admitting he was God. Why? Because he made some very distinct claims that He was in fact God. How can you be a good moral teacher and knowingly mislead people at the most important point of His teaching - His own identity?

sheepofblue · 09-15-2005, 7:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocket

He was either the Lord as he claimed , a Liar (because he claimed to be Deity), or a Lunatic for the same reason. You can't really say he was a great man without admitting he was God. Why? Because he made some very distinct claims that He was in fact God. How can you be a good moral teacher and knowingly mislead people at the most important point of His teaching - His own identity?

Actually I believe Islam and maybe Judaism consider him a prophet.

rocket · 09-15-2005, 7:59 PM

Maybe this will better explain where I am coming from.

rocket · 09-15-2005, 8:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepofblue

Actually I believe Islam and maybe Judaism consider him a prophet.

They can consider him a great skydiver if they want to sheep. He claimed to be God. If they choose to ignore that than that is their issue.

sheepofblue · 09-15-2005, 8:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocket

They can consider him a great skydiver if they want to sheep. He claimed to be God. If they choose to ignore that than that is their issue.

Maybe they do not believe that part was correctly recorded

I am not that familiar with the reasoning.

dbgoff · 09-15-2005, 10:24 PM

Quote:

T(because he claimed to be Deity), or a Lunatic for the same reason. You can't really say he was a great man without admitting he was God. Why? Because he made some very distinct claims that He was in fact God.

Jesus never made the claim he was God in any way. Check your Bible passages. Jesus prayed to the Father, God. Jesus was a man of flesh and blood. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the light. No man cometh to the Father except through me".
Jesus did claim to be the son of God, but never in any Bible passage claimed to be God.

Stealth · 09-15-2005, 10:55 PM

With regard to your question " Can you follow the teachings of Jesus without believing in God?"

I can't see how as he is a believer in God and his teachings teach about God...to follow his teachings IS to believe in God...

IL0veFish · 09-15-2005, 11:42 PM

Don't call him Jesus Christ, Christ isn't his last name it means son of god. So if you're now an atheist just call him Jesus of Nazareth. If you just say Jesus someone might confuse him with Jesus ben Sirach.

fst929 · 09-16-2005, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbgoff

Jesus never made the claim he was God in any way. Check your Bible passages. Jesus prayed to the Father, God. Jesus was a man of flesh and blood. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the light. No man cometh to the Father except through me".
Jesus did claim to be the son of God, but never in any Bible passage claimed to be God.

+1...

lots of good replies here...."I am the way, the truth, and the light. No man cometh to the Father exept through me..." translation.......you dont get to "God" (father of all Man) unless you play by the rules I say.

Jesus also said we are all children of "God"...

My thoughts on the question....

Jesus was a man...flesh and blood. But so was Mohammed, Buddah, ETC....all of these men were prophets who were given the gift/responsibility of communicating the wisdom of "god" and the nature of the universe to thier people. Look at the collection of scriptures...Old/New testaments..Rig Veda...Upanishads..Bhagavad Gita...Koran...Dhammapada....Quran..I Ching...Torah...Talmud...Mahabharata...

Rule books....all of them.And good reading too boot! Thier content divulged through experience and passed on...others through wisdom and to be taken on faith. All again rulebooks with lots of good infomation presented as directives, alagory, fable,and anecdote in a context each of thier cultures could relate to. Rules on how to live a just, kind, mindfull life and not destroy each other. Some through personal responsibility, others through threats of damnation. Each claims to be THE path...good luck figuring it out.

Can you follow the teachings of jesus without believing in "God" ?? I say yes....a good life is after all, about the choices you make...regardless of the motivation behind it....

my 2 cents

fst929 · 09-16-2005, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealth

...... his teachings teach about God...to follow his teachings IS to believe in God...

They are teachings about how to live as "God" intended...not so much about "God"

figment · 09-16-2005, 11:45 AM

John 14:9 (New International Version)

New International Version (NIV)

9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

QuikMike · 09-16-2005, 11:59 AM

I say "No".....to believe in Jesus is to believe that he was sent by His Father, GOD, born of a virgin(Mary) and suffered and died for our sins....therefore, if you believe in Jesus, you MUST believe in GOD...I do believe he was a man(flesh and blood) as stated previously, but a man sent with a divine will and duty....just my 2 cents....

Scout · 09-16-2005, 12:14 PM

..and many other passages.

I've taken a cursory look at how other religions and denominations (of the "One God", that mention Jesus in various states of divinity).

It all comes down to the divinity question - and that's generally what separates the parties on the subject. Metaphysically it's a hard topic to grapple with.

I agree, Jesus has stated he was God. The easiest explanation I've heard concerning the Holy Trinity - that being the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit - is the comparison to an egg.

There's the shell, the white, and the yoke. But they're all one egg.

For Phobe's question, there is a group who absolutely believes in "Jesus without God", and they are called The Church of Jesus Christ Scientist. From one of their believers, "Jesus wasn't God, he was just a really cool dude with good teachings." I haven't look to close at this one, after that.

phobiaphobe · 09-16-2005, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fst929

My thoughts on the question....

Jesus was a man...flesh and blood. But so was Mohammed, Buddah, ETC....all of these men were prophets who were given the gift/responsibility of communicating the wisdom of "god" and the nature of the universe to thier people. Look at the collection of scriptures...Old/New testaments..Rig Veda...Upanishads..Bhagavad Gita...Koran...Dhammapada....Quran..I Ching...Torah...Talmud...Mahabharata...

Rule books....all of them.And good reading too boot! Thier content divulged through experience and passed on...others through wisdom and to be taken on faith. All again rulebooks with lots of good infomation presented as directives, alagory, fable,and anecdote in a context each of thier cultures could relate to. Rules on how to live a just, kind, mindfull life and not destroy each other. Some through personal responsibility, others through threats of damnation. Each claims to be THE path...good luck figuring it out.

Can you follow the teachings of jesus without believing in "God" ?? I say yes....a good life is after all, about the choices you make...regardless of the motivation behind it....

my 2 cents

Well said. Thanks.

phobiaphobe · 09-16-2005, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scout

....

For Phobe's question, there is a group who absolutely believes in "Jesus without God", and they are called The Church of Jesus Christ Scientist. From one of their believers, "Jesus wasn't God, he was just a really cool dude with good teachings." I haven't look to close at this one, after that.

That's basically where I stand, though I've never heard of them and I'm not a member of any organized group. I'll have to find their web site.

Scout · 09-16-2005, 12:38 PM

1st link describing belief's:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/cr_sci.htm

2nd link for contact:

http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/disc...sp?boardID=438

I don't prescribe to this belief, and will not defend it, but I'm not against people making their own decisions...

BladeRider · 09-16-2005, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by figment

John 14:9 (New International Version)

New International Version (NIV)

9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Same Chapter:

John 14:28 (New International Version)

28"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

fst929 · 09-16-2005, 2:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BladeRider

Same Chapter:

John 14:28 (New International Version)

28"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

and this means.......

figment · 09-16-2005, 2:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BladeRider

Same Chapter:

John 14:28 (New International Version)

28"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

yes, because the "Father" part of the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Pretty basic Christian beliefs. Thats why Jesus had to leave before Pentecost, so that the Holy Spirit could manifest. (Many speculate on why the Three can not be present at once in this dimension.) The Trinity of the Christian God is still not clearly understood by Christians and most agree that much of it is a mystery.

ER · 09-16-2005, 2:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocket

He was either the Lord as he claimed , a Liar (because he claimed to be Deity), or a Lunatic for the same reason. You can't really say he was a great man without admitting he was God. Why? Because he made some very distinct claims that He was in fact God. How can you be a good moral teacher and knowingly mislead people at the most important point of His teaching - His own identity?

+1

Who people say Christ was defines what they believe.

John 1:1-5: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

God in the Bible is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit - three eternally distinct beings acting in a perfect harmony as one God. If you believe this then it would be impossible to follow Christ's teachings without believing in God since He is in fact God. Make sense?