[figment]

http://www.theology.edu/faq01.htm

[figment]

Why/how can we trust what it says?
http://www.backtothebible.org/articles/kroll-part1.html
http://www.biblesearch.com/answers/b...iboripres1.htm

[luvtolean]

You know, not to sound like an inveterate cynic (though I guess I am by training) but I don't like it when people use quotes from material, to prove said material is "the word of God" ie, what said material claims to be...

For example, a superlative from the first link:


Paul's greatest affirmation that the Bible is the authentic Word of God is 2 Timothy 3:16: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

Of course, I was done at the first page, so maybe I missed the good stuff.

It'd be far more interesting if the information came from alternate, non-religious sources. (Which I know do exist)

[figment]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

Of course, I was done at the first page, so maybe I missed the good stuff.

Sounds like it.

Originally Posted by luvtolean

It'd be far more interesting if the information came from alternate, non-religious sources. (Which I know do exist)

Kinda like asking a refrigerator what a washingmachine does.

Theres plenty of biblical history supported by other documents. Many people have done extensive research to refute the bible and have had a conversion as a result. I find a consistent attitude of presumption from people who have never read the bible (or obviously major portions of it), judging it to be this or that. It's a shame.

[luvtolean]

I've read the whole thing, Old and New Testament of the KJB, and spent hundreds of hours studying it.

I didn't come away a convert. I came away thinking it was an interesting old book, that may or may not have been "Holy".

That said, I've never read a book that said it's teachings weren't true. I have no reason to think the Bible would.

[Sunbert]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

It'd be far more interesting if the information came from alternate, non-religious sources. (Which I know do exist)

That's where faith comes in. There's not going to be any proof that Scripture is God-breathed except for what's in the Bible. Faith is being sure of what you hope for and certain of what you cannot see. As I said in the ID theory post, if there was proof in other sources, there wouldn't be a dabate.

[ND4SPD]

How many other books have you read that are as timeless? Meaning they still apply today after thousands of years and probably will for a long time.

[luvtolean]

Faith always comes up in these discussions. Pointless term to me.

I've spent literally thousands of hours in church, studying the Bible and thinking about it. I do consider myself a spiritual person in my own way.

The conclusion of my thoughts on the subject were several of course, but here's a few.

Religion, no matter the faith, is purposely designed to be "beyond mortals". According to the Bible, God is Omnisicient. Ominpresent. And Omnipotent. I personally can't understand how a genius thinks. And a genius is way below the level of God. So how is a person supposed to understand? They aren't. They're supposed to have faith.

I've spent plenty of time in churches among well meaning people. People are by definition imperfect. And as such, it makes going to church a miserable experience for me. I feel far more spiritual climbing a mountain than I ever have in church.

I believe all religions are at least partially wrong. Yet, there is no institution that has caused more senseless war and death than organized religion. Hard for me to want to be a part of that.

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by ND4SPD

How many other books have you read that are as timeless? Meaning they still apply today after thousands of years and probably will for a long time.

Like I said, it is an interesting old book. So is the Art of War, by Sun Tzu. So is The Peloponnesian War by Thucydides. They are timeless as well. Not as widely circulated, and they don't offer a "method of living after dying", but they certainly are "ancient", and full of commentary on the human condition.

[ND4SPD]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

Faith always comes up in these discussions. Pointless term to me.

I've spent literally thousands of hours in church, studying the Bible and thinking about it. I do consider myself a spiritual person in my own way.

The conclusion of my thoughts on the subject were several of course, but here's a few.

Religion, no matter the faith, is purposely designed to be "beyond mortals". According to the Bible, God is Omnisicient. Ominpresent. And Omnipotent. I personally can't understand how a genius thinks. And a genius is way below the level of God. So how is a person supposed to understand? They aren't They're supposed to have faith.

I've spent plenty of time in churches among well meaning people. People are by definition imperfect. And as such, it makes going to church a miserable experience for me. I feel far more spiritual climbing a mountain than I ever have in church.

I believe all religions are at least partially wrong. Yet, there is institution that has caused more senseless war and death than organized religion. Hard for me to want to be a part of that.

Sometimes a church is no better than Congress and its members...as in just a building full of a bunch of politicians

[ER]

LTL, I would encourage you to read Lee Strobel's A Case for Christ. It's a fast and excellent read and it might be what you're looking for. From amazon:

The Case for Christ records Lee Strobel's attempt to "determine if there's credible evidence that Jesus of Nazareth really is the Son of God." The book consists primarily of interviews between Strobel (a former legal editor at the Chicago Tribune) and biblical scholars such as Bruce Metzger. Each interview is based on a simple question, concerning historical evidence (for example, "Can the Biographies of Jesus Be Trusted?"), scientific evidence, ("Does Archaeology Confirm or Contradict Jesus' Biographies?"), and "psychiatric evidence" ("Was Jesus Crazy When He Claimed to Be the Son of God?"). Together, these interviews compose a case brief defending Jesus' divinity, and urging readers to reach a verdict of their own.

Lee Strobel confesses to be a former atheistic journalistic who came to faith when he tried to disprove the Bible. Read his book and see what you think - you can draw your own conclusions.

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by ER

LTL, I would encourage you to read Lee Strobel's A Case for Christ. It's a fast and excellent read and it might be what you're looking for. From amazon:

Sounds like it's an interesting read, but not written at the level of a professional journalist. I plan to goto the bookstore for other stuff this weekend though, I'll check it out.

First review (INTERESTING DATE, I don't think I could've written this clearly that day!):

http://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/.../stars-3-0.gifExcellent apologetics but horrible journalism, September 11, 2001
Reviewer:jlowder@infidels.org (USA) - See all my reviewsI wish Amazon.com didn't force reviewers to rate all books with 1-5 stars. Since I was forced to rate Lee Strobel's book _Case for Christ_ I gave it 3 stars, but that's not really how I feel. As an introductory apologetics book I would give it 5 stars, but as a work by a journalist I would give it 1 star. Read on to find out why.

Lee Strobel is an ex-investigative reporter for the Chicago Tribune who describes himself as a "former spiritual skeptic." Using his skills as a former legal affairs journalist, Strobel set out to "retrace and expand upon the spiritual journey ... [he] took for nearly two years." The Case for Christ is a summary of Strobel's interviews with thirteen leading Evangelical apologists, including Craig Blomberg, Bruze Metzger, Edwin Yamauchi, Ben Witherington III, and William Lane Craig.
In light of Strobel's frequent reminders that he used to be a hard-nosed, skeptical journalist, I skimmed the table of contents and index to see which critics of Christianity he interviewed. In so doing, I discovered a glaring deficiency in Strobel's journalism: Strobel did not interview any critics of Christian apologetics, even though he attacks such individuals in his book. For example, Strobel devotes an entire chapter to his interview of Greg Boyd (an outspoken faultfinder of the Jesus Seminar), yet Strobel never interviewed a single member of the Jesus Seminar itself! Likewise, he repeatedly criticizes Michael Martin, author of Case Against Christianity, but he never bothered to get Martin's responses to those attacks. This hardly constitutes balanced reporting on Strobel's part; indeed, on this basis, one is tempted to dismiss the entire book.
Nonetheless, I was compelled to review _The Case for Christ_, for two reasons. First, it comes with a number of endorsements from high-profile Evangelicals. Second, Strobel interviewed a number of high-caliber Evangelical apologists, many of whom are worthy of consideration in and of themselves. Thus _The Case for Christ_ constitutes a pseudo-anthology of Evangelical scholarship. I have reviewed Strobel's book in detail on my website, but here I will summarize its major strengths and weaknesses. _Case for Christ_ is a creative, well-written contribution to Christian apologetics. Moreover, Strobel is to be commended for summarizing the work of so many leading apologists for Evangelical Christianity in such a compact and easy-to-read format. Yet Strobel did not interview any critics of Evangelical apologetics. He sometimes refutes at great length objections
not made by the critics (e.g., the claim that Jesus was mentally insane); more often, he doesn't address objections the critics do make (e.g., the unreliability of human memory, that non-Christian historians do not provide any independent confirmation for the deity of Jesus, etc.) Perhaps this will be a welcome feature to people who already believe Christianity but have no idea why they believe it. For those of us who are primarily interested in the truth, however, we want to hear both sides of the story.

[ER]

That's an accurate review of the book - Strobel didn't spend much time interviewing leading Atheists and what-not. But his purpose wasn't to start a debate since he himself was the skeptic trying to grill the apologetics to see what he could learn.

I hope you still read the book even if you feel the need to find a well-written book from "the other side" and read it as well.

[luvtolean]

I'll check it out while at the store, if his style is decent maybe I'll pick it up. (so many books so little time and money!)

It would be interesting to me for the reasons this person mentions, "the opinions of leading evangelicals".

[ER]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

Faith always comes up in these discussions. Pointless term to me.

This is the ironic part about discussions of truth and the Bible - you have to have faith in order to find the truth that you seek!

Hebrews 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

[luvtolean]

Like I said....

[jaim]

The Bible. Nice piece of fiction. Enough said.

Oh, the current King James bible is not that old. Let alone the Morman Bible. There were much older texts from the mediteranian region but most texts from the ancient world were physically wiped clean by the vatican and reused to print more biblical tripe.

[fst929]

Originally Posted by ND4SPD

How many other books have you read that are as timeless? Meaning they still apply today after thousands of years and probably will for a long time.

The Art of War
I Ching
Tibetan book of the dead
there is a pretty long list

[fst929]

Originally Posted by ER

This is the ironic part about discussions of truth and the Bible - you have to have faith in order to find the truth that you seek!

Hebrews 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

does faith find you the answers to how DNA works....or help understand fliud mechanics...

I dont take on faith that my transmission will work forever because some well educated salesman says it will...

[fst929]

"....the Bible is a collection of books written over a span of some centuries by approximately 40 different authors. These books are divided into two main sections, which we call the Old and New Testaments. There is a span of hundreds of years between the writing of the last Old Testament book, and the first New Testament book..."

Taken from the 2nd link in the 1st post.



if 40 people gave 2nd,3rd,4th, 5th, 6th hand testimony in court to that extent 50 - 300 years after a crime....would we even consider it to be valid?


where are all the other gospels....selectively omitted from view and scrutiny by the vatican?

[ER]

Originally Posted by fst929

does faith find you the answers to how DNA works....or help understand fliud mechanics...

I dont take on faith that my transmission will work forever because some well educated salesman says it will...

Well, you're kind of going off in a different direction here. Having faith in Christ and in believing that God is who He says He is doesn't have much to do with your transmission. The Bible tells us that faith is required to have a relationship with God rather than a "show me who you are and THEN I'll believe" attitude. We see because we believe - not the other way around. As Sonny wrote in the other thread, faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Hebrews 11:1-3 - Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for. By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

Read the entire chapter - it's great.

[figment]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

Like I said....

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

[Kuss929]

Who wrote the Bible?

Velvet Jones. It as simple as dat.

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by figment

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

And without faith, the clergy lose their worldly power, and the Bible is just another book.