Judge not lest ye be judged

figment · 09-27-2005, 1:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esoteric

Actually, that's like the no guns argument. Guns don't kill people. Religion doesn't kill people. People kill people. Just like motorcycles aren't inherently dangerous, just (some of) the people on them.
You'd best get your new sneakers on and drink the Cool-Aid if you want to ride the comet ;-)

2 Corinthians 10:4 (Amplified Bible)

4For the weapons of our warfare are not physical [weapons of flesh and blood], but they are mighty before God for the overthrow and destruction of strongholds,

sheepofblue · 09-27-2005, 1:48 PM

+1 figment a great bit of wisdom. I realize my sheeply ways and try to minimize how much I will have to apologize for. On the forgiving front

I realize my own debts are much more than anothers (so I will likely need to be the receiver

)

luvtolean · 09-27-2005, 2:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esoteric

Actually, that's like the no guns argument. Guns don't kill people. Religion doesn't kill people. People kill people. Just like motorcycles aren't inherently dangerous, just (some of) the people on them.
You'd best get your new sneakers on and drink the Cool-Aid if you want to ride the comet ;-)

Bwahaha..well said.

Very good analogy too, especially for a heathen.

ER · 09-27-2005, 2:07 PM

In Biblical terms I believe judgement implies a verdict, not just an opinion. You can tell someone that he or she is wrong and base your opinion on the Bible. That's not passing judgement on the person. When God judges His people, that implies that He will decide their fate.

Homosexuality, adultery, and sexual immorality are clearly defined as sin in the Bible. In fact, there's a certain significance attached to that type of sin:

1st Corinthians 6:18-20 - Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

So the rules are set. If I were to go to a church that openly embraces this type of sin (encouraging it, not simply accepting those who practice it in an attempt to witness to them) and tell the pastor that he is wrong, I wouldn't be judging him; I could back up my opinion by referencing the Bible. If I issued some sort of a punishment or verdict on him, then I would be playing the role of the Judge, which is reserved for God.

I think Matthew 7 1-2 is used all the time by people in a Christian context who want to say, "Don't tell me I'm right or wrong because you're judging me", despite acting directly against what the Bible teaches. That could be fueled on by Christians who like to point out the sins and faults in the lives of others without first considering those in their own lives (look at verses 3-5 in Matthew 7 - "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.).

luvtolean · 09-27-2005, 2:09 PM

That's your interpretation of the Bible. (and admittedly several other's)

Where does the Bible specifically say homosexuality is "immoral"?

nedro · 09-27-2005, 2:11 PM

If the message is to be a good person instead of an evil person, I'm all for it. But do you guys really believe in this dribble? Are you all that self important that you must continue on after death? How very pathetic.

Baketech · 09-27-2005, 2:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BDA116

Waitaminute.............what are you guys talking about with regards to Santa Claus not being real?
If you don't believe Santa is real, I'll kick your ass.

Yep...Santa is real, why else would Bush want to drill in ANWR? To take his oil, silly....

luvtolean · 09-27-2005, 2:12 PM

As far as judging I propose to you condemning this type of behavior through politics (such as that outrageous proposal to amend the Constitution to ban a right), protest, and even bumper stickers is a verdict.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=verdict

This is to say nothing of the terrorists who bomb abortion clinics in the "name of God". Or promote homophobic activities or protests.

nedro · 09-27-2005, 2:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baketech

Yep...Santa is real, why else would Bush want to drill in ANWR? To take his oil, silly....

My dislexia must be kicking in. At first glance, I thought this was about necrofelia (sp?) and the late Mr. Sadat.

luvtolean · 09-27-2005, 2:16 PM

BTW, here come the Soddom and Gomorrah verses.

BDA116 · 09-27-2005, 2:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvtolean

Where does the Bible specifically say homosexuality is "immoral"?

If you want specific Bible verses, Leviticus 18:22 states: Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
Also Leviticus 20:13 states: If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

But what do I know, I don't believe in the Bible.

phobiaphobe · 09-27-2005, 2:20 PM

I don't understand how the religious expect to convert or influence the non-religious by quoting bible verses. Seems kinda futile doesn't it?

ER · 09-27-2005, 2:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvtolean

As far as judging I propose to you condemning this type of behavior through politics (such as that outrageous proposal to amend the Constitution to ban a right), protest, and even bumper stickers is a verdict.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=verdict

This is to say nothing of the terrorists who bomb abortion clinics in the "name of God". Or promote homophobic activities or protests.

I saw this and wanted to respond before the thread takes off since it looks busy in here.

I figured the reference to homosexuality might invoke an emotional response since it's such a sensitive subject. Making the statement that it is wrong according to the Bible isn't judgement. That doesn't decide the fate of those who practice it. It's simply reading what the Bible has to say about it and then making an informed decision based on that. Furthermore - and this is the most important part!! - that doesn't imply hatred towards anyone who does practice it.

Theft is wrong by the Bible. If you steal and I say you're wrong, I don't hate you for it, nor can I impose a judgement on you (i.e. throw you in jail). I can simply come to you -- out of love as I should -- and tell you that what you are doing is wrong. Make sense?

Keep in mind that there is and is NOT a time for unsolicited opinions. Christians can easily get out of line by broad, sweeping statements towards groups of people. If it isn't spoken out of love then it shouldn't be said. The fact that we don't always do that is most likely the reason that Christian opinions aren't well received when they ARE spoken out of love.

Obviously this addresses those who bomb abortion clinics and such -- the Bible doesn't make the case for doing something like that and it's difficult to say that it's done out of love.

ER · 09-27-2005, 2:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvtolean

BTW, here come the Soddom and Gomorrah verses.

If you already know them then why do you ask??

BDA116 · 09-27-2005, 2:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

I don't understand how the religious expect to convert or influence the non-religious by quoting bible verses. Seems kinda futile doesn't it?

I'm not expecting anything. He asked, I gave. That is all.

BDA116 · 09-27-2005, 2:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baketech

Yep...Santa is real, why else would Bush want to drill in ANWR? To take his oil, silly....

Santa has oil? Let's invade him and overthrow his regime. Those little elves can't be very good fighters, can they?
We need to add to our empirical stockpile to keep driving our gas prices down, just as we have done with Iraq.

phobiaphobe · 09-27-2005, 2:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BDA116

I'm not expecting anything. He asked, I gave. That is all.

I submitted my post before I saw yours there. Wasn't directed towards you.

ER · 09-27-2005, 2:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

I don't understand how the religious expect to convert or influence the non-religious by quoting bible verses. Seems kinda futile doesn't it?

If this is for me, I'm not trying to convert anyone. The topic of the thread was judgement in a Biblical context and I use Scripture on which to base my opinion.

luvtolean · 09-27-2005, 2:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ER

If you already know them then why do you ask??

Because I think Sodom and Gomorrah was a very complicated situation.

Another day I want to go look up those versus by BDA (not because I doubt them, just want to read the context) as they are direct and simple (not to mention contradict Matthew), but I have to hit the road.

Later guys, have fun.

phobiaphobe · 09-27-2005, 2:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ER

If this is for me, I'm not trying to convert anyone. The topic of the thread was judgement in a Biblical context and I use Scripture on which to base my opinion.

It really wasn't intended for anyone in particular... These type threads usually end up with the various sects of Christians slinging bible quotes at the atheists and co. I just don't see how that can possibly influence the debate one way or another. It won't hold any relevance to that audience.

Edit: in the context of this thread, I guess I'm off-topic. Nevermind.

ER · 09-27-2005, 2:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvtolean

Because I think Sodom and Gomorrah was a very complicated situation.

Another day I want to go look up those versus by BDA (not because I doubt them, just want to read the context) as they are direct and simple (not to mention contradict Matthew), but I have to hit the road.

Later guys, have fun.

A few more:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NIV): "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters, nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

Romans 1:24-27 - Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

figment · 09-27-2005, 2:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

It really wasn't intended for anyone in particular... These type threads usually end up with the various sects of Christians slinging bible quotes at the atheists and co. I just don't see how that can possibly influence the debate one way or another. It won't hold any relevance to that audience.

Edit: in the context of this thread, I guess I'm off-topic. Nevermind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ER

... The topic of the thread was judgement in a Biblical context and I use Scripture on which to base my opinion.

...