Contradictions in the Bible

figment · 09-27-2005, 5:28 PM

In another thread there was an assertion that a contradiction could exist So I thought I'd explore what is current on ifidels.org, one of my favorite research sites

Intersting reading
infidels.org vs. carm.org

phobiaphobe · 09-27-2005, 5:51 PM

How about the biggest contradiction of all: (as identified by George Carlin)

God's divine plan.

If God has a master plan, and fate is pre-determined, then why do we pray? Are we hoping to change the outcome of the Divine Plan?

figment · 09-27-2005, 6:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

How about the biggest contradiction of all: (as identified by George Carlin)

God's divine plan.

If God has a master plan, and fate is pre-determined, then why do we pray? Are we hoping to change the outcome of the Divine Plan?

Thats a GREAT question. It is related to a few other concepts such as good and evil and freedom of choice. These are all tied up in your question. We've discussed them previously, but basicly your question concerns the nature of time as well as prayer. Since we are INSIDE time and God is not, His perspective is complete and ours in only partial. The fact that He knows what we are going to do next has NO influence on our free will or our need to pray. Prayer is not just the asking for things we need or the needs of others, but is also a way of keeping up with Gods plan for us.

nedro · 09-27-2005, 6:50 PM

That is such Horseshit!
If he already knows, why continue unless it is for his amusement. And if that is the case, he's no better than Osama Bin Laden.

phobiaphobe · 09-27-2005, 6:54 PM

Ok so if a family member is mortally ill, why would I pray for God to help him / her when I know that my prayer has absolutely no bearing on the outcome?

figment · 09-27-2005, 7:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

Ok so if a family member is mortally ill, why would I pray for God to help him / her when I know that my prayer has absolutely no bearing on the outcome?

why wouldnt it? Think about it....

phobiaphobe · 09-27-2005, 7:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by figment

why wouldnt it? ...

THe decision has already been pre-determined. I wouldn't have a say in it. What will praying do?

figment · 09-27-2005, 7:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

THe decision has already been pre-determined. I wouldn't have a say in it. What will praying do?

LOL its not pre-determined, it's already known by Him. The choice is YOURS. BIG difference.

nedro · 09-27-2005, 7:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by figment

LOL its not pre-determined, it's already known by Him. The choice is YOURS. BIG difference.

What a spin Doctor. Not predetermined but known. I believe that would be an oximoron.

ND4SPD · 09-27-2005, 7:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nedro

What a spin Doctor. Not predetermined but known. I believe that would be an oximoron.

How so? Knowing what someone will do is not the same as telling them what to do.

phobiaphobe · 09-27-2005, 7:32 PM

If He knows the outcome, it is pre-determined.

ER · 09-27-2005, 7:35 PM

Not at all. He knows the choices you're going to make, but you don't. Think of it like watching a DVD. You can fast-forward, rewind...skip to the end if you want. You can watch the whole thing and know the results when you watch it again. The people "living" in the movie still make the choices they do, despite not knowing the outcome.

God transcends time while we're bound to it. That's part of the concept of the great I AM - He IS....1000 years ago, today, and 1000 years from now. It can tie your mind in a knot.

dB · 09-27-2005, 7:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

If He knows the outcome, it is pre-determined.

Not if He gives you true freedom of choice.

figment · 09-27-2005, 7:45 PM

without freedom of choice there can be no good or evil.

phobiaphobe · 09-27-2005, 7:46 PM

This is one of my favorites:

The number of beasts in the ark

GEN 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
GEN 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, GEN 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

Ok then.

http://www.enviroliteracy.org/article.php/58.html

http://www.canadianbiodiversity.mcgi...glish/species/

So let's assume there are 1.75 million different namedspecies, and as many as 20 million total species of "beast" on our earth. Even if half of them were aquatic (therefore not needing a 40 day boat ride) that would require a pretty big effing boat.

phobiaphobe · 09-27-2005, 7:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ER

Not at all. He knows the choices you're going to make, but you don't. Think of it like watching a DVD. You can fast-forward, rewind...skip to the end if you want. You can watch the whole thing and know the results when you watch it again. The people "living" in the movie still make the choices they do, despite not knowing the outcome.

God transcends time while we're bound to it. That's part of the concept of the great I AM - He IS....1000 years ago, today, and 1000 years from now. It can tie your mind in a knot.

This analogy doesn't help me at all. The movie has already been made. The people "living" in the movie can pray, but that won't change the ending. WHy pray?

phobiaphobe · 09-27-2005, 7:49 PM

GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

This must have taken old Adam a couple hundred lifetimes.

figment · 09-27-2005, 7:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

If He knows the outcome, it is pre-determined.

I'll re insert the link you obviously never read.

freedom of choice

phobiaphobe · 09-27-2005, 7:57 PM

Yes I read that, but it still doesn't make any sense. If He knows what will happen, in all His omnipotence, then I can't influence the outcome through prayer.

phobiaphobe · 09-27-2005, 7:57 PM

I'm going home now. I'll pick it up tomorrow.

Bonsoir

figment · 09-27-2005, 7:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

This is one of my favorites:

The number of beasts in the ark

GEN 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
GEN 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, GEN 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

Ok then.

http://www.enviroliteracy.org/article.php/58.html

http://www.canadianbiodiversity.mcgi...glish/species/

So let's assume there are 1.75 million different namedspecies, and as many as 20 million total species of "beast" on our earth. Even if half of them were aquatic (therefore not needing a 40 day boat ride) that would require a pretty big effing boat.

The ark took about 120 years to build. Noah was 480 years old when he began the work and he had the help of his wife, three sons, and his son's wives. He probably hired local people to help in the construction.
The dimensions of the ark have a ratio of six to one. The Ark was six times longer than it was wide. This is the best ratio for modern ship building. Model stability tests have shown that the design is stable for waves up to 200 feet high and that the ark could have rotated 90 degrees and still righted itself.
The volume of the ark would be 450 feet long by 75 feet wide by 45 feet high. This equals 1,518,750 cubic feet and is comparable to 569 modern railroad boxcars. Therefore each boxcar, by comparison, would be 1,518,750 ÷ 569, or 2,669 cubic feet of space. The average size of an animal on the earth is smaller than a cat. But, just to keep it safe let's consider the average size of an animal to be a sheep. The average double deck stock car holds 240 sheep. The Ark capacity would be about 569 x 240 equaling 136,560 animals of that size. However, that still is not accurate for our needs. Since most birds, reptiles, and amphibians are much smaller, let's double the boxcar capacity for them. Therefore, the boxcars could each hold 480 different kinds of birds, reptiles, amphibians.
Noah had to take two or seven of every kind of animal on the earth. Though it is not really known exactly what is meant by a biblical kind, it is generally considered to be animals that are fertile within their own groups. Any dog can breed with any dog, therefore, dogs are one kind. It would only be necessary to bring representatives of each kind since the parents could produce offspring that would carry the genetic information for all variations within their kind.

(pasted from carm.org)

ND4SPD · 09-27-2005, 7:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

This must have taken old Adam a couple hundred lifetimes.

Old Adam lived to be some 900 years old, IIRC. I think he had time

figment · 09-27-2005, 8:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

I'm going home now. I'll pick it up tomorrow.

Bonsoir

See ya tamorra.

ND4SPD · 09-27-2005, 8:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

Yes I read that, but it still doesn't make any sense. If He knows what will happen, in all His omnipotence, then I can't influence the outcome through prayer.

Sure you can. Him knowing the outcome of what's about to happen doesn't mean He's got anything to do with it. Hence the freedom of choice. He knows what we're going to do/choose, but doesn't force us to do either choice A or choice B.

ozthis · 09-27-2005, 8:15 PM

the bible is one big contradiction....and religion has been the cause of more deaths than any plague

and i agree praying has no bearing on the out come. I think i will go finish my letter to santa..

figment · 09-27-2005, 8:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

Yes I read that, but it still doesn't make any sense. If He knows what will happen, in all His omnipotence, then I can't influence the outcome through prayer.

Is He controlling your prayer? No. Does He know that you will pray? Yes. Can He intervene on your behalf as long as it aligns with His plan? Yes. Prayer and Fellowship are part of knowing Gods plan.

There's a term "accidents" used in this concept. These are things that happen which will not impact His plan in any way. I Think St. Augustine first used this as an example in his discussions on freedom of choice some 1700+ years ago. See "Confessions of St Augustine" for the real mind bender.

ER · 09-28-2005, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

This analogy doesn't help me at all. The movie has already been made. The people "living" in the movie can pray, but that won't change the ending. WHy pray?

Even in the Christian family itself the debate over free-will verses pre-determination goes on. Some believe that everything is pre-determined, so Christ essentially died only for those that God chose to be saved. Others believe that, despite knowing all the choices that we will make, God still leaves us with a free will to make them (and to suffer the consequences of bad ones). In that aspect, Christ died for all, but only those who choose to accept him will be saved. Each side can reference passages in the Bible to support their claim of course, so the debate is a good one.

When I've studied the Bible, it's clear to me that I have to choose Christ as my Savior for salvation. I see the benefits of making good choices and the consequences of making bad ones. The fact that God knows what I'm going to do doesn't change my ability to make the choice. He transcends time and thus can see the future, past, and present outside of the boundaries of time itself (which really means that to Him there is no future, past, and present). But He's not forcing us to make the choices we make. I don't believe it's possible to have a true love-relationship if the choices are made for you.

nedro · 09-28-2005, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by figment

Is He controlling your prayer? No. Does He know that you will pray? Yes. Can He intervene on your behalf as long as it aligns with His plan? Yes. Prayer and Fellowship are part of knowing Gods plan.

There's a term "accidents" used in this concept. These are things that happen which will not impact His plan in any way. I Think St. Augustine first used this as an example in his discussions on freedom of choice some 1700+ years ago. See "Confessions of St Augustine" for the real mind bender.

If he's going to intervene on your behalf as it aligns with his plans, HE'S GOING TO DO IT ANYWAY REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU DO! I see no freedom of choice there. As long as we're thinking along the lines you've proposed.

phobiaphobe · 09-28-2005, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by figment

The ark took about 120 years to build. Noah was 480 years old when he began the work and he had the help of his wife, three sons, and his son's wives. He probably hired local people to help in the construction.
The dimensions of the ark have a ratio of six to one. The Ark was six times longer than it was wide. This is the best ratio for modern ship building. Model stability tests have shown that the design is stable for waves up to 200 feet high and that the ark could have rotated 90 degrees and still righted itself.
The volume of the ark would be 450 feet long by 75 feet wide by 45 feet high. This equals 1,518,750 cubic feet and is comparable to 569 modern railroad boxcars. Therefore each boxcar, by comparison, would be 1,518,750 ÷ 569, or 2,669 cubic feet of space. The average size of an animal on the earth is smaller than a cat. But, just to keep it safe let's consider the average size of an animal to be a sheep. The average double deck stock car holds 240 sheep. The Ark capacity would be about 569 x 240 equaling 136,560 animals of that size. However, that still is not accurate for our needs. Since most birds, reptiles, and amphibians are much smaller, let's double the boxcar capacity for them. Therefore, the boxcars could each hold 480 different kinds of birds, reptiles, amphibians.
Noah had to take two or seven of every kind of animal on the earth. Though it is not really known exactly what is meant by a biblical kind, it is generally considered to be animals that are fertile within their own groups. Any dog can breed with any dog, therefore, dogs are one kind. It would only be necessary to bring representatives of each kind since the parents could produce offspring that would carry the genetic information for all variations within their kind.

(pasted from carm.org)

Even with that extremely weak explanation, 569 box cars each holding 480 animals only equals 136560 species if you assume 2 each. With 1.75 million named species, even if we assumed that 2/3rds are aquatic, that still leaves out 310213 animals. There might be another 15 million unnamed species.

I'm pretty sure the animals wouldn't all stack neatly on top of one another like cuddly little bricks. And I'm pretty sure you can't toss 480 different animals in a boxcar and not have at least half of them die. Better X1000 the size of that 450 foot long ship for all of the cages, food, the staff of 5000 and their quarters, the crew of 500, and the tens of thousands of tonnes of supplies.

When you use a little logic it starts to sound more and more absurd.

BDA116 · 09-28-2005, 12:23 PM

Phobe, according to that article you sourced, the vast majority of those species are insects. Only 4500 are mammals. Considering you could fit two of each insect on the planet in a couple suitcases, which argument does that help? Another big chunk of those species are aquatic, as well as a large chunk of flying animals. So the overall number of animals that would require space on the ark is much smaller, and very few of them would be large animals. Also, that is current species. We don't know how many were around back then.
Just adding to your logical representation of it all.