[esoteric]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...798944,00.html

Have at it!

[Proto]

Judge not lest ye be judged


Bottom of the page

Here's alink to the article in full: http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

An Abstract:

Large-scale surveys show dramatic declines in religiosity in favor of secularization in the developed democracies. Popular acceptance of evolutionary science correlates negatively with levels of religiosity, and the United States is the only prosperous nation where the majority absolutely believes in a creator and evolutionary science is unpopular. Abundant data is available on rates of societal dysfunction and health in the first world. Cross-national comparisons of highly differing rates of religiosity and societal conditions form a mass epidemiological experiment that can be used to test whether high rates of belief in and worship of a creator are necessary for high levels of social health. Data correlations show that in almost all regards the highly secular democracies consistently enjoy low rates of societal dysfunction, while pro-religious and anti-evolution America performs poorly.

[Kuss929]

My invisible friend is better than your invisible friend.

[nedro]

Originally Posted by Kuss929

My invisible friend is better than your invisible friend.

And saddly...that's what it all comes down to. But the religious freeks love that because fantasy and imagination can't be refuted.

[Proto]

Originally Posted by nedro

And saddly...that's what it all comes down to. But the religious freeks love that because fantasy and imagination can't be refuted.

It's called "Faith" (and no, not the song by George Michael)

[nedro]

Originally Posted by Proto

It's called "Faith" (and no, not the song by George Michael)

Oh, I get it. Faith. Yes that's it. Faith. Like the guy on PCP having faith in his god given wings.
Thanks Proto.
Are we actually on the same side on this one?

[ozthis]

Originally Posted by nedro

And saddly...that's what it all comes down to. But the religious freeks love that because fantasy and imagination can't be refuted.

Religion Is Myth-Information

[sheepofblue]

Originally Posted by nedro

And saddly...that's what it all comes down to. But the religious freeks love that because fantasy and imagination can't be refuted.

Sadly (<-correct spelling) your posts have a lot of hate for one who is not religious. I am sorry if I stirred you up this morning, my intent was to share a thought with like minded people that I thought might be nice. It was not to kick off a firestorm. I even put it in the a place created for the topic. Also if you prefer to refer to me as a freak, please have the courtesy to spell it correctly

[luvtolean]

Al-Jazerra--->USA = UK Press--->Christian religions.

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by nedro

And saddly...that's what it all comes down to. But the religious freeks love that because fantasy and imagination can't be refuted.

If you don't think prayer and faith work, I'm here to tell you, you couldn't be more wrong.

Now, are the effects of these things due to divine intervention?

Even if (maybe for you Ned, substitute "though" for "if") you answer no, that doesn't mean prayer and faith lack power.

[esoteric]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

If you don't think prayer and faith work, I'm here to tell you, you couldn't be more wrong.
Now, are the effects of these things due to divine intervention?
Even if (maybe for you Ned, substitute "though" for "if") you answer no, that doesn't mean prayer and faith lack power.

Well, if these things "work" but their "working" is not a product of divinity, they you really are talking about psychology/the placebo effect/voices in your head, and probability/statistics, etc. and not anything about prayer itself. Any other activity could replace prayer (at the onset of a persons "spiritual development") and the "working" should be indentical.

[nedro]

Originally Posted by sheepofblue

Sadly (<-correct spelling) your posts have a lot of hate for one who is not religious. I am sorry if I stirred you up this morning, my intent was to share a thought with like minded people that I thought might be nice. It was not to kick off a firestorm. I even put it in the a place created for the topic. Also if you prefer to refer to me as a freak, please have the courtesy to spell it correctly

I sorry that you concider yourself a religious freek. But there is no hate in live and let live. But there is nothing but hate in organized religion. What is the number one thing Christians are suposed to do? Spread the word of God. And how has it been done? I'll let you think about that one before mentioning things like the American Indians.

[ER]

Originally Posted by nedro

I sorry that you concider yourself a religious freek. But there is no hate in live and let live. But there is nothing but hate in organized religion. What is the number one thing Christians are supposed to do? Spread the word of God. And how has it been done? I'll let you think about that one before mentioning things like the American Indians.

What the Bible tells believers to do and what they have done aren't always the same thing. Christ told his disciples to make believers out of all nations, but the message is spread through love, not through force. While I'm sure you can find plenty of people in history who have done things in the name of Christ that are NOT Christ-like, that doesn't define what God wants for His people. Furthermore, people can say and do whatever they want while claiming to be a Christian, but the condition of their heart and their actions define what they really are.

The last I heard, 86% of the people in this country claimed to be Christian. But if that were really true, would we have the problems that we have? You can claim to be whatever you want to but your actions and your heart define it.

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by esoteric

Well, if these things "work" but their "working" is not a product of divinity, they you really are talking about psychology/the placebo effect/voices in your head, and probability/statistics, etc. and not anything about prayer itself.

No, not placebo. Not even close. More like meditation. It's the quieting of one's conscious mind when you pray. If you're in a highly stressful situation and you do this, it can be immensely helpful. Can a prayer be replaced by other things? IMO, absolutely. But that doesn't take away from prayer IMO. It works. No matter the reason, it works.

Originally Posted by ER

The last I heard, 86% of the people in this country claimed to be Christian. But if that were really true, would we have the problems that we have? You can claim to be whatever you want to but your actions and your heart define it.

Don't be absurd. Christians are no better or different than other people.

Like it or not, our system of laws is based on the Bible. If you're a law abiding citizen, you're pretty much a "good Christian".

[nedro]

Originally Posted by ER

What the Bible tells believers to do and what they have done aren't always the same thing. Christ told his disciples to make believers out of all nations, but the message is spread through love, not through force. While I'm sure you can find plenty of people in history who have done things in the name of Christ that are NOT Christ-like, that doesn't define what God wants for His people. Furthermore, people can say and do whatever they want while claiming to be a Christian, but the condition of their heart and their actions define what they really are.

The last I heard, 86% of the people in this country claimed to be Christian. But if that were really true, would we have the problems that we have? You can claim to be whatever you want to but your actions and your heart define it.

I love your last sentence and agree with it. I guess I'm Christian because I believe that he actually was a man that lived on this Earth.
Some say you need religion to be a good person. I believe if you're good to one another, that you're a good person.

[figment]

Originally Posted by sheepofblue

Sadly (<-correct spelling) your posts have a lot of hate for one who is not religious. I am sorry if I stirred you up this morning, my intent was to share a thought with like minded people that I thought might be nice. It was not to kick off a firestorm. I even put it in the a place created for the topic. Also if you prefer to refer to me as a freak, please have the courtesy to spell it correctly

Take comfort. If you are not under attack, you're doing something wrong
Christians have been persecuted since the Church was formed but we can not trade insults. The world can fight against carnal things, but it yields like a vapor to the Spirit.

[ER]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

Don't be absurd. Christians are no better or different than other people.

Like it or not, our system of laws is based on the Bible. If you're a law abiding citizen, you're pretty much a "good Christian".

If 86% of the people in this country felt with all of their heart that murder, theft, rape, and what-not were sins against God and they were doing their best to live their lives accordingly, wouldn't that make a big difference? Again, your heart and actions define what you truly are, not what you say you are or what you see from other people who say they are.

Yes, many of our laws are Bible-based, but not all of the "laws" of the Bible are in our laws. I'm not saying they should or shouldn't be - that's another thread in itself.

[luvtolean]

Nope.

Plenty of devoutly religious people commit all of the sins.

People who murder are not "normal". They may have been abused somehow. Many have mental illnesses and/or drug addiction.

These problems don't go away by reading the Bible and having faith in the Plan.

I believe the priest that molests a little boy really does believe in God. And he really knows what he does is wrong. But he's got other issues, weaknesses, that make him a man. And for whatever reason, he's not able to control his terrible desires.

[esoteric]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

Like it or not, our system of laws is based on the Bible. If you're a law abiding citizen, you're pretty much a "good Christian".

Not even close. I'm a law abiding citizen, +/-, but I will never EVER approximate a "good Christian" OR a "bad Christian".

[WetShrub]

WWCD? What Would Conq Do?

[nedro]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

Nope.

Plenty of devoutly religious people commit all of the sins.

People who murder are not "normal". They may have been abused somehow. Many have mental illnesses and/or drug addiction.

These problems don't go away by reading the Bible and having faith in the Plan.

I believe the priest that molests a little boy really does believe in God. And he really knows what he does is wrong. But he's got other issues, weaknesses, that make him a man. And for whatever reason, he's not able to control his terrible desires.

I was reading something on this subject regarding homosexuals becoming priests. Their take was that of a feeling of guilt from their families that draws them to the teachings of Catholics and their desire to somehow be saved. But that their desires overcome them and they start abusing.
I am not putting a lable on homosexuals. And this probably isn't even 1% of the number of homosexuals. But then again, if you counted the number of priests in the entire world, it probably wouldn't equil 1% of all of the homosexuals in the world.

[phobiaphobe]

I hypothesized that in their twisted mind they felt they remained celibate if they only bedded little boys.