[esoteric]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12082681/

[abtech]

Originally Posted by esoteric

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12082681/

[Repeater]

The doors softparade says it all "you cannot petition the lord with prayer" good song.

[abtech]

Please Lord, help Mary P. have a successful surgery and not have any complications.

I don't think that's how it works . . .

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by abtech

Please Lord, help Mary P. have a successful surgery and not have any complications.

I don't think that's how it works . . .

Yeah, no matter your religious preference...or antipathy, you gotta agree that "study" is rediculous.

[Scout]

Science, he said, "is not designed to study the supernatural."

This says it all.




Unrelated: Watched Penn and Tellers Bullshit on "Ghost Buster shows".

Funniest thing I've seen in a long time, must see!

[ND4SPD]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

Yeah, no matter your religious preference...or antipathy, you gotta agree that "study" is rediculous.

To say the least... And I'll leave it at that.

[jaim]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

Yeah, no matter your religious preference...or antipathy, you gotta agree that "study" is rediculous.

Actually I don't agree. Studies like should be happening. Maybe then it will get people to realize that belief alone is not enough.

[luvtolean]

Jaim, if someone believes in prayer, which I do, even though I'm kinda unique in that I believe it works for many reasons, and not just the Supernatural, there's a bit more to it than what they did in this study.

Post #4.

[ND4SPD]

Luke 4:12

Jesus answered, "It says: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test'"

[jaim]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

Jaim, if someone believes in prayer, which I do, even though I'm kinda unique in that I believe it works for many reasons, and not just the Supernatural, there's a bit more to it than what they did in this study.

Post #4.

I don't think they gave us all the information from the study. Such as what were the people being prayed for told, etc. I will admit that believing you will heal is actually a big component to healing. Witch doctors as well as licensed MDs get patients to believe in the treatment. But I don't think belief alone is enough for some ailments. Medicin's, surgury, etc. do play a significant roll as well. It's all about the mind not some external entity.

[Gerhardus501]

It is time to study the Bible my friends!

Jesus died on the Cross for our sins and through His wounds we are healed!

The gift of healing does not lie in the hands of the person doing the praying but rather in the heart of the person receiving. Without faith it is impossible to receive anything from God. It is there for the taking and it helps if the following are true:

*Being born again (saved by the grace of God through the blood of His Son Jesus)
*Having a well developed relationship with God the Father
*Believe in "If you believe it, you will see it"
*Love is also the answer to all things.

The Bible is clear on the fact that without the Holy Spirit no one will or can understand God, therefore these ridicules arguments. Once saved by the grace of God and having a relationship with Him anyone can and will have the insight to know what it is really about!

God loves all of you and He is knocking at your heart - please open and let Him in, take the chance it is well worth it!

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by ND4SPD

Luke 4:12 Jesus answered, : 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test'"

Jesus said "Pray for anything in my name and you will receive it."

Originally Posted by Gerhardus501

It is time to study the Bible my friends!

Perhaps you could first show that your Bible is anything other than fable, fiction and fraud.

Jesus died on the Cross for our sins and through His wounds we are healed!

Present verifiable objective evidence for this claim please, and no, you can't use the bible to prove that the Bible is true.

Without faith it is impossible to receive anything from God.

Faith is nothing more than a way of lying to yourself when the evidence doesn't say what you want it to say.

It is there for the taking and it helps if the following are true:

*Being born again (saved by the grace of God through the blood of His Son Jesus)
*Having a well developed relationship with God the Father
*Believe in "If you believe it, you will see it"
*Love is also the answer to all things.

So in other words, in order to see the evidence of your god....you have to already be a believer.

God loves all of you.........

http://a123.g.akamai.net/f/123/12465...-dc.jpg?size=l
Including her??


Have you been to Darfur lately?

[Gerhardus501]

Hi pladecalvo

I see that you are online now.

No more arguments my friend, something must have hurt you very much to allow you to make the statement you do.

But do not worry, once you find the love of the Father you will understand.

Yes, you have to be a believer to understand the Bible and God.

I see you have no bikes, have you been a biker or what is your passion in life?

[ghbzorro]

Selfish Gene by Richard Hawkins explains it all. Don't read the book reviews. Read the book and then reach your own conclusions.

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by Gerhardus501

No more arguments my friend, something must have hurt you very much to allow you to make the statement you do.

Not at all friend....it's just logic and reason that allows me to make the statements that I do.

But do not worry, once you find the love of the Father you will understand.

I suppose that a Hindu might make the same claim regarding Brahma.

I see you have no bikes, have you been a biker or what is your passion in life?

I've been a biker for about 40 years and until 5 years ago had never been without a bike since I was about 17 years old. My last bike was a Honda Pan European but when I moved to Spain to live 5 years ago, I had to send it back to the UK and sell it (I cried like a baby ) because bike insurance here is just too expensive.

I now have a Linhai 260cc scooter which I don't class as a bike but I do use it a lot here. It's shite......but it's better than not having two wheels!

[esmarts]

Pretty funny someone did a test on some thing like that

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by esmarts

Pretty funny someone did a test on some thing like that

Something like what?

[sheepofblue]

Personally I feel very inadequate to "ask" for anything. However when the day of the big BBQ comes I will gladly ask for mercy for someone else since I know what I deserve (the BBQ).

As to the study... I don't see any value added.

[lanbrown]

Originally Posted by Gerhardus501

The gift of healing does not lie in the hands of the person doing the praying but rather in the heart of the person receiving. Without faith it is impossible to receive anything from God. It is there for the taking and it helps if the following are true:

Better look at that study. I would say they had too much faith and put too much of it in that god will be looking out for them.

It amazes me that people will pray for someone that has a serious illness for a full recovery. Didn’t god give them that illness because god has a plan for them? If you are religious, just take the lumps, after all, god has everything planned out for you.

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by lanbrown

It amazes me that people will pray for someone that has a serious illness for a full recovery. Didn’t god give them that illness because god has a plan for them? If you are religious, just take the lumps, after all, god has everything planned out for you.

Good point! It seems they only want to accept the good things regarding the 'will' of their god. When serious illness strikes they rush of to hospital to seek a cure from the sciences that so many of them despise. Why don't they just stay at home and pray? So much for 'faith' eh?

[MadRussian]

Originally Posted by Gerhardus501

It is time to study the Bible my friends!

Jesus died on the Cross for our sins and through His wounds we are healed!

The gift of healing does not lie in the hands of the person doing the praying but rather in the heart of the person receiving. Without faith it is impossible to receive anything from God. It is there for the taking and it helps if the following are true:

*Being born again (saved by the grace of God through the blood of His Son Jesus)
*Having a well developed relationship with God the Father
*Believe in "If you believe it, you will see it"
*Love is also the answer to all things.

The Bible is clear on the fact that without the Holy Spirit no one will or can understand God, therefore these ridicules arguments. Once saved by the grace of God and having a relationship with Him anyone can and will have the insight to know what it is really about!

God loves all of you and He is knocking at your heart - please open and let Him in, take the chance it is well worth it!

If thats true then why every time I go to church the pastor has a list of sick people in the hospital that we all pray for at the end of the sermon?????

[MadRussian]

Originally Posted by esmarts

Pretty funny someone did a test on some thing like that

Yeah but whats sad is that people stop taking medications and pay thousands of dollars to "spiritual healers" because they have a disease that we currently don't have a cure for. And when they die the quacks just claim that those patients did not have enough faith or their will was not strong enough. And if the patient go into remission they claim the credit.

[dr256]

What a pointless bit of research.

Given that there is no way to either prove, or disprove the existence of any form of higher being how can you even begin to quantify the effects of prayer?

The results, whichever way they go - and they could have gone either way as the chance or someone getting better or worse is entirely dependent on the selection group, their medical circumstances and their genetic disposition - will only add to the endless rubbish spouted by both believers and disbelievers as some addition to bolster each sides respective arguments.

There is only one thing eternal in this universe - and thats the complete and utter boll*cks surrounding this whole issue.

[DragonRider]

Before the Sermon the Pastor mentions people that need prayers so that we can all pry for them, because it helps us, those that love the people being prayed for. God decides, without our help, who will live and die, who will be succesful and who will not, etc. This study is ridiculous, someone else already said it....We do not test God, we have faith that he will heal those he sees fit, that he may use them at another time to glorify him.

[Gerhardus501]

Originally Posted by DragonRider

Before the Sermon the Pastor mentions people that need prayers so that we can all pry for them, because it helps us, those that love the people being prayed for. God decides, without our help, who will live and die, who will be successful and who will not, etc. This study is ridiculous, someone else already said it....We do not test God, we have faith that he will heal those he sees fit, that he may use them at another time to glorify him.

Wonderful to read your statement. At last someone that has respect for God!
The love of the Father is what changes the world and the sad part of it all is that does not matter how "holy" you are or how "bad" you are or whether you believe or not, the only problem is that all needs Jesus. I bring you good news, not news to argue about, but Good news that will set you free. If you do not like it, yes it is up to you to decide and God will never interfere with your free will. Good news, Jesus did it all, the way to God is paid for with His precious blood! It is your choice, if you do not like it leave it and stop the stupid arguments please, I mean really is there any sense in arguing about a God that you do not believe in? Arguing proofs to me that you really do believe and then God awaits you with great love to except you into His Kingdom!

[dr256]

Originally Posted by Gerhardus501

If you do not like it, yes it is up to you to decide and God will never interfere with your free will.

With the greatest respect. I don't think anyone would mind if it was God interfering.

But its not God is it, its those that claim to believe in God and claim to speak on its behalf that want to change what we can and cannot do. They lobby our governments, lie to our children, protest outside clinics, open museums based on a fallacy, persecute those who don't believe the same version of doctrine, etc etc.

And in many ways I agree what's the point of the debate? But until the creationists et al, stop trying to creep into our schools and poison our children's minds, until the lobbyists stop trying to dictate when a mother should have a child, until the priests stop trying to persecute you for your sexuality, I'm afraid I'm going to have to keeping attacking anyone who hides behind false prophets. You included.

[pladecalvo]

Well said dr.

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by Gerhardus501

It is your choice, if you do not like it leave it and stop the stupid arguments please,

From what you have written above I assume that you are saying that one can consciously CHOOSE to believe things. I've never been able to do that so I love to hear how you do it. I don’t think that it can be done, but you say that it can be done, so I'd be obliged if you would demonstrate your ability to 'choose to believe something' and explain what it is that you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say, “OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true? I suggested that you might demonstrate this ability to us here and now by consciously CHOOSING to believe that something such as leprechauns actually exist.

[Surffrog]

Originally Posted by dr256

With the greatest respect. I don't think anyone would mind if it was God interfering.

But its not God is it, its those that claim to believe in God and claim to speak on its behalf that want to change what we can and cannot do. They lobby our governments, lie to our children, protest outside clinics, open museums based on a fallacy, persecute those who don't believe the same version of doctrine, etc etc.

And in many ways I agree what's the point of the debate? But until the creationists et al, stop trying to creep into our schools and poison our children's minds, until the lobbyists stop trying to dictate when a mother should have a child, until the priests stop trying to persecute you for your sexuality, I'm afraid I'm going to have to keeping attacking anyone who hides behind false prophets. You included.

Good stuff Dr.