[sheepofblue]

An article with one solution to the judges that mistake freedom of religion with freedom from religion. Though the booing should have never happened.

[luvtolean]

Good for the judges, government prayer doesn't belong in a public school.

[phobiaphobe]

If you squint just a little bit, you could imagine that the article is about a Taliban school.

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

If you squint just a little bit, you could imagine that the article is about a Taliban school.

I have a simple test. If we were to switch God for Allah or Satan, and we were to do it, I judge what:

1) My reaction would be
2) The group's reaction would be

If either would have a negative reaction, IMO, it doesn't belong in public institutions.

If this was a prayer to Satan, you'd have every Holy Roller and his brother whining....

[BDA116]

There is a difference between a forced prayer by a government sanctioned body and a group of American citizens that want to freely practice their religion as protected by the Constitution, regardless of where that takes place.
Activist judges have skewed the Constitution. It's funny how only certain parts of it get whined about by certain types.

[luvtolean]

I think the judge ruled correctly in disallowing the prayer. I would be grossly offended if there was a prayer to Satan at my graduation. I wouldn't appreciate it if it was to Allah either. I'd raise Holy Hell...so to speak.

I also think it was within these kids' right to stand up and chant the Lord's Prayer.

[BDA116]

That's what I'm saying. Had the principal or someone else done it against the will of them all, then it would have been a problem. The individual students were within their rights, though.
Then again, I also think that allowing a group of students to have a few minutes of prayer before school starts in a classroom to themselves or some other such privacy is within their rights as well.

[luvtolean]

Definately, as long as it's optional.

I think a separate class for Catholics, Muslims, Protestants, Mormons...whatever is fine. And I mean publicly funded (meaning give them a room and a class period), as long as it's not a "hate" class. And prayer in that class would be fine too.

But not at the opening of a graduation...

[CBRVFR]

I have a simpler test:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

That's a two-edged sword. Rather than to prohibit all expressions of religion in public, which is clearly not the intent of the first amendment, it seems to me to be a better idea to allow much more expression of the various religions that make up the fabric of our great country.

Then, when the radical islamists, the animists, the satanists, and the TadeoBabaists want to have 5 minutes at all the graduation ceremonies in the country to, respectively, Declaim all Western influences, dance around asking the great goat in the sky for better manure, sacrifice a live chicken, or rev their Fireblades to 11,000 rpm, it should occur to everybody that public prayer is so meaningless and universally annoying that even Jesus took time to severely criticize it. (Matthew 6:5-7)

Too bad common sense and tolerance are neither widespread religious practice, considered common courtesy by the non-religious, or a product of our judicial system.

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by CBRVFR

I have a simpler test:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

That's a two-edged sword. Rather than to prohibit all expressions of religion in public, which is clearly not the intent of the first amendment, it seems to me to be a better idea to allow much more expression of the various religions that make up the fabric of our great country.

So what is your point, that a group, with members of the audience that clearly don't want to participate in a prayer, should be forced to because others, even the majority, want to pray?

I think a student should be able to attend a public school, and be free from religion.

Too bad common sense and tolerance are neither widespread religious practice, considered common courtesy by the non-religious, or a product of our judicial system.

Don't forget the one of the very least courteous groups there are, the religious.

I think the recitation of the Lord's Prayer, along with the booing, was quite inconsiderate. (though protected)

[phobiaphobe]

Best post ever. (CBRVFR)

[CBRVFR]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

So what is your point, that a group, with members of the audience that clearly don't want to participate in a prayer, should be forced to because others want to pray?

Listening to a group of people make a 2 minute recitation of their faith doesn't make one a participant. It's much less fair that the person who can't bear to hear such a recitation should be able to keep others from making it.

Originally Posted by luvtolean

I think a student should be able to attend a public school, and be free from religion.

Free from religion in what sense? Free from being made to participate or being forced to make a statement of faith or to endorse any religion in any way? Absolutely. Free from studying the historical influences of it on world history? That would be stupid. Free from hearing others expressing their faith? Nope. Free to RESTRICT others from expressing their faith? Not a chance.

I am of a minority religion, so I have experienced this first hand. My parrents grew up in an age where the Lord's prayer was recited in class, and they were made to participate. That was wrong. It didn't apply to me. I walked out of assemblies that crossed the line in school, and took **** for it from teachers. Guess what? I prevailed in the argument and lived through it. My team mates would often pray before a game or a wrestling match. I wouldn't think of stopping them, any more than it would be my place to interrrupt the ritualistic mumbo-jumbo at the Karate dojo.

Originally Posted by luvtolean

Don't forget the one of the very least courteous groups there are, the religious.

I agree, but so what? You just posted in NDD's thread about the lack of courtesy that is endemic in society.

(ahem).....sir.

[luvtolean]

Well, I guess we disagree, asshole.

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by CBRVFR

Free from being made to participate or being forced to make a statement of faith or to endorse any religion in any way? Absolutely.

Seriously, here's the rub, we interpret this key point differently.

I think a prayer to commence graduation, or for that matter, saying God in the pledge, is forcing people to participate in religion if they want to participate in the graduation or the recitation of the pledge.

Graduation is a big deal for many people, I think it sucks to have to sit through that.

Like I said, I'd be livid if this prayer was to some non-Christian God, it would ruin the ceremony for me.

[CBRVFR]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

Seriously, here's the rub, we interpret this key point differently.

I think a prayer to commence graduation, or for that matter, saying God in the pledge, is forcing people to participate in religion if they want to participate in the graduation or the recitation of the pledge.

Graduation is a big deal for many people, I think it sucks to have to sit through that.

Like I said, I'd be livid if this prayer was to some non-Christian God, it would ruin the ceremony for me.

I can hardly imagine a public prayer that I'd be entirely comfortable with, but I think that the exercise of that right by those who DO believe is more important than my desire to be shielded from that brief discomfort.

And people in this country have the absolute right to worship a "non-Christian God," so why would that piss you off? The same Constitution gives you the absolute right to ignore them.

What you're saying is somewhat (though not exactly) analogous to the position of those who don't like guns, and wanting to restrict the ability of those who worship them to own a million of the things, or to carry them in public.

And that's Mr. Asshole to you, you rude young punk.

[BDA116]

What about at every session of Congress, every morning at the Supreme Court, every Presidential innauguration, etc? They all open with what is deemed a non-denominational prayer.
Our country is founded much more solidly on the basis of religious beliefs than many people want to acknowledge.
No there shouldn't be a state-sponsored and forced religion whereby laws are made, which was the case with the Church of England and the reasoning behind that line in the First, but religion is being infringed upon more than any other right given us by our maker and protected by the Constitution.

[Scout]

Originally Posted by CBRVFR

I have a simpler test:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

That's a two-edged sword. Rather than to prohibit all expressions of religion in public, which is clearly not the intent of the first amendment, it seems to me to be a better idea to allow much more expression of the various religions that make up the fabric of our great country.

Then, when the radical islamists, the animists, the satanists, and the TadeoBabaists want to have 5 minutes at all the graduation ceremonies in the country to, respectively, Declaim all Western influences, dance around asking the great goat in the sky for better manure, sacrifice a live chicken, or rev their Fireblades to 11,000 rpm, it should occur to everybody that public prayer is so meaningless and universally annoying that even Jesus took time to severely criticize it. (Matthew 6:5-7)

Too bad common sense and tolerance are neither widespread religious practice, considered common courtesy by the non-religious, or a product of our judicial system.

amen. (said to self)

[CBR929RE]

Originally Posted by CBRVFR

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

they actually contradict themselves with "separation of church and state"

I wouldn't want any prayer held at my graduation (and there was one at both my high school and college graduations, both public/state schools). At my high school they alternate between a Rabbi and a Priest at graduation. it's bullshit, no prayer should be there. If you want to pray do it before or after the ceremony, not during.

[BDA116]

Originally Posted by CBR929RE

they actually contradict themselves with "separation of church and state"

I wouldn't want any prayer held at my graduation (and there was one at both my high school and college graduations, both public/state schools). At my high school they alternate between a Rabbi and a Priest at graduation. it's bullshit, no prayer should be there. If you want to pray do it before or after the ceremony, not during.

Really. Show us where exactly in the Constitution the words "separation of church and state" appear.

[jaim]

Originally Posted by BDA116

What about at every session of Congress, every morning at the Supreme Court, every Presidential innauguration, etc? They all open with what is deemed a non-denominational prayer.
Our country is founded much more solidly on the basis of religious beliefs than many people want to acknowledge.
No there shouldn't be a state-sponsored and forced religion whereby laws are made, which was the case with the Church of England and the reasoning behind that line in the First, but religion is being infringed upon more than any other right given us by our maker and protected by the Constitution.

How is religion being infringed upon more than any other right? Or to be more grammatically correct. How is the practicing of religion being infringed upon more than any other right? Seems to me, with just the few examples you have provided, that practicing religion is more wide spread than the framers of the constitution intened or wanted.
Because of the following:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;..."
Churches are free to pop up most anywhere and they have.

Prayer in public schools...Bad.
Prayer in churches or religious schools...Good.
The judge was right. The kids, teachers, and parents who supported the prayer were wrong. Federal and state money should be taken away from that school.

Let all the folks who want the religious aspects included in school send their kids to religious schools. Why is that such a hard concept to grasp?

[Mojave954]

Just a form of brain washing. You don't need a book to define your morals or ethics let alone your beliefs. Let alone someone up on pulpit telling you that you are going to hell if you don't follow the word of a book that was written by a bunch of opium smokin' whinos.