[phobiaphobe]

The gods are dead? Perhaps they are! Who knows?
Living at least in Lempriere undeleted,
The wise, the fair, the awful, the jocose,
Are one and all. I like to think, retreated
In some still land of lilacs and the rose.

Once high they sat, and high o’er earthly shows
With sacrificial dance and song were greeted.
Once ... long ago. But now, the story goes,
The gods are dead.

It must be true. The world, a world of prose,
Full-crammed with facts, in science swathed and sheeted,
Nods in a stertorous after-dinner doze!
Plangent and sad, in every wind that blows
Who will may hear the sorry words repeated: –
‘The Gods are Dead!’

-William Ernest Henley

[mathyoomay]

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

The gods are dead? Perhaps they are! Who knows?
Living at least in Lempriere undeleted,
The wise, the fair, the awful, the jocose,
Are one and all. I like to think, retreated
In some still land of lilacs and the rose.

Once high they sat, and high o’er earthly shows
With sacrificial dance and song were greeted.
Once ... long ago. But now, the story goes,
The gods are dead.

It must be true. The world, a world of prose,
Full-crammed with facts, in science swathed and sheeted,
Nods in a stertorous after-dinner doze!
Plangent and sad, in every wind that blows
Who will may hear the sorry words repeated: –
‘The Gods are Dead!’

-William Ernest Henley

[929Fregm]

Hey!

Its good to see someone using there freedom of speech we enjoy being AMERCANS. Although I personally don't agree with his view of no GOD, but there is no way we just happened one day, we as humans and the enviroment in which we live is entirely too complex as we evolve on a daily basis, we learn...we change.
Just think about all of the things we cannot explain and understand,now that some scary #$%@!

[trippd]

Does it really make sense to you that a person can learn thoughout his lifetime only to die at the end with no purpose? Most people have a will to live & most don't want to die; even christians who say they are looking forward to heaven don't readily embrace their ultimate death. If there is a God who created us & has always existed, maybe he wants to relate to us eternally.to

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

The gods are dead? Perhaps they are! Who knows?
Living at least in Lempriere undeleted,
The wise, the fair, the awful, the jocose,
Are one and all. I like to think, retreated
In some still land of lilacs and the rose.

Once high they sat, and high o’er earthly shows
With sacrificial dance and song were greeted.
Once ... long ago. But now, the story goes,
The gods are dead.

It must be true. The world, a world of prose,
Full-crammed with facts, in science swathed and sheeted,
Nods in a stertorous after-dinner doze!
Plangent and sad, in every wind that blows
Who will may hear the sorry words repeated: –
‘The Gods are Dead!’

-William Ernest Henley

[phobiaphobe]

Originally Posted by trippd

Does it really make sense to you that a person can learn thoughout his lifetime only to die at the end with no purpose?

My life is my purpose.

[Ravensgate]

It's all about the tax status. The IRS created Xenu.

[asiliat]

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

My life is my purpose.

But if that's the case, why don't we all sell everything we have, blow on the one thing we want most, live your life until your body begins to deteriorate, and then kill ourselves? What's the point in living past that certain age where you are no longer 100% functional - everyone has a different age breaking point. 90 yr olds don't enjoy jumping out of planes much - because more often than not, their body can't take it.

My point is this, there's more than just enjoying the moment. To believe that after death is the end of our existence just makes no sense.

I know a lot of people take evolution as a fact, but truth of the matter is, when you begin to look at every single coincidence that can happen for the human body to be working this ingeniously, it's hard to accept it was a cosmic accident.

[BDA116]

I have a nephew that was an accident.

[asiliat]

Originally Posted by BDA116

I have a nephew that was an accident.

hahaha, nice one. I think my parents consider me an accident as well, and a disgrace if truth be told.

Still, I believe in God, and Jesus, as the Son of God, who came down to earth to die for my sins; by THANKING Him for dying for my sins, then being SORRY of the sins I've commited, and finally asking "PLEASE, come into my life", I know where I'll go when I die.

[leelover]

Originally Posted by asiliat

hahaha, nice one. I think my parents consider me an accident as well, and a disgrace if truth be told.

Still, I believe in God, and Jesus, as the Son of God, who came down to earth to die for my sins; by THANKING Him for dying for my sins, then being SORRY of the sins I've commited, and finally asking "PLEASE, come into my life", I know where I'll go when I die.

well said.
And then we start to live for Him!

[asiliat]

But, I don't believe in the book of Mormons, and I don't think the Pope is anything but a man. I also don't believe in the Watch Tower magazines or literature. I don't think L. Ron Hubbard is the "way". And I don't do good works so I can get to Heaven. No amount of doing good will be good enough for God - if you don't believe in His Son.

Most atheist will read the above and think I've been brainwashed and forced to drink kool aid. But I'm not that kind of person. Although I've been forced to go to Church since I was young, I've come to the logical conclusion that Christ is the only way to eternal salvation.

One can never argue someone else to be a Christian. The person must at least be curious before they can have a meaningful conversation.

I say the same thing as I say to anyone who's interested in Christianity - He's the ONLY God who will reveal Himself to you if you ask. Not as a physical manifestation, but through time and patience, if you watch for it, He will make known to you that He is indeed real. You don't have to tell anyone you've prayed to God that He shows Himself, that's the "miraculous" part. But if you're sincere about finding God and having Him in your life, you need to only pray like this:

Dear God, I am a sinner. I don't exactly know what that means. I don't know what it means to know you. But I pray that you reveal yourself to me, and that if you are real, you let me know. I know I'm not yet a Child of yours, but if you do show me, I will accept. In Jesus' name I pray, amen.

Pray thusly for a while, before you sleep, and I guarantee He will show you that He's not a figure of anyone's imagination.

I'm not a Christian nut. I'm not a Bible thumper. I'm sane, rational, with an IQ of 142. I just know that God has changed my life, and I owe it to Him, AND my friends to tell you about the "good news".

[steingar]

The Nazi prison guard at the concentration camp participates in the killing of thousands of Jews. The day before he is to be executed for crimes against humanity he accepts Jesus into his heart, is baptized and his sins are washed away. Upon his execution he goes to be with God in heaven, while the thousands of Jews he murdered, who's only crime was being Jewish, go to hell.

[phobiaphobe]

I heard if you turn off the lights and look in a mirror and say "Candyman" 3 times he will appear.

[asiliat]

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

I heard if you turn off the lights and look in a mirror and say "Candyman" 3 times he will appear.

Really? Hmm, don't dare try it, what if the M&M dood comes over and conks me over the head and steals my underwear?? That would be embarassing - cuz I thought I'd always be able to take out the yellow M&M... doesn't look so tough in commercials.

We believe what we believe. Again, no amount of typing or exchange of PM will prove anything if you're not ready.

As for the Nazi reference, I agree it is hard to accept. I really do. But God is fair in that He gave us free will. Those who live a normal life has probably had chances to believe and accept the free gift of Salvation - but did not take it. Those who do accept the gift go to Heaven. It's not a matter of timing per se.

Without interpreting or trying to deviate from the orthodoxed teachings of the Bible, Jesus does remind us to store our treasures in Heaven. That is to say, the good things we do on earth after we become His child will be rewarded back to us when we are there. Maybe, just maybe, while the Nazi guard does indeed go to Heaven, he will not be granted a mansion, but instead a lowly thatched hut to live in. hehe.

See, I don't know everything there is to know, no one person does. Anyone that says they know God's divine plan down to a letter is false. I am still learning to be a "faithful" Christian.

I mean, the unasked question is simple: What happens to people who die but has never heard of the Gospel? Where do they go? What about babies that die soon after birth, do they go to Hell too?

The bible doesn't say anything about those two cases. Maybe God will be more fair and judge their heart alone. The thing is we shouldn't let that prevent us from believing - instead be resolved to spread the Word so that others too may have this blessed assurance.

I don't really enjoy debating about Christianity over the internet, it doesn't get anywhere quite honestly.

[steingar]

Your boss only cares about loyalty. You do great work and don't like your boss. Another fellow does really lousy work. He goofs off, makes lots of mistakes, and is not that good. However, he kisses up to your boss all the time. Your boss gives the other person a raise, a nice office, and the best parking space, just to reward that person's loyalty. Such rewards are based on loyalty only, your good works remain ignored.

Sound fair?

[Antinomianist]

I am appalled the the Flying Spaghetti Monster has been omitted from this discussion:

Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

[Proto]

arrr! avast me 'earties, lets not forget t' spaghetti creature

[asiliat]

Originally Posted by steingar

Your boss only cares about loyalty. You do great work and don't like your boss. Another fellow does really lousy work. He goofs off, makes lots of mistakes, and is not that good. However, he kisses up to your boss all the time. Your boss gives the other person a raise, a nice office, and the best parking space, just to reward that person's loyalty. Such rewards are based on loyalty only, your good works remain ignored.

Sound fair?

Nope, totally unfair. Thing is, we're using human traits to judge God. Also, there's the matter of the heart. Your example assumes the boss is completely foolish and can't tell butt kissing from doing actual work. God knows your heart, and sees the deeds that you do or don't do. However, He gives no credit to you if you're not His child.

I mean, it's really the same way as any father/child relationship - if you were some stranger kid coming over and pruning the garden and cultivating your roses, it would creep you out more often than not. - Fine, maybe over time you'll appreciate the gesture, but God doesn't.

There are a lot of situations we've experienced where it's "unfair". The point is, God's given us the free will to accept or reject. If He forced us to love Him - or forced us to at least believe in Him, how fair would that be?

I sometimes am scared to quote the Bible in these discussion, because if you don't believe in God or the Bible, it doesn't matter what is written in there. However, I'm going to link this:

John 15:1-5
1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me."

That basically says if we do good works alone, or if we accept God, but then sit on our lazy butt, it's not going to do much good! The key is to know Him though. Some people think that working hard alone and doing good will mean something in the end.....

[leelover]

Originally Posted by steingar

The Nazi prison guard at the concentration camp participates in the killing of thousands of Jews. The day before he is to be executed for crimes against humanity he accepts Jesus into his heart, is baptized and his sins are washed away. Upon his execution he goes to be with God in heaven, while the thousands of Jews he murdered, who's only crime was being Jewish, go to hell.

This post and your next one are trying to discredit the validity of the Gospel because it doesn't seem fair to you.
God looks at the heart of man, each and everyone of us individually. He is the only one who can judge the true motives of man. He IS a true and perfect judge, and the only one who has the right to judge.
You can always find some thing to look at that will give you an excuse to avoid facing the reality of what is in your own heart.

[steingar]

No, the cosmos you portend seem unjust. According to your beliefs a incompetant supplicant will do far better in the afterlife than a truly heroic infidel. You can quote all the scripture you like, you still cannot get around this central predilection.

[asiliat]

Originally Posted by steingar

No, the cosmos you portend seem unjust. According to your beliefs a incompetant supplicant will do far better in the afterlife than a truly heroic infidel. You can quote all the scripture you like, you still cannot get around this central predilection.

Agreed, like I said, I'm not one to willynilly quote scripture. However, if you took a step back and see it for what it is, the Bible is saying that there is life after death, and that after we die - "life" is eternal. We can choose here on earth whether to spend it eternally in Heaven or Hell. It clearly lays out both options.

Put it in this context. Would you rather have God say: You can go to Heaven by doing good work, or by being good. There's no other way.

Now, what if we screw up. Even though I'm a Christian, I still make mistakes. I still swear at people when I'm much too angry, I still have lustful sexual desires, and I still lie to people sometimes. It's just not possble to be "good" all the time.

But God has given a way out - and that way is the believe in Jesus, thereby allowing us to ask for forgiveness each time we sin. I know it sounds like rhetoric, cuz I'm sure you've heard that before. But that's just how simple it really is.

You can spend the rest of your life by trying to be a good person, it just won't matter. You can cry "Unfair" or "unjust", all you want - but if you do believe in God, at the end of the day, He's the ones holding the cards. He dictates what you need to do to enter Heaven, not us.

Having said that, it's not like you can go and kill someone, then say, "Whoops, sorry God." and expect to get off scott-free. If you get away with murder (literally), and ask for forgiveness, you've actually not been sorry at all - Because God still needs you to pay for the consequences of your action here on earth. Only then can you really show your repentant heart.

And again, it's about the heart. If I do something out of greed by it also incidently helps someone out, it doesn't make it any better - your original motivator is still greed. You could genuinely want to help, getting nothing in return, but it still won't matter. You've not suffered for anyone but yourself.

I don't know to answer you, except God put His free gift of salvation to everyone. You've heard it from me and maybe several others. It is your choice to make. If you feel that God's plan does not fit into your views, maybe it is your view you must change, and not God's plan itself.

I mean no malice, I've been through the same cycle of questions myself, but one day, it just clicked and made sense, and I hope you too will have that one moment of "Oh, I get it!"

[leelover]

All this SEEMS unjust to you because you don't understand what the Bible says about it.
Your definition of "heroic" is based on your own, or at best the world's perspective. Kind of like grading on a curve.
None of us here are capable of judging God as unjust.
Particularly if we chose to be ignorant of who He really is.

[steingar]

You are claiming to know who God is and how he works. Supplicate and enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

[Ravensgate]

Just a means to control.

The origin of the Bible, begins in AD 325, when Constantine the Great
called the First Council of Nicaea, composed of 300 religious leaders.
Three centuries after Jesus lived, this council was given the task of
separating divinely inspired writings from those of questionable origin.
The actual compilation of the Bible was an incredibly complicated project
that involved churchmen of many varying beliefs, in an atmosphere of
dissension, jealousy, intolerance, persecution and bigotry.
At this time, the question of the divinity of Jesus had split the
church into two factions. Constantine offered to make the little-known
Christian sect the official state religion if the Christians would
settle their differences. Apparently, he didn't particularly care what
they believed in as long as they agreed upon a belief. By compiling a
book of sacred writings, Constantine thought that the book would give
authority to the new church.