[ratchetman]

Well fundamentally I believe that there is one God, the bible was inspired by him and that Jesus was God made flesh literally and not allegorically. That he lived and died to pay for our sins and rose from the dead. I also believe that salvation comes ONLY by faith in Jesus. Just to make a brief synopsis of what I consider to be some of the most fundamental parts of my faith. So if that is the supernatural part to which you refer then there it is. I will defend this position from the point that it is the only and absolute truth. Many other doctrinal points of debate I might hesitate to pass a judgment on.
As far as free will and the clergy goes, I freely attend the church of my choice to receive the kind of teaching that I want, because I have made a choice by my free will to believe a certain way and this choice is reinforced by my actions.

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by ratchetman

Well fundamentally I believe that there is one God, the bible was inspired by him and that Jesus was God made flesh literally and not allegorically. That he lived and died to pay for our sins and rose from the dead. I also believe that salvation comes ONLY by faith in Jesus. Just to make a brief synopsis of what I consider to be some of the most fundamental parts of my faith. So if that is the supernatural part to which you refer then there it is. I will defend this position from the point that it is the only and absolute truth. Many other doctrinal points of debate I might hesitate to pass a judgment on.
As far as free will and the clergy goes, I freely attend the church of my choice to receive the kind of teaching that I want, because I have made a choice by my free will to believe a certain way and this choice is reinforced by my actions.

And sir, you are insane. Just kidding...Well, only a little bit. THAT clearly represents the root problem of ALL organized religions, and why ultimately they all try to sell ya a bill of goods not deliverable until you die...

The only truth in your statement is that you might (but how can the "prospective" be anything more than probability??? It certainly can't be truth) defend this position.

Feel free, but you, and every other person who attempts it, will fail.

Why?

Because ALL faiths fail to establish the truth of their positions, and instead rely on "the word of god" and proselytizing by the faithful...Those of faith buy into it, those without do not, and there is no common ground.

In every academic, philosophical, and intellectual way, a person of faith can't sufficiently describe the nature of the thing to which they are attaching his or her faith, sufficient to actually have faith. What they have is an emotional belief or a need to belong to something greater than themselves...Join a book club.

[Custom900]

Originally Posted by analogbear

And sir, you are insane. Just kidding...Well, only a little bit. THAT clearly represents the root problem of ALL organized religions, and why ultimately they all try to sell ya a bill of goods not deliverable until you die...

The only truth in your statement is that you might (but how can the "prospective" be anything more than probability??? It certainly can't be truth) defend this position.

Feel free, but you, and every other person who attempts it, will fail.

Why?

Because ALL faiths fail to establish the truth of their positions, and instead rely on "the word of god" and proselytizing by the faithful...Those of faith buy into it, those without do not, and there is no common ground.

In every academic, philosophical, and intellectual way, a person of faith can't sufficiently describe the nature of the thing to which they are attaching his or her faith, sufficient to actually have faith. What they have is an emotional belief or a need to belong to something greater than themselves...Join a book club.

Analog, do you ever have anything positive to say You never seem to agree with anyone on any topic.

As for joining a book club; get a life. You have no idea just how blind you really are.

Does this seem insulting? Sorry, I guess you get what you give and I'm in a terrible mood so I don't feel like being nice.

[bryan4980]

Originally Posted by analogbear

And sir, you are insane. Just kidding...Well, only a little bit. THAT clearly represents the root problem of ALL organized religions, and why ultimately they all try to sell ya a bill of goods not deliverable until you die...

The only truth in your statement is that you might (but how can the "prospective" be anything more than probability??? It certainly can't be truth) defend this position.

Feel free, but you, and every other person who attempts it, will fail.

Why?

Because ALL faiths fail to establish the truth of their positions, and instead rely on "the word of god" and proselytizing by the faithful...Those of faith buy into it, those without do not, and there is no common ground.

In every academic, philosophical, and intellectual way, a person of faith can't sufficiently describe the nature of the thing to which they are attaching his or her faith, sufficient to actually have faith. What they have is an emotional belief or a need to belong to something greater than themselves...Join a book club.

Firstly by asking for those you that believe in God, are you asking those who believe in god or believe in a higher power? If it is believe in a higher power your last statement is false as I know of at least one Pagan religion whose followers need not blindly believe as there is constant proof of their beliefs. I am not exactly willing to share which religion this is as those who follow Catholic type religions and not Pagan religions typically view Pagan's as evil or demonic. The point is if what I have assumed is correct then you would need to do research on other religions.

[UncleJesse954]

Originally Posted by hurricane249

I think that if you honestly believe in God that you don't think there is a right or wrong way to worship Him. I believe in God but respect an individuals method of worshipping. I'm more a spiritual private worshipping type. I do belong to a church but rarely go. I do go to different churches with friends. In the last year I have been to Baptist, Lutheran, Catholic, and a First Christian services. A couple of years ago I went to a Jewish service. I think that if people would take their personal "religous blinders" off they might discover something they didn't know.

people might not kill each other so much too

[UncleJesse954]

Originally Posted by ratchetman

Well fundamentally I believe that there is one God, the bible was inspired by him and that Jesus was God made flesh literally and not allegorically. That he lived and died to pay for our sins and rose from the dead. I also believe that salvation comes ONLY by faith in Jesus. Just to make a brief synopsis of what I consider to be some of the most fundamental parts of my faith. So if that is the supernatural part to which you refer then there it is. I will defend this position from the point that it is the only and absolute truth. Many other doctrinal points of debate I might hesitate to pass a judgment on.
As far as free will and the clergy goes, I freely attend the church of my choice to receive the kind of teaching that I want, because I have made a choice by my free will to believe a certain way and this choice is reinforced by my actions.

sounds to me like you're telling most of the world that you think they will burn in eternal hellfire if they dont accept your religion. i'd say karma is my religion. and people like you dont make the cut

[Atreyu]

I agree with certain points of what all of you have said but honestly in almost every religion across the globe there is something that is completely ridiculous or utterly stupid that each one does

[ratchetman]

Originally Posted by UncleJesse954

sounds to me like you're telling most of the world that you think they will burn in eternal hellfire if they dont accept your religion. i'd say karma is my religion. and people like you dont make the cut

Well see now, I don't agree with you or with analogbear. But my religious beliefs allow for you to be free to believe what ever ridiculous balderdash you please. I won't be strapping on any bombs to wipe out the infidels. I sense however that my belief that those who do not chose to put their faith in Jesus will spend eternity in hell, makes you uncomfortable.

[Italgirl1971]

I was told by a friend of mine who is a Baptist minister that I am not very open-minded because I can't see his viewpoint on religion. But he's one of those people who is very intolerant of various groups of people who are different from him. So I'm left to wonder - if being open-minded is the key to believing in God or religion or "faith", then how can one who has seen the light (so to speak) and gone from atheist to Baptist minister not be open-minded about his fellow man?

I've also been asked (by the same person) how I have a set of morals if I don't believe in God. I told him that my parents taught me my set of morals but that at some point after growing up, I questioned the rightness of just about everything. I thought about it all critically. And I concluded that in order for so many people to live together without chaos ensuing, there were certain "rules" that needed to be followed - a code of ethics or morals, if you will. The laws of our states and country coincide with my set of morals. And yes, they happen to be based on the Bible, but I don't know why that is supposed to make me leap to the Christian faith. I don't think religion is without its share of good ideas. But apparently because I think the Bible might have some good lessons in it, I should be able to make the huge leap into believing in an unseen, all-knowing, all-powerful being. I just can't get into that. I also think most would agree that Aesop's fables had some good lessons in them, but we would all be quick to cast judgment on anyone who decided to worship Aesop.

With that said, I have a hard time with all religion. I see the only real difference between religion and a cult to be the number of beilevers/followers. That's the only thing that makes it socially acceptable from what I can see - that there are thousands of people who believe in a certain faith, thus it's "okay". If only 10 people believed in it, and you decided to join up, you would be declared a whacko, or weak-minded, or a door mat, or gullible, or whatever else they consider the followers of David Koresh and the Heaven's Gate people with the purple Nikes.

Just my

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by Custom900

Analog, do you ever have anything positive to say You never seem to agree with anyone on any topic.

As for joining a book club; get a life. You have no idea just how blind you really are.

Does this seem insulting? Sorry, I guess you get what you give and I'm in a terrible mood so I don't feel like being nice.

I have a great life, I often agree with people, but if one spends his life as a "yes-man" that is so uninteresting...I rarely agree with those that spout idiocy, and I have found three distinct groups of idiots:
Religious people, so-called conservative politicos, and so-called liberal politicos...All three of those groups ignorantly devote themselves and subscribe to a set of positions, beliefs, and principles that are at best just wrong, and are at worst a fraud perpetrated on the unknowing by those with some historical-power or position.

Originally Posted by bryan4980

Firstly by asking for those you that believe in God, are you asking those who believe in god or believe in a higher power? If it is believe in a higher power your last statement is false as I know of at least one Pagan religion whose followers need not blindly believe as there is constant proof of their beliefs. I am not exactly willing to share which religion this is as those who follow Catholic type religions and not Pagan religions typically view Pagan's as evil or demonic. The point is if what I have assumed is correct then you would need to do research on other religions.

I have done research, in an academic setting, not the breakfast table or the aisle of a grocery store...

Nice try, but I capitalized because it would draw more open minded replies, rather than just ranting about how I was disrespectful of their chosen god. I included, I think plainly derived from several posts above, ALL organized religions, and anyone who is "spiritual" with a particular characteristic that is also found in all organized religions: if the person believes they are "right" in their belief -in system, dogma, supernatural aspects, and ritual- what they are really saying is that others are wrong. I can't see how, if there are so many different paths to enlightenment, that any path would deride another as heresy or not just as accurate. This seems to me like quasi-political population/social control, rather than the worship of a benevolent god. Frankly, even several Pagan religions suffer from the same weakness, as they limit the impact that the Jewish/Christian/Muslim god (the same god, by the way) has on their view of the world, by including aspects of the tangible universe as deities...

Originally Posted by ratchetman

Well see now, I don't agree with you or with analogbear. But my religious beliefs allow for you to be free to believe what ever ridiculous balderdash you please. I won't be strapping on any bombs to wipe out the infidels. I sense however that my belief that those who do not chose to put their faith in Jesus will spend eternity in hell, makes you uncomfortable.

Absolutely not, it kind of makes me laugh, not to be mean; but, can you describe hell, and then tell me why what you describe is the "worst" thing? I bet what you will tell me might sound bad, but give me a few sentences after your reply, and I will show you that what is the traditional hell is nothing more than an old-world scare tactic, and not really all that bad, so not hell. Hell doesn't exist in any tangible sense, and NEEDING one to keep people on the straight and narrow clearly shows the weakness of any particular moral scheme.

Originally Posted by Italgirl1971

So I'm left to wonder - if being open-minded is the key to believing in God or religion or "faith", then how can one who has seen the light (so to speak) and gone from atheist to Baptist minister not be open-minded about his fellow man?

I've also been asked (by the same person) how I have a set of morals if I don't believe in God. I told him that my parents taught me my set of morals but that at some point after growing up, I questioned the rightness of just about everything. I thought about it all critically. And I concluded that in order for so many people to live together without chaos ensuing, there were certain "rules" that needed to be followed - a code of ethics or morals, if you will.
With that said, I have a hard time with all religion. I see the only real difference between religion and a cult to be the number of beilevers/followers.

Just my

I suppose their position is that one must be open minded to allow the spirit into him or her, but once you have been saved or find god's particular little program (funny how they all think their way is the ONLY way) your mind must be shut down, lest god get away...

Amen to your 2-cents...

[Italgirl1971]

Originally Posted by analogbear

Amen to your 2-cents...

Ok that was funny!

I once read that there are no Christian children, or Muslim children, or Jewish children. There are only children of Christian parents, Muslim parents, and Jewish parents. That until a child can think critically (i.e., for themselves) any religious education they receive is just dogma.

I guess I can be labeled as an atheist (although I'm kind of opposed to labels on that scale). My kids' father is a Southern Baptist and takes the kids with him to church when they are with him. In the last 2 years, they have probably been to Sunday School maybe 15 times.

I will give the Southern Baptists this - they have mastered their marketing toward children because, for as rare as my children's visits to church are, my oldest (who's only 6) has been brainwashed. I know that's a pretty harsh term but its the only one that fits. There is no reason for her to believe the way she does other than that. And as someone who is outside that particular school of thought, to be able to sit back and watch it happen virtually overnight, is.... both amazing and terrifying at the same time but for very different reasons. Whatever they have told her has managed to close her mental doors to my rather innocuous statements to her that "not everyone believes that" and trying to educate her about beliefs different from the ones her father holds.

I just want my kids to develop critical thinking skills. I teach my kids right from wrong but I do so using reason. It's not simply a Mommy Mandate. It's walking them through the process - "what do you think will happen if you throw that rock at your friend? do you think they will like that?" etc.. Seems to me that religion is taught to children based on "Because I said so." rather than showing them the truth in the concepts offered. The irony is that their father and I have always agreed that we would never mandate to our children, we opted rather to take the time to explain to them and let them learn the truth for themselves. Now he has them going to church with him and allowing those outside of the kids' family to mandate to them.

It irks me. I'm going to take deep breaths now.

[Atreyu]

go ahead and poor a strong drink too

[analogbear]

I suppose the toughest thing to get is how these folks can really believe all that crap. I don't mean to be derisive-Wait! Yes I do. They must be kidding! If they really believe what they say they believe, they are totally screwed up folks....

I counter that with my absolute belief in Nietzsche's will to power...In order for me to stay alive, something else has to die...I am perfectly willing to eat a Baptist...

[Atreyu]

Originally Posted by analogbear

I am perfectly willing to eat a Baptist...

Fire up the grill and pull out the barbecue sauce we're having a cookout

[ratchetman]

I see the only real difference between religion and a cult to be the number of beilevers/followers.

Well a cult usually seeks to control every aspect of thought and action by it's followers. Leaders of a cult are do not allow any criticism and are not accountable to anyone. I would not allow myself to be subjected to such a group.
Italgirl if your child choses to become a Christian that does not mean that she loses the ability to think critically.

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by ratchetman

I see the only real difference between religion and a cult to be the number of beilevers/followers.

Well a cult usually seeks to control every aspect of thought and action by it's followers. Leaders of a cult are do not allow any criticism and are not accountable to anyone. I would not allow myself to be subjected to such a group.
Italgirl if your child choses to become a Christian that does not mean that she loses the ability to think critically.

By definition, because there is no rational, reasonable, logical, critical, historical, philosophical, or intuitive reason TO become a christian, one loses the ability (or at least fails to exercise it at all) when one becomes a follower of ANY or ALL religions...Especially Christianity.

Oh, and by telling me to tithe, not use rubbers, live a certain way, worship, etc...Religions ARE trying to control EVERY aspect of life...At least Cults have the courtesy to do it in private...

[ratchetman]

Originally Posted by analogbear

By definition, because there is no rational, reasonable, logical, critical, historical, philosophical, or intuitive reason TO become a christian, one loses the ability (or at least fails to exercise it at all) when one becomes a follower of ANY or ALL religions...Especially Christianity.

Oh, and by telling me to tithe, not use rubbers, live a certain way, worship, etc...Religions ARE trying to control EVERY aspect of life...At least Cults have the courtesy to do it in private...

If you spend some time in church you will hear all kinds of rational, reasonable, logical, critical, historical, philosophical, and intuitive reasons for becoming a Christian. But I suspect that you would disagree with all of them.
As far as the cults go you are being deliberately closed minded about the differences between a cult and a religion.

[leelover]

Originally Posted by Italgirl1971

I was told by a friend of mine who is a Baptist minister that I am not very open-minded because I can't see his viewpoint on religion. But he's one of those people who is very intolerant of various groups of people who are different from him. So I'm left to wonder - if being open-minded is the key to believing in God or religion or "faith", then how can one who has seen the light (so to speak) and gone from atheist to Baptist minister not be open-minded about his fellow man?

What do you mean when you say he is very intolerant of people different than him?

Is he "intolerant" because he thinks they are wrong and says so?

Originally Posted by Italgirl1971

I've also been asked (by the same person) how I have a set of morals if I don't believe in God. I told him that my parents taught me my set of morals but that at some point after growing up, I questioned the rightness of just about everything. I thought about it all critically. And I concluded that in order for so many people to live together without chaos ensuing, there were certain "rules" that needed to be followed - a code of ethics or morals, if you will. The laws of our states and country coincide with my set of morals. And yes, they happen to be based on the Bible, but I don't know why that is supposed to make me leap to the Christian faith. I don't think religion is without its share of good ideas. But apparently because I think the Bible might have some good lessons in it, I should be able to make the huge leap into believing in an unseen, all-knowing, all-powerful being. I just can't get into that. I also think most would agree that Aesop's fables had some good lessons in them, but we would all be quick to cast judgment on anyone who decided to worship Aesop.

Your morals don't just happen to be based on the Bible. They are the basis to living a full and productive life. They come from The Creator, like an owners manual would come from any manufacturer.

There are good lessons in many formats, that doesn't mean you should worship the teller of the tale. Wisdom comes from God alone.

Originally Posted by Italgirl1971

With that said, I have a hard time with all religion. I see the only real difference between religion and a cult to be the number of beilevers/followers. That's the only thing that makes it socially acceptable from what I can see - that there are thousands of people who believe in a certain faith, thus it's "okay". If only 10 people believed in it, and you decided to join up, you would be declared a whacko, or weak-minded, or a door mat, or gullible, or whatever else they consider the followers of David Koresh and the Heaven's Gate people with the purple Nikes.

Just my

I hear what you are saying here. But there is more to it than that. The ideals and beliefs of the two groups you named (and many others) do not compare with the teaching and words of Christ.

Not to mention the biggest and main difference with true Christianity: No other "prophet" died to take the punishment for your sins, nor had the authority to do so.

[Italgirl1971]

Originally Posted by analogbear

I am perfectly willing to eat a Baptist...

Feel free to PM me for his address.

Originally Posted by ratchetman

I see the only real difference between religion and a cult to be the number of beilevers/followers.

Well a cult usually seeks to control every aspect of thought and action by it's followers. Leaders of a cult are do not allow any criticism and are not accountable to anyone. I would not allow myself to be subjected to such a group.
Italgirl if your child choses to become a Christian that does not mean that she loses the ability to think critically.

My concern is not that she will become a Christian. It is actually a two-fold concern. First, that she will, as Bear mentioned, fail to exercise critical thinking because of how she is being taught. Second, but more important in my book because it is deals specifically with this child's father, is that he takes them to a church whose Statement of Faith states in relevant part:

"In the spirit of Christ, Christians should oppose racism, every form of greed, selfishness, and vice, and all forms of sexual immorality, including adultery, homosexuality, and pornography. We should work to provide for the orphaned, the needy, the abused, the aged, the helpless, and the sick. "

This is a man who is racist, judgmental, behind in his child support, cheated on me while I was pregnant with the same child he now wishes to indoctrinate, and downloads porn like there is no tomorrow. He's a hypocrite. I take exception to my child being taught that anything is the "truth" by someone who is a hypocrite to the doctrine they are teaching.

The evidence that God doesn't exist is this: if God does exist, my ex would burst into flames upon entering church for being both a sinner and a hypocrite. He has never spontaneously been rendered into ashes. Therefore...... If you can find the loophole in that one, lemme hear it. lol

Now as for the differences between a cult and religion..... cult - Definitions from Dictionary.com if nothing else, it makes you think.

[leelover]

Originally Posted by Italgirl1971

Ok that was funny!

I once read that there are no Christian children, or Muslim children, or Jewish children. There are only children of Christian parents, Muslim parents, and Jewish parents. That until a child can think critically (i.e., for themselves) any religious education they receive is just dogma.

I guess I can be labeled as an atheist (although I'm kind of opposed to labels on that scale). My kids' father is a Southern Baptist and takes the kids with him to church when they are with him. In the last 2 years, they have probably been to Sunday School maybe 15 times.

I will give the Southern Baptists this - they have mastered their marketing toward children because, for as rare as my children's visits to church are, my oldest (who's only 6) has been brainwashed. I know that's a pretty harsh term but its the only one that fits. There is no reason for her to believe the way she does other than that. And as someone who is outside that particular school of thought, to be able to sit back and watch it happen virtually overnight, is.... both amazing and terrifying at the same time but for very different reasons. Whatever they have told her has managed to close her mental doors to my rather innocuous statements to her that "not everyone believes that" and trying to educate her about beliefs different from the ones her father holds.

I just want my kids to develop critical thinking skills. I teach my kids right from wrong but I do so using reason. It's not simply a Mommy Mandate. It's walking them through the process - "what do you think will happen if you throw that rock at your friend? do you think they will like that?" etc.. Seems to me that religion is taught to children based on "Because I said so." rather than showing them the truth in the concepts offered. The irony is that their father and I have always agreed that we would never mandate to our children, we opted rather to take the time to explain to them and let them learn the truth for themselves. Now he has them going to church with him and allowing those outside of the kids' family to mandate to them.

It irks me. I'm going to take deep breaths now.

I agree, kids need to understand why they believe what they do. Biblical truths should be taught the same way you do, by reason.

What exactly are the Baptist's "brainwashing" the kids with?

[Italgirl1971]

Originally Posted by leelover