[leelover]

Yes, it was "Chistianity all twisted". What the Catholic Church did is no where in the Bible, and goes against the words of the Lord.

Makes me wonder why it took so long to have a reformation. I guess because people were kept ignorant then-how convienient.

Thankfully we can all read now and have access to knowledge, if we want to look.

[sinfuldragon]

Originally Posted by leelover

Yes, it was "Chistianity all twisted". What the Catholic Church did is no where in the Bible, and goes against the words of the Lord.

Makes me wonder why it took so long to have a reformation. I guess because people were kept ignorant then-how convienient.

Thankfully we can all read now and have access to knowledge, if we want to look.

What about the scrolls that the church refuses to make public

[leelover]

Originally Posted by Italgirl1971

I might be alone in thinking that the present situation in Iraq is another crusade of sorts - a rather fundamentalist christian president vs. the muslim "terrorists"; "bring the fight to them before they bring it to us" I bet that's what those participating in the Crusades said too. "The most devastating long term consequence of the crusades, according to historian Peter Mansfield, was the creation of an Islamic mentality that sought a retreat into isolation. He says "Assaulted from all quarters, the Muslim world turned in on itself. It became oversensitive [and] defensive… attitudes that grew steadily worse as world-wide evolution, a process from which the Muslim world felt excluded, continued." And look where it got us!!

You are not alone in this belief. But that reasoning for the purpose of this war is not true. Nor is the idea that someone made the Muslims retreat into the mentality you describe. Check their history.

[leelover]

Originally Posted by sinfuldragon

What about the scrolls that the church refuses to make public

What do they say? Where did they come from? What is the intent behind their words?

For that matter what is the intent behind the words and teachings of the Bible?

[sinfuldragon]

Don't know what they say... its a big conspiracy man

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by leelover

But don't think I am saying this means you can't know the main intent by the simple words there on the page.

That is exactly my point. To you, and from your perspective, the words and their meaning seem simple and plain. My question is, when two rational, intelligent beings read the same words, and develop two fundamentally different interpretations, who is the arbiter of right-ness? If it is God, then any person who believes even slightly differently from anyone else is at risk for believing the wrong thing, and I suspect the law of averages and basic statistics would suggest that the majority interpretation is probably the more accurate one, rather than some esoteric personal interpretation of "plain and simple" language. I think Italgirl would back me up on the following statement: There is NOTHING plain or simple about language.

But, returning to the conflict of understanding I just mentioned, which was within a given religion/pertaining to a given text, I might see the probleam as a broader one. All religions purport to be the sole voice and truth of god, and yet I see the same problem of personal or sect-based or discrete-religion interpretation...What if people, seeing, reading, hearing, etc. the same religious/spiritual history, miracles, portents, etc. come up with different expressions of that same divinity?

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by ratchetman

Seems to you have read too may books and have not done enough self examination.

Spoken like a true fundamentalist...Kepp the mind empty, and the church full...

[leelover]

Originally Posted by analogbear

That is exactly my point. To you, and from your perspective, the words and their meaning seem simple and plain. My question is, when two rational, intelligent beings read the same words, and develop two fundamentally different interpretations, who is the arbiter of right-ness? If it is God, then any person who believes even slightly differently from anyone else is at risk for believing the wrong thing, and I suspect the law of averages and basic statistics would suggest that the majority interpretation is probably the more accurate one, rather than some esoteric personal interpretation of "plain and simple" language. I think Italgirl would back me up on the following statement: There is NOTHING plain or simple about language.

Yes, I see your point, but almost any relatively educated English speaking person residing in the USA (for example) would come up with the same interpretataion of simple writen statements. It would become a problem if someone was searching for hidden intent within the statement.

Originally Posted by analogbear

But, returning to the conflict of understanding I just mentioned, which was within a given religion/pertaining to a given text, I might see the probleam as a broader one. All religions purport to be the sole voice and truth of god, and yet I see the same problem of personal or sect-based or discrete-religion interpretation...What if people, seeing, reading, hearing, etc. the same religious/spiritual history, miracles, portents, etc. come up with different expressions of that same divinity?

You assume that every religion is a way to the same ultimate God. They are not. It doesn't take an involved examination of any of them to see this.

[leelover]

Originally Posted by sinfuldragon

its a big conspiracy man

Yes there are a lot of 'em!

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by leelover

Yes, I see your point, but almost any relatively educated English speaking person residing in the USA (for example) would come up with the same interpretataion of simple writen statements. It would become a problem if someone was searching for hidden intent within the statement.

I see you have never dealt with the law before...That is why I referenced Italgirl in my previous statement; and, I would figure that from our previous discussions that you would see clearly that the tomayto vs. tomahto issue can only become more pronounced when we string lots of archaicly-sourced and translated words together, coupled with differences in education (there is nothing standard about any basic education here in the US anyway) regional biases, the various interpretations that have preceeded any current one (and there are several going on at the same time now) personal experiences both with language and the church, personal psychological and social development...The list of things that impact not only our deepest character traits, but also trivial matters about how a given word impacts or is defined by us, is broad, deep and significant. I submit again: there is NOTHING plain or simple about language...Some attorneys, for example, make Millions of dollars becoming experts in the turn of a handful of phrases or the interpretation of only 3 or 4 words...If the bible is as significant as people who believe in it say, I don't think any old personal/pop-culture interpretation is respectful.

Originally Posted by leelover

You assume that every religion is a way to the same ultimate God. They are not. It doesn't take an involved examination of any of them to see this.

You proceed from the assumption that they don't lead to the same god, but if there is only one god, they must lead to him...

[slorider18]

all in all, it is Christ's desire that all should accept Him as their lord and savior and recieve eternal salvation. if people don't want to believe that it is truth that is their decision. If you want to call me crazy then i guess i am. i can deal with that. i am also willing to listen to anyone else that wants to share. if it were enough to change my mind then i would. i just have yet to find anything to suggest that Christ is not Lord. There is no reason to get upset or angry. people need to figure out where they want to be and live with both the good and bad attention that comes with it. I am a Christian. I do my best to live as Christ would. (i make mistakes too) if you hate me for it, Chirst said you would so amen to that. if you love me for it then i'm glad to fellowship with you. I love all people and will pray for them all. God bless.

[leelover]

Originally Posted by analogbear

I see you have never dealt with the law before...That is why I referenced Italgirl in my previous statement; and, I would figure that from our previous discussions that you would see clearly that the tomayto vs. tomahto issue can only become more pronounced when we string lots of archaicly-sourced and translated words together, coupled with differences in education (there is nothing standard about any basic education here in the US anyway) regional biases, the various interpretations that have preceeded any current one (and there are several going on at the same time now) personal experiences both with language and the church, personal psychological and social development...The list of things that impact not only our deepest character traits, but also trivial matters about how a given word impacts or is defined by us, is broad, deep and significant. I submit again: there is NOTHING plain or simple about language...Some attorneys, for example, make Millions of dollars becoming experts in the turn of a handful of phrases or the interpretation of only 3 or 4 words...If the bible is as significant as people who believe in it say, I don't think any old personal/pop-culture interpretation is respectful.

Couple of conclusions to draw here:
If what you say is true then there is virtually nothing that we can read and trust the interpretation of.

You prove my point that people with an agenda twist what would be intuitively understood, to mean what they wish it to.

My earlier assertion stands.

Silly of you to assume that I have never dealt with the law. As you yourself have said, what happens in the courtroom is not necessarily real life, and certainly is not always the truth. I am looking past that type of play acting to what real people would think if they thought. I also gave some parameters.

Once again, do you have a specific area of text or verse you are calling into?

Originally Posted by analogbear

You proceed from the assumption that they don't lead to the same god, but if there is only one god, they must lead to him...

I didn't say there was "only one god". Once again, in your words "reread my post".

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by slorider18

all in all, it is Christ's desire that all should accept Him as their lord and savior and recieve eternal salvation. . God bless.

What, did my response PM not fully explain my position? Do you choose, like so many others, to look at the bible in a vacuum?

That is something you believe in, in the absence of, and contraventon of existing, rational evidence...No problem...(Somebody has to wear the cardboard signs on the freeway off-ramp...Less fortunate versions of you believers...Just kidding... )Folks who believe in the bible often replace intelligence, education, critical thinking, analysis, and reason with.......the bible...Petty scary to me, that one book of dubious credibility has so much persuasive power without any authority...As if George W. Bush was featured in a book about the glorious benefits of his American Foreign Policy, during his administration, written by Fox News.

Have you met, in a tangible physical sense jesus? If not, you are trusting in those fallable humans who recorded what he may or may not have said, and interpreted his "wishes"
If nothing else, just think about the ages of prophets and miracles...Why no miracles? Why, when we need such "meaning" in our lives, with messages of god so muddled and in conflict (and frankly, I have asked like 20 times about who is "right" when two honest and smart "believers" don't believe the same thing, and all I get is "I am right, he is wrong" which sound an awful lot like they want to be prophets of their own religion) why hasn't god come down and opened up a can of unequivocal whoop-ass? Why mince words and deeds now, when people are less ignorant, and could actually grasp the deeper part of the message? Seems pretty academic to me...This should be the age of miracles, with as close to global disaster as we have ever brought the world, and: silence from the holy trinity... With the terrible corruption, fornication, etc. of the modern world, why have biblical-style plagues NOT been visited upon the worst offenders? Why have the richer continued to gat richer, and the poorer continued to get poorer? The christian god, to quote al pacino in the Devil's Advocate: is an absentee landlord...If he exists at all...

[slorider18]

i was just making a statement not responding to you pm. and if that's what you want to call my belief that's fine. in regards to the last part of your post (i'm going to answer using the bible) when the religious leaders asked Jesus for a sign he pointed out they could discern the weather by looking to the sky, but they couldn't believe he was the messiah despite the miracles he preformed and said it was a perverse generation that would ask for signs, hence the the moral state of the world today. The plagues you speak of will come and God will come down and lay all questions to rest. When he will come back exactly i do not know. the signs he said to look for are all very visible though, so i think it will be sooner than later.

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by leelover

I didn't say there was "only one god". Once again, in your words "reread my post".

You said: same ultimate god. Since, according to the 10 commandments there is only 1 god, and you have said on a number of occasions that you believe in the 10 commandments, to you, based on your own beliefs as stated here ( if you are lying I can't be held responsible), there IS only 1 god...That being said, any path TO god(especially the god of judaism and islam as that is the christian god too), is at worst only misguided...But is a poor attempt to get to the same god. It has to be, unless YOU accept there are more gods out there, that those others worship, and that is their path. But, I think that violates part of the first commandment, to accept that there are other gods.

Regarding my assumption, sure, I assumed that; because you stated an absolutely ludicrous thing: that people would come up with the same interpretation of basic words yaddah yaddah if they had "relative" education...Dude, I have read parts of the bible, in several languages as we have discussed, and though I beleive I have far more and potentially greater education than you, I KNOW we don't interpret those words the same way. I am right, and YOU are wrong, since you keep dodging my very basic question...Just like ratchetman, it took him forever to say lakes of fire...What a bullshit hell. being forced to listen to the same crappy Bob Jovi sone, or anything by travis tritt is a far worse hell than lakes of fire...I am here to tell you that every group of two people finding the same interpretation of what you call basic words or language (of the bible's various phrases, too) is an absolte falsehood; and feel free to go to your local law library, and ask about how many different interpretations are there for the word "enterprise" in the United States Code...And that is something simple they were trying to explain simply, not any attempt to explain the infinite, the nature of god, the words of a prophet, or the meaning of life...

And, in one post you tell me NOT to look at the bible verse by verse, sentence by sentence, that I should look at it as a whole, in context, then when I call into question the whole as it stands in the context not just of itself but of history, the world, other religions etc., you want me to look at it line/verse by line/verse? How do you spell hippocricy?[sp on purpose!]

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by slorider18

i was just making a statement not responding to you pm. and if that's what you want to call me belief that's fine. in regards to the last part of your post (i'm going to answer using the bible) when the religious leaders asked Jesus for a sign he pointed out they could discern the weather by looking to the sky, but they couldn't believe he was the messiah despite the miracles he preformed and said it was a perverse generation that would ask for signs, hence the the moral state of the world today. The plagues you speak of will come and God will come down and lay all questions to rest. When he will come back exactly i do not know. the signs he said to look for are all very visible though, so i think it will be sooner than later.

Sorry, sorry, I will more thoroughly and on-point answer your PM with a PM...

That is cool.
The fundamental problem with religion is this:
If you are willing to accept the unproven and unsupported, except by literature, supernatural, why don't you believe in mummies that come back to life, vampires, werwolves, the Kracken, etc.?

because it would be ridiculous to do so. For me, it is also ridiculuous to believe in a virgin birth, a ressurection from actual death (when even now we get people who are in every eppearance dead, but wake up right before an autopsy) miracles about healing sick, etc...Walking on water? C'mon! These are propaganda to encourage belief in a really stand-up social leader...Jesus, the dude, had a lot of great stuff to say about how we should treat eachother, and live...But if you can't see through the bullshit used to help sell that message to pagans who believed in spirits, or Jewish church leaders who lost sight of the meaning of charity and humility, you really are ready to buy this bridge I have been looking to unload...

Look, I get your devotion, but check this out:

To believe without deeply studying other religions is being wilfully blind. Isn't the devil supposed to be a trickster? What better way to be that than by coopting the bible and the whole christian faith...Doesn't sound to crazy, if you add up all the people killed "in the name of God" over the years...

[analogbear]

I forgot:

Yes we can read and interpret, but then through discussion with others who have also interpreted, and been trained to interpret, a consensus of interpretation can be reached...I remember the first time I taught Kafka's In the Penal Colony...I needed to go back to an old prof to parse some language, see some additional metaphors, and gather a far deeper understanding than I could ever gain just by reading the words. And, though I think it is a signficant work, far greater than the Trial, Castle or even the famous Metamorphosis, I needed to be guided through finding the greatness of the book...The significance of the bible is incredible, even without any divine status...I think it should be afforded the same respect as a short story by a crazy german lawyer/philosopher, don't you guys?

[slorider18]

i do look at other religions. i can't claim i go super in depth because i don't make the time. but i try to get a good grasp of them. i also like to dialog with people when ever i get the chance. i am also open to anything anyone would like to share. i also believe that my god can do anything. so i have no problem believe in the virgin birth, the resurection or anything else in the bible. If i didn't think he were all powerful he would not be worthy of my faith.

If God were so obvious then there would be no need for faith. it's the willingness to trust that he asks for. I am willing to put that trust. He says look to the birds or the flowers of the field and the fact he takes care of them. How much more will he take care of me. So i put my trust in him.

as for the last part; The religious leaders tried that once. A house devided against itself cannot stand.

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by slorider18

If i didn't think he were all powerful he would not be worthy of my faith.

Can god create a rock that he can't lift?

What does it mean to be all-powerful?

Originally Posted by slorider

If God were so obvious then there would be no need for faith.

I get that. Well said. It doesn't address "to what or what is the nature of that to which I will attach my faith, but it is piercingly honest at least...

Originally Posted by slorider

it's the willingness to trust that he asks for. I am willing to put that trust. He says look to the birds or the flowers of the field and the fact he takes care of them. How much more will he take care of me. So i put my trust in him.

as for the last part; The religious leaders tried that once. A house devided against itself cannot stand.

I disagree about the last, and you kind of dodged my statement with a historical reference to the great schizm...I wrote a paper about that, and don't think that is what I was talking about, but whatever...

In Re: flowers/fields...As record numbers of species die every year, and the environment is clearly hurting in a big way, I think god is fcuking up just a bit...

[slorider18]

Originally Posted by analogbear

Can god create a rock that he can't lift?

What does it mean to be all-powerful?


I get that. Well said. It doesn't address "to what or what is the nature of that to which I will attach my faith, but it is piercingly honest at least...


I disagree about the last, and you kind of dodged my statement with a historical reference to the great schizm...I wrote a paper about that, and don't think that is what I was talking about, but whatever...

In Re: flowers/fields...As record numbers of species die every year, and the environment is clearly hurting in a big way, I think god is fcuking up just a bit...

as to the rock question, heard it a million times, still don't know, i'll ask when i see him.

i wasn't referencing a scism, but Jesus's responce to the pharasees in the gospel's.

Stuff is going to die. that's life (haha, that was funny) there are also one or two ecosystems that seem to make it from year to year without humans nursing them along. and last i checked the "green house effect", acid rain, eroding of the rain forest, blah blah blah is becuase humans have done it.

the world is dying and Jesus will return to gather his faithful, judge the rest and create a new happy earth and jeruselum where we will all get along and everything will smell like roses.

[leelover]

Originally Posted by analogbear

You said: same ultimate god. Since, according to the 10 commandments there is only 1 god, and you have said on a number of occasions that you believe in the 10 commandments, to you, based on your own beliefs as stated here ( if you are lying I can't be held responsible), there IS only 1 god...That being said, any path TO god(especially the god of judaism and islam as that is the christian god too), is at worst only misguided...But is a poor attempt to get to the same god. It has to be, unless YOU accept there are more gods out there, that those others worship, and that is their path. But, I think that violates part of the first commandment, to accept that there are other gods.

Regarding my assumption, sure, I assumed that; because you stated an absolutely ludicrous thing: that people would come up with the same interpretation of basic words yaddah yaddah if they had "relative" education...Dude, I have read parts of the bible, in several languages as we have discussed, and though I beleive I have far more and potentially greater education than you, I KNOW we don't interpret those words the same way. I am right, and YOU are wrong, since you keep dodging my very basic question...Just like ratchetman, it took him forever to say lakes of fire...What a bullshit hell. being forced to listen to the same crappy Bob Jovi sone, or anything by travis tritt is a far worse hell than lakes of fire...I am here to tell you that every group of two people finding the same interpretation of what you call basic words or language (of the bible's various phrases, too) is an absolte falsehood; and feel free to go to your local law library, and ask about how many different interpretations are there for the word "enterprise" in the United States Code...And that is something simple they were trying to explain simply, not any attempt to explain the infinite, the nature of god, the words of a prophet, or the meaning of life...

And, in one post you tell me NOT to look at the bible verse by verse, sentence by sentence, that I should look at it as a whole, in context, then when I call into question the whole as it stands in the context not just of itself but of history, the world, other religions etc., you want me to look at it line/verse by line/verse? How do you spell hippocricy?[sp on purpose!]

Once again you have missed the point. And then twisted what I actually said. And gone on with more off point stuff. You are probably right, you are much better educated. And yet...

I don't know why I would expect you to act like anything but a defense attorney.