If you believe in God:

*ratchetman* · 05-22-2007, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by analogbear

Mary was NOT a virgin...

That's just what you believe. You can't prove it, it's a part of your Agnostic faith.

Italgirl1971 · 05-22-2007, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slorider18

maybe someone will even get saved.

oy vey!

lol
i'm fairly certain it won't be me

Say Bear... have you read that book A Case for Faith? I hear it's written by a lawyer.

*ratchetman* · 05-22-2007, 11:03 PM

The gospel of Thomas appears to be a Gnostic text, not a part of the bible.

Italgirl1971 · 05-22-2007, 11:06 PM

its not part of the bible. i don't know if it wasn't included because its not written in the narrative, or perhaps it wasn't considered authentic (or sufficiently able to be authenticated?). but its some pretty interesting stuff in there!

*slorider18* · 05-22-2007, 11:10 PM

i have a case for faith, haven' read it though. there is another book i sugested to abear, i forget the title at the moment but i'll pass it along once i get home. both supposed to be excelent for you argumentative types.

analogbear · 05-23-2007, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratchetman

That's just what you believe. You can't prove it, it's a part of your Agnostic faith.

Agnostic is a condition, not a faith, and I am not agnostic either...try again!

analogbear · 05-23-2007, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slorider18

By having me participate in this test.
I say I have faith in my God's love.
So, to what am I attaching my faith? The love of God. OK.
What is the nature of a God's love? Wanting to spend time, sharing joy, happiness, sadness, etc, claiming they love me, a devotional gift of themselves (Dying on a cross)...OK..

My God does that.
To me, I have established that He loves me. OK.
Can I relate that to another? Because of the internet medium, I was forced to in the last step, because all of that might occur in my head, normally. So, I have established that I have faith in my God's love for me, so it is true that my God loves me, and that I have faith in the fact that my God loves me.

I am laughing at the flippant way you treated Aristotle's test. You can't witness the dying on a cross, so you cann't say it happened. I can say my kid made a card, because:there it is...You seriously disrespected what I had to say.

Then to throw a little winking thumb?

Unfortunately, you must first establish the truth of god's existence, and then the truth of your faith in god...Two things not so easily or flippantly done.

Tomorrow I will address your incorrect application of the test...I have to go feed a few christians to the lions...get back to god's work...

analogbear · 05-23-2007, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Italgirl1971

oy vey!

lol
i'm fairly certain it won't be me

Say Bear... have you read that book A Case for Faith? I hear it's written by a lawyer.

I have it, and unfortunately, like most lawyers I know who replace intellect and reason with convolution, legal reasoning (which is what, analogy, and so no reasoning at all, right?) and esoteric specialization, the author is an idiot at the same time both narrow-minded and obtuse...So though I read it, it was painful. I recommend instead the book from Freeman called: The Closing of the Western Mind: The rise of Faith and the Fall (death? I can't remember...) of Reason. It is neither anti nor pro secular humanism nor pro or can religion...It is merely expository, and really gives a nice voice to the context surrounding the church, and christianity in general. It is great, and really ties together a number of spiritual and secular sources, indicating the strengths and weaknesses of each, and then explores why religious fundamentalism is so seductive, even to the modern person.

I am so disappointed with some of the folks here on the dot org...I know I shouldn't expect scholarship or serious consideration of philosophical concepts that pose a direct challenge to their concept of faith, but I would hope that people who claim to be christian or spiritual would act that way...Speak humbly, encourage investigation, etc.

*slorider18* · 05-23-2007, 12:45 AM

you can't really be that offended at my post. i hope we can all take the little pokes with a grain of salt. i don't know if i will ever be able to "prove" anything for you. i have made my decision to put my faith in Jesus Christ as my lord and savior. I pray that all others will come to that same place with the most sincere hope for their salvation. But i do hope it comes from truely repentent heart.

analogbear · 05-23-2007, 1:15 AM

I'm not really offended. You have made an emotional decision, based on an emotion, and so your prayers are empty for those who don't believe. It is really easy to find/choose one path to follow, it is much harder to develop a certain level of understanding of many paths, and then be lucky enough to see how similar they all are...I guess that is my great sadness for all of the christians I meet...That they mistakenly think they have the answer, when they focus on the most minimal aspect of what Christ had to teach.

SamoanzRR · 05-23-2007, 3:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by analogbear

I'm not really offended. You have made an emotional decision, based on an emotion, and so your prayers are empty for those who don't believe. It is really easy to find/choose one path to follow, it is much harder to develop a certain level of understanding of many paths, and then be lucky enough to see how similar they all are...I guess that is my great sadness for all of the christians I meet...That they mistakenly think they have the answer, when they focus on the most minimal aspect of what Christ had to teach.

werd...thats what I feel....

analogbear · 05-23-2007, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratchetman

That's just what you believe. You can't prove [that mary was not a virgin].

Well, in the vein of "I'm rubber, you're glue..." It is not my "belief" but the conclusions drawn by biblical, midlle-eastern, and ancient-historical scholars after doing a lot of responsible research, not just looking at a couple of hundred pages of one book...
You can't prove that she was a virgin. And, I took her absolutely normal human/humping/breeding condition as as a "presumption," before I did a little reading on the various subjects involved with the idea, and all of the independently-supported material, from many sources, contradicts the traditional fable of the "virgin birth." Please understand, that scholars trace that concept back, through Zeus, to animal spirits cavorting with maidens to produce monsters and demi-gods and such...(Scholars now seem to agree that these were the first distinctly identified sociopaths or psychotics, who, given the horrible hygiene and dress of the day, probably did look like monsters...) Why is that important? Because it is that same supernatural idea that granted greater allure and mystique to JC...

*ratchetman* · 05-23-2007, 7:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by analogbear

Agnostic is a condition, not a faith, and I am not agnostic either...try again!

Agnosticism, atheism and other persuasions are faiths as far as I am concerned. It requires faith to adhere to these view points. What I have read of your posts so far seems to come from an Agnostic perspective.

*slorider18* · 05-23-2007, 7:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Italgirl1971

OK. Here's some question....

Jesus was born to Mary and Joseph, right? There is an Old Testament prophecy that the Messiah would be descended from David. Joseph was (purportedly) descended from David. But yet Jesus' mother, Mary, was also purportedly a virgin. So... shouldn't Jesus have been born to a female relative to David? Joseph's lineage is irrelevant in fulfilling the prophecy from the Old Testament.

And Matthew and Luke give the "paternal" lineage of Jesus (via Joseph, a man not Jesus' father if the Bible is to be believed). The preceding generations differ both in number and in name. Also, both Mathew and Luke get Joseph and Mary into Bethlehem for the birth of Jesus in entirely different ways. John says Jesus wasn't born in Bethlehem at all and his followers were surprised to find this out.

Any explanations??

the geneology given in mathew is through Joseph and gives the Legal kinship to david to fulfill prophecy, the geneology in luke is the biological line of jesus through mary that still leads to david. either way, jesus is of the house of david. hope that answers that.

mathew doesn't mention why they went to bethleham, luke does, john only states that the people were not sure where he came from, he was born in bethleham, but resided in nazareth.

Italgirl1971 · 05-23-2007, 7:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratchetman

Agnosticism, atheism and other persuasions are faiths as far as I am concerned. It requires faith to adhere to these view points. What I have read of your posts so far seems to come from an Agnostic perspective.

Agnostics believe in a supreme being but concede that we cannot know for sure the nature of things. This would be a faith the way I presume you are using the word "faith."

Atheists deny the existence of a god or gods. This is not a faith because there is no leap to be made - concluding that god doesn't exist is based on information, not on faith.

E_RacK · 05-23-2007, 7:22 PM

jehovah's witness. for what i know i know it's right for me. i'm not here to force my beliefs on others but the videos purple triangle and the documentary 'knocking' is well worth checiking out

*slorider18* · 05-23-2007, 7:27 PM

the JW's around here don't come to my house anymore. niether do the morman's. not sure why.

Italgirl1971 · 05-23-2007, 7:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slorider18

the JW's around here don't come to my house anymore. niether do the morman's. not sure why.

Last time the Mormons came by, I cut them off in the middle of "We're talking to some of your neighbors today about Jesus Christ the prophet....." I said "Yea, have a nice day with that." and slammed the door on them.

Either they won't be stopping here again, or they will just try harder. Not sure which yet.

*sinfuldragon* · 05-23-2007, 8:11 PM

they never stop at my house, every time I see them in the neighborhood I tie my dog up to one of the pillars on my front porch... none even try... guess they don't really wanna spread the word after all

*slorider18* · 05-23-2007, 8:43 PM

aren't pitbulls great????? i love mine too.

analogbear · 05-24-2007, 1:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratchetman

Agnosticism, atheism and other persuasions are faiths as far as I am concerned. It requires faith to adhere to these view points. What I have read of your posts so far seems to come from an Agnostic perspective.

And your ignorance rings true!

Atheism is the absence of faith in any "higher power," agnosticism is a skepticism about anything supernatural where faith is concerned...

Oh, and I am Jewish, not agnostic...

*ratchetman* · 05-24-2007, 8:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slorider18

the JW's around here don't come to my house anymore. niether do the morman's. not sure why.

I debate them on scripture, they don't seem to be able to defend their position very well, once is all it ever takes.

*ratchetman* · 05-24-2007, 8:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by analogbear

And your ignorance rings true!

Atheism is the absence of faith in any "higher power," agnosticism is a skepticism about anything supernatural where faith is concerned...

Oh, and I am Jewish, not agnostic...

I know what atheism is and it takes faith to believe that there is no "higher power" people just don't accept that it does. There is no such thing as a person of no faith, it is a question of what you put your faith in. Your definition of an agnostic seems to fit you rather well imo. So if you are Jewish then you should accept the Torah and the prophets. Even the Torah points to the Messiah. Are you still waiting for him or are you merely Jewish by descent and not belief?

analogbear · 05-24-2007, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratchetman

I know what atheism is and it takes faith to believe that there is no "higher power" people just don't accept that it does. There is no such thing as a person of no faith, it is a question of what you put your faith in. Your definition of an agnostic seems to fit you rather well imo. So if you are Jewish then you should accept the Torah and the prophets. Even the Torah points to the Messiah. Are you still waiting for him or are you merely Jewish by descent and not belief?

You're still wrong about atheism...It is the absence of faith...Secular Humanism is what fits your definition of atheism, actually.

Oh, and I am a Sikh...

analogbear · 05-24-2007, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Italgirl1971

Last time the Mormons came by, I cut them off in the middle of "We're talking to some of your neighbors today about Jesus Christ the prophet....." I said "Yea, have a nice day with that." and slammed the door on them.

Either they won't be stopping here again, or they will just try harder. Not sure which yet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sinfuldragon

they never stop at my house, every time I see them in the neighborhood I tie my dog up to one of the pillars on my front porch... none even try... guess they don't really wanna spread the word after all

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratchetman

I debate them on scripture, they don't seem to be able to defend their position very well, once is all it ever takes.

When I was a teenager in CT for the off-season, I would begin shooting a shotgun into the grass on the lawn as they walked around the neighborhood, and that was picked up by some of the other local teens, and soon