[bryan4980]

Originally Posted by analogbear

Deliberate wrongdoing in an earlier incarnarion is the cause of a karmic debt. However, though born into a negatively-enhanced incarnation in response, the initial wrong must be identified, or the debt can never be removed...That is the essence of the hindu caste system, isn't it? A variation (though actualy a precursor) of the idea of original sin, that permanent stain on the soul that whether you live justly or unjustly now, you're doomed if hindu to remain in your caste, and if christian, etc. you are doomed for hell or bound for heaven, but not because of any modern good works.

I was approaching it from the viewpoint that by being put into a poor situation due to karmic repercussions was the repayment for the bad things they had been done prior. I do see your point of repayment, however my view on it is that it is not a stain on the soul but that it derails you from attaining enlightenment.

[ratchetman]

Originally Posted by Italgirl1971

The "astute" individuals at Liberty University claim to have "evidence" that the Earth is only 10,000 years old. I'm just the messenger. Personally, I'm inclined toward the concept of carbon-dating......

So you have placed your faith in carbon dating. A method that is not with out it's problems. You have chosen to put your faith in carbon dating because it suits your purposes. The reason I say this is because you cannot prove that the method is reliable. You have simply chosen to place your faith in a method developed by someone, without being able to prove that all of their assumptions are correct. Perhaps the methods used but Liberty are more scientifically valid that carbon dating.

[bryan4980]

Originally Posted by analogbear

I am not too keen on the telekinesis thing...There have been NO reputable, repeatable, or objective tests that demonstrated successful psychokinesis...

Yes, however that would not be to say it is impossible. Are there any abilities that the minds of certain individuals possess that you do believe may be possible?

[bryan4980]

Originally Posted by slorider18

Bryan - Jesus did teach us to "love our neighbor".

Then why don't you as a religion do you not do that?

[ratchetman]

Corrections to radiocarbon dates.

Here is what I found on the very first link I followed when I did a search. Who knows what else could cause a sample to appear excessively old.

[ratchetman]

Originally Posted by bryan4980

Then why don't you as a religion do you not do that?

We don't? please explain

[bryan4980]

Originally Posted by leelover

So he can't prove it's genuine?

But you can prove, that is PROVE, it is not genuine? That's irrational!

The original question was not to prove it is wrong but to open your mind for once. I was hoping that someone of the christian faith would show some intellect and actually explore the idea, but unfortunately you have disappointed me.

[bryan4980]

Originally Posted by leelover

Were as you have evolved spiritually and/or karmicly enough to be something other than a peon?

No I do not claim to be better, I met an unintelligent response with an equally unintelligent response. You people refuse to actually think about what you are being asked and the only responses you are able to give is quotes from the bible. So far I have not seen any intelligent discussion from your side. Unless you forget I never said your way is wrong just to explore to make sure it is right for you, to which you attempt to prove it is right for all based on your propaganda and what you have been told.

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by ratchetman

I think I touched nerve
We accept as proof that which is acceptable to us.
The bible teaches that if you want to find God you have to seek him with your all mind and soul. There is only one place where God says we ought to test him, and that is in regards to tithing.

No nerve touched, beyond silliness...

No, we don't accept as proof acceptable things...That allows for a subjective analysis, and proof, leading to facts, is an objective analysis. The difference between proof and intuition is substantial, substantive, and makes the position of the religious person impossible. Because most religious people rely on their particular system of supernatural authority, their position can never be proven...There is as much reason to believe in any religion's supernatural plan as in werwolves, vampires, and the boogyman...As lee so astutely mntioned, no proof of the non-existence of a thing does not prohibit the existence of a thing...Unfortunately, while some ignorant people claim this to be axiomatic, it can't hold up under either a truth table or a formal proof, because in order to establish the existence of a thing there must be some evidence, intrinsic evidence, of the thing. Words written on paper claiming to be the testament of and to god does not establish any kind of evidence for the existence of god. In fact, now that I think about it, the mere existence of so many people who believe in god without any actual evidence or proof of the fact of god only supports one conclusion: evidence of a belief, an emotional belief, in god. IT DOES NOT PROVE THE EXISTENCE OF GOD.

So, let me refine my meta-position...

I accept the fact that there are people who feel like they believe in god.

I don't think they really do; and if anybody here was actually capable of a thought experiment, or was willing to be responsive to a short and rapid series of questions on the subject, I could prove they didn't really believe in god, they just feel like they do...Though I will admit that is a subtle enough difference that only myself and a few of my philosopher-friends would even dig on it...It would be a an admission that people emote about an emotion...Nearly a tautology, but logically significant...


Seeking with all of your mind seems to me to say to do research...One text with one unguided interpretation seems an awful lot like closed-mindedness...How can that be using all of your mind? I think this is one of the areas that people really have different interpretations of the translated language...All mind says analysis, not emotional faith...Can't god's plan hold up to a little critical scrutiny? I am not talking testing (that is below)...Just an analytical look at things relating to god...That seems clear from the statement you quoted...And, the soul part seems to follow after the mind-search, after the research and analysis: if you have done all the research, reviewed all or at least as many as possible, paths to god, then your search is half over...You must then "feel" god with your soul. It seems to me that I am actually a better christian than all of you, because I am actually looking at all of god through all of my mind, not like you guys...You seem to have skipped the all-mind part, and went right into all-soul part...

If god says we ought to test him, why does he get to determine the limits of the test? I have both taken and administered many tests, and not once was it part of the process to have the tested determine the limits of the test. Sorry, that seems like a selective edit or mistranslation...I take from that that god does want to be tested, and that he is not afraid of a little challenge...Only his supposed followers are...

[bryan4980]

Originally Posted by analogbear

And you should try the multi-quote feature, unless that is the work of the devil...

Bear you should now to them everything is the work of the devil, especially free thinking.

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by bryan4980

I was approaching it from the viewpoint that by being put into a poor situation due to karmic repercussions was the repayment for the bad things they had been done prior. I do see your point of repayment, however my view on it is that it is not a stain on the soul but that it derails you from attaining enlightenment.

I used stain the soul as a metaphor for enlightenment-prohibition, in a poetic license fashion...I like language.

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by ratchetman

Corrections to radiocarbon dates.

Here is what I found on the very first link I followed when I did a search. Who knows what else could cause a sample to appear excessively old.

But any disparate non-sequitor test does not invalidate the process...Several people die from antibiotics each year....So we should throw out their use?

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by bryan4980

Bear you should now to them everything is the work of the devil, especially free thinking.

[bryan4980]

Originally Posted by ratchetman

I think I touched nerve Here's a little story that might help put some perspective on this.

"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores." "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

Here's what Jesus said about people that wanted some proof.

"This is a wicked generation. It asks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah. 30For as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites, so also will the Son of Man be to this generation. 31The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with the men of this generation and condemn them; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one[i] greater than Solomon is here. 32The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here.

We accept as proof that which is acceptable to us.
The bible teaches that if you want to find God you have to seek him with your all mind and soul. There is only one place where God says we ought to test him, and that is in regards to tithing.

If it is truly turn the other cheek then why throw Lazarus to the fire why not allow him to repent and fix what he has done? Again this seems pretty petty that the creator of all would have so much hate, I guess this explains christianity.

[bryan4980]

Originally Posted by Italgirl1971

It all just seems so.... convenient! Let's say I'm some total whacko person who thinks they are literally God's gift. You bet your ass I'm going to talk a whole lot about the horrors that will befall you if you FAIL to believe what I'm telling you about there being someone/something in this intangible place - let's call it "Utopia" - who will never make himself/itself known or seen to you, but you just have to believe he/it is there because if you don't not only will all the aforementioned horrors await you, but, well, you simply won't get to see Utopia... a place that you can only see once you die and only IF you live in a manner which pleases the invisible Utopian emperor. So do good things... or else! It sounds too much like a very elaborate fable.

It sounds like a religious version of the medieval times, which I do not think is coincidence.

[bryan4980]

Originally Posted by ratchetman

The reason I say this is because you cannot prove that the method is reliable. You have simply chosen to place your faith in a method developed by someone, without being able to prove that all of their assumptions are correct.

How is that different from you? Please answer without quoting the bible, that is if you can.

[bryan4980]

Originally Posted by ratchetman

We don't? please explain

Salem witch trials for one, the crusades for two. These are just off the top of my head.

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by Italgirl1971

It all just seems so.... convenient! Let's say I'm some total whacko person who thinks they are literally God's gift. You bet your ass I'm going to talk a whole lot about the horrors that will befall you if you FAIL to believe what I'm telling you about there being someone/something in this intangible place - let's call it "Utopia" - who will never make himself/itself known or seen to you, but you just have to believe he/it is there because if you don't not only will all the aforementioned horrors await you, but, well, you simply won't get to see Utopia... a place that you can only see once you die and only IF you live in a manner which pleases the invisible Utopian emperor. So do good things... or else! It sounds too much like a very elaborate fable.

I love the commercial aspects of it...So, they get tax free real estate, no tax paid on collections, any art/gold/structures they have are considered non-profit, and their employees have to do vey little for their room, board, and mercedes with driver...They live in opulent --though perhaps frugally-furnished-- homes/apts, they get to relaocate on someone else's dime if they screw up, they get to open schools and such, and because of their status they get very little gov't oversight (though I freely admit that parochial schools here in the northeast are often much better than the typical public, the idea of private education under the college level is chilling to me).

All for a pay-off that comes after you die...Selling a product you never have to deliver...Only suckers, I mean customers, I mean the faithful, need approach; but PT was right...One born every minute...

The bible has no method...

[bryan4980]

Originally Posted by analogbear

I used stain the soul as a metaphor for enlightenment-prohibition, in a poetic license fashion...I like language.

However do you believe that wrongdoing stops your path until you correct the wrongdoing or delays you until enough good karma can be given to displace the bad karma?

[bryan4980]

Originally Posted by analogbear

I love the commercial aspects of it...So, they get tax free real estate, no tax paid on collections, any art/gold/structures they have are considered non-profit, and their employees have to do vey little for their room, board, and mercedes with driver...They live in opulent --though perhaps frugally-furnished-- homes/apts, they get to relaocate on someone else's dime if they screw up, they get to open schools and such, and because of their status they get very little gov't oversight (though I freely admit that parochial schools here in the northeast are often much better than the typical public, the idea of private education under the college level is chilling to me).

All for a pay-off that comes after you die...Selling a product you never have to deliver...Only suckers, I mean customers, I mean the faithful, need approach; but PT was right...One born every minute...

The bible has no method...

However their schools in Chicago are horrid, not the school itself but the teachers.

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by bryan4980

However do you believe that wrongdoing stops your path until you correct the wrongdoing or delays you until enough good karma can be given to displace the bad karma?

I suspect that to be useful, any stoppage of developmental path must have a corrective component...How does one develop if lessons are not learned? Are we not doomed to repeat our failures -and isn't deliberate wrongdoing an ethical failure?- unless we learn from them? Mere delay of path-resumption is like prison is now...Useless, given the high rates of recidivism...

Originally Posted by bryan4980

However their schools in Chicago are horrid, not the school itself but the teachers.

Sorry about the schools...

[bryan4980]

Originally Posted by analogbear

Sorry about the schools...

Don't be it opened my eyes and lead me to where I am now.

[leelover]

Originally Posted by Italgirl1971

My point in all of this is that, over time, perspective can and likely will change from its original. And I suspect that is the sheepdom which Bear speaks of - that after 2000 years have passed, there are still those who do not question the words on paper. their (the words') intent may no longer remain true where it once was clear.

One more time to you also, I am trying to explain that I am not misinterpreting you, but find your statement inaccurate.

This is why:

Perspectives do change over time, and across culture. I don't know who the "sheepdom" is who do not question the words. Most Biblical Christians I know study the Bible in both the English and the root languages it was written in. I believe the word's intent has withstood the test of time.

Of course, this is religion we are talking about. What ANY of us believe will not be ultimately "proven" till we are done with this life. It is up to us to gather relevant information that will help us to be what God intends us to be here and in the life beyond. Not go off on a tangent that suits our own selfish purposes, and doesn't hold us responsible.

[bryan4980]

Originally Posted by leelover

Of course, this is religion we are talking about. What ANY of us believe will not be ultimately "proven" till we are done with this life. It is up to us to gather relevant information that will help us to be what God intends us to be here and in the life beyond. Not go off on a tangent that suits our own selfish purposes, and doesn't hold us responsible.

The religion that I follow accepts all other religions and all that someone does with the one exception "and it harm none so mote it be"
So at the core of your beliefs do you believe the same? It is beginning to sound like you may.