[analogbear]

Originally Posted by onevcs

Tell that to the classical gods, Romans or Greeks.
If you and everyone else professing the same faith stops following it, that'll give you a good leverage...

I am not sure, unless we are talking about the Go'auld version, that Chronus gives a flying f.

[leelover]

So, because bad things happen to the innocent you won't accept that there is a God?
And because we are born innocent Original sin does not apply?
I know that many will say the Bible is not worthy of their acceptance, but what does it say about these ideas?

I realize my experience is insignificant in the face of recorded history, but it is rather important to me. And the same is true of all of us. What we "know" is grounded in what we have experienced, whether it is firsthand, or learned from a book or others. The standards we accept to ratify what we accept as "true" may vary personally at the level beyond that accepted by society as a collective group.
To me, if an idea, or concept, or whatever, does not work out in practice and observation, it does not matter much if it is "accepted". I started to explain that as I have observed the behavior of myself and those I come in contact with, I have found the principles taught in the Bible regarding sin and selfish motivation to be universally true (and I was very opposed to this idea when the process started). I think that warrants further study. I think the concept of Original sin as taught by the Bible makes sense, if you take the time to read it before you dismiss it. Of course so many who consider themselves to be "open minded", and rational, who advocate the study of all things before committing to any, don't bother to do that with the work known as "God's Word". I am not saying that the fact that it is called that makes it that, but rather if you are going to have a strong opinion of whether it is true or relevant you should make an effort to understand what it says.
In my incomplete beginning statement regarding why I think the Bible is right, I had not reached the point in saying that I have studied varying religions, not completely, I am still examining what they believe at their core. All the results are not in yet, I doubt they will ever be with the variety of beliefs to consider. But that does not mean that I should not commit to the one that I am see being true. Does that mean that I pass judgment on those who don't agree with me? NO! But I would like the chance to explain what the Bible says regarding situations in life, and why I do think it is important and more relevant to us.
I can't, and don't want to convince anyone that my way of thinking is better. That is up to the person doing the contemplating to decide. I think that we should all look at the full picture.

[onevcs]

Originally Posted by leelover

So, because bad things happen to the innocent you won't accept that there is a God?
And because we are born innocent Original sin does not apply?
I know that many will say the Bible is not worthy of their acceptance, but what does it say about these ideas?

I realize my experience is insignificant in the face of recorded history, but it is rather important to me. And the same is true of all of us. What we "know" is grounded in what we have experienced, whether it is firsthand, or learned from a book or others. The standards we accept to ratify what we accept as "true" may vary personally at the level beyond that accepted by society as a collective group.
To me, if an idea, or concept, or whatever, does not work out in practice and observation, it does not matter much if it is "accepted". I started to explain that as I have observed the behavior of myself and those I come in contact with, I have found the principles taught in the Bible regarding sin and selfish motivation to be universally true (and I was very opposed to this idea when the process started). I think that warrants further study. I think the concept of Original sin as taught by the Bible makes sense, if you take the time to read it before you dismiss it. Of course so many who consider themselves to be "open minded", and rational, who advocate the study of all things before committing to any, don't bother to do that with the work known as "God's Word". I am not saying that the fact that it is called that makes it that, but rather if you are going to have a strong opinion of whether it is true or relevant you should make an effort to understand what it says.
In my incomplete beginning statement regarding why I think the Bible is right, I had not reached the point in saying that I have studied varying religions, not completely, I am still examining what they believe at their core. All the results are not in yet, I doubt they will ever be with the variety of beliefs to consider. But that does not mean that I should not commit to the one that I am see being true. Does that mean that I pass judgment on those who don't agree with me? NO! But I would like the chance to explain what the Bible says regarding situations in life, and why I do think it is important and more relevant to us.
I can't, and don't want to convince anyone that my way of thinking is better. That is up to the person doing the contemplating to decide. I think that we should all look at the full picture.

I agree with you on some levels and I am very glad to see that you allow some freedom of faith and you are interested in comparing religions. I think that's very healthy.
On the other hand, I'm still not one in a position to decide if a higher power exists or not. Thus far I don't believe so. I was brought up catholic within a family of doctors and scientists. I was always taught to reach my own conclusions and sometime in my late teens my faith shuttered and my doubts took over. I started questioning the core of my believes, and even while teaching communion classes to 8 year old kids, I started to drift away from religious believes and more toward a scientific, proof based, way of thinking.
By its own definition, faith lacks proof, otherwise it would be fact. At this point in my life I don't need to believe. In the future... who knows.

Sorry for the rant...

[analogbear]

Too many books are claimed to be the word of god for me to take any of them seriously AS the word of god.

I find the idea of "original sin" to archaic, and refuted by scientific evidence regarding the evolution of several homonid species simultaneously several million years ago. To believe in original sin, as I understand it, you must believe in paradise, temptation by the devil into eating an apple from the tree of knowledge, and a casting out from this paradise. Original, then, is that indelible stain on ALL souls from the casting out...This seems like too many assumptions to really be accurate historically. I suspect that the story is really a warning not to learn too much, to keep faith rather than gain knowledge, that learning is somehow evil, and that we will pay a price for learning too much. As a device, that might be effective...Stain all innocent souls? A little to macabre for my tastes.

[leelover]

I don't think that it is complete to say that the Bible teaches "a stain on all souls".
Adam and Eve began a heridity of sin when the gave their right to rule the world over to satan.

[leelover]

Originally Posted by onevcs

I agree with you on some levels and I am very glad to see that you allow some freedom of faith and you are interested in comparing religions. I think that's very healthy.
On the other hand, I'm still not one in a position to decide if a higher power exists or not. Thus far I don't believe so. I was brought up catholic within a family of doctors and scientists. I was always taught to reach my own conclusions and sometime in my late teens my faith shuttered and my doubts took over. I started questioning the core of my believes, and even while teaching communion classes to 8 year old kids, I started to drift away from religious believes and more toward a scientific, proof based, way of thinking.
By its own definition, faith lacks proof, otherwise it would be fact. At this point in my life I don't need to believe. In the future... who knows.

Sorry for the rant...

nice One! Very reasonable!
I may have to forgive you for reaching 1000 post before me yet!

[cyclones66046]

Here is the problem I'm having. When I read the bible, I'm reading someone's
interpretation of God's word. Well my interpetation of what I read is different then someone else. In the bible it says God created the heavens and earth in 7 days. What is a day to God??? Is it the 24 hr clock that we use? Some would say yes. I say a day to God could be a 1000 years.

It is all how it is interpretated. So with that said. Maybe we are just an ant farm for God to watch and see what happens. One of many in the universe.

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by leelover

I don't think that it is complete to say that the Bible teaches "a stain on all souls".
Adam and Eve began a heridity of sin when the gave their right to rule the world over to satan.

Tomato, tomahto...To say we are posessed of a soul, and then that we are born innocent but with sin, means our souls' are stained with that sis...It sure can't be our life that is stained...

How did they give their right to rule the world? That presumes satan exists...No evidence of that. I remember the story...You sa you interpret the story that way. I don't.

[analogbear]

Taken from the wikipedia. I know, a free resource, but as I only need it for the broad strokes, it is alright. I would NEVER use it as more than just the most superficial source.

Some branches of Christianity fully accept the tradition of Adam and Eve as portrayed in the Bible, and although some hold various views expressed in the Pseudepigrapha, they do not accept the later Jewish Midrash.
The story of Adam and Eve forms the basis for the doctrine of original sin, a doctrine that is held as true by many branches of Christianity, but is not shared by the Orthodox[11] or Congregationalist churches, nor by Judaism[citation needed] nor The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. "Sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned," said Paul of Tarsus in his Epistle to the Romans, writing in Greek about 58.[12][13] St Augustine of Hippo (354-430), working with a Latin mistranslation of the epistle, understood Paul to have said that Adam's sin was hereditary: "Death passed upon (i.e. spread to) all men because of Adam, [in whom] all sinned".[14] Original sin, the concept that man is born in a condition of sinfulness and must await redemption, became a cornerstone of Christian theological tradition, primarily in Western-rite churches.
Over the centuries, a system of uniquely Christian beliefs has developed from the Adam and Eve story. Baptism, which predates Christianity has become understood as a means of washing away the stain of hereditary sin in some churches. In other branches of Christianity, baptism is a means of washing away sins that were actually committed by the person being baptised. It is an identification with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is a ceremony of spiritually washing one in the blood of the Savior, which was shed on the cross. In still other Christian traditions, this process is merely seen as a symbol of faith and also an initiation, or a public declaration of faith.[15] Additionally, the serpent that tempted Eve was interpreted by some to have been Satan, although there is no mention of this identification in the Torah. In fact, Genesis does not even hint at any of these readings, and their observance by many Christians has marked the religion's radical break from its parent.
Because Eve had tempted Adam to eat of the fatal fruit, some early Fathers of the Church held her and all subsequent women to be the first sinners, and especially responsible for the Fall. "You are the devil's gateway," Tertullian told his female listeners in the early 2nd century, and went on to explain that they were responsible for the death of Christ

This variability in source of the story, interpretation, mistranslation, and lack of universal christian application, leads me to accept this tale as more of a metaphor for a variety of issues, rather than any validity of the hereditary beginnings of man, casting out of paradise, or permanent original sin.

[MR_TiGGer]

I must confess I always find myself mystified with all these deep discussions about Christianity, especially in the Western world.
To explain: We're reasonably certain how old this planet Earth is, about 5 billion years old. We know that Mankind is a rather complex result of some stunning evolution, it's not like we all just appeared one day, and all spoke the same until that whole Babel incident.
We know that China was possably the most advanced civalisation, pre dating the western world by about 5000 years in terms of culture and development, let alone ancient Greece, Egypt. After all 200 years ago we in UK and our decendents in the Empire around the globe thought that bathing was bad and there's no need to wipe your arse after the messy stuff, resulting in an very short lifespan in comparison.
And as far as recent religious beliefs, we have Flat Earth, Earth centre of the universe, a bible that was written as much as 300 years after the whole Loaves & Fishes party, burning of Witches (A particularly stunning sexist exercise to control Women)
Now the Priests themselves who apparently have direct line to the big dude, getting into alter boys on an alarming scale without being struck down by lightning just for the mere thought, and a President launching what evidence would suggest to be "The Crusades Part Deux" in Gods name.

All in all I think that Faith could be a fine thing IF the believers actually did the things that would allow them access past those Big Gates, and not do the things that will end in an eternity in the really hot place.
So much contradiction in this whole Christianity thing. The Vatican is one of the richest organizations in the world, yet so many of their followers are so far below the poverty line they had to dig their own holes.

If there ever was a God then all evidence would suggest he's packed his things and retired to the spiritual equivalent of Florida indefinitely, there's little evidence in the world to prove otherwise.

As you can probably detect I'm not a follower of any faith, and whilst I'll not knock anyone who Truly believes deep in their soul and lives their life in a fashion that follows those beliefs to the letter, and I'm not talking about the loonys who consider violence against others who worship the 'Wrong God'

After all "Thou shalt not kill" ??? Then what the **** exactly is going on in Iraq right now?? The other 9 commandments are just as pointless in the 21st century with far too many people, we can justify pretty much anything ........ with the right lawyer!!

Anyways just my take on the whole thing, from the other side of the fence so to speak

[sinfuldragon]

Okay here is my very short winded take on this matter. I myself don't believe however I'll never be so audacious as to look a believer in the eyes and tell them they are wrong, why? because who am I to try to crush someone's belief? I won't try to change anyones mind by trying to point out fact, trying to distort fact to suit my arguement, or even an elaborate lie to entice them over to my side. I say if your belief makes waking up in the morning a good thing then ****in roll with it and don't feel you have to defend yourself/belief/god to anyone.

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by sinfuldragon

Okay here is my very short winded take on this matter. I myself don't believe however I'll never be so audacious as to look a believer in the eyes and tell them they are wrong, why? because who am I to try to crush someone's belief? I won't try to change anyones mind by trying to point out fact, trying to distort fact to suit my arguement, or even an elaborate lie to entice them over to my side. I say if your belief makes waking up in the morning a good thing then ****in roll with it and don't feel you have to defend yourself/belief/god to anyone.

Nice. I would never tell anyone they are wrong. I would also never tell anyone they are right.

[sinfuldragon]

Originally Posted by analogbear

Nice. I would never tell anyone they are wrong. I would also never tell anyone they are right.

I wouldn't tell them they were right either, I normally just leave this topic alone because as "open minded" as everyone says they are..... 99% don't give a **** what you have to say, they are just waiting to tell you why you are wrong and how they are right

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by sinfuldragon

I wouldn't tell them they were right either, I normally just leave this topic alone because as "open minded" as everyone says they are..... 99% don't give a **** what you have to say, they are just waiting to tell you why you are wrong and how they are right

Yeah, but, I get like that to; though usually about the process of exchanging ideas. I am kind of a stickler for the rules of argument, and ascertaining fact by proof, truth by justification (both in an Aristotilean and Cartesian sense), and refuting most claims to the right-ness of faith, belief, emotion, or feeling as mere opinions that are no more "true" than any appreciation I might have for both Rage Against the Machine, and The Bee Gees...That varies from person to person and is very personal.

[sinfuldragon]

Originally Posted by analogbear

Yeah, but, I get like that to; though usually about the process of exchanging ideas. I am kind of a stickler for the rules of argument, and ascertaining fact by proof, truth by justification (both in an Aristotilean and Cartesian sense), and refuting most claims to the right-ness of faith, belief, emotion, or feeling as mere opinions that are no more "true" than any appreciation I might have for both Rage Against the Machine, and The Bee Gees...That varies from person to person and is very personal.

Yeah but you're like that because you're a dick

[leelover]

I would not want to tell you were right OR wrong...

[sinfuldragon]

Originally Posted by analogbear

Do you believe that your religion, path, personal spiritual belief, or dogma is the right one?

Never answer the origianl question.... Yes I belive that I have chosen the right path, why else would I chose this one?

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by leelover

I would not want to tell you were right OR wrong...

As I stated earlier, I agree with that, primarily because of the "If one is right, the other is wrong" issue.

Originally Posted by sinfuldragon

Never answer the origianl question.... Yes I belive that I have chosen the right path, why else would I chose this one?

Your path may be the right one for you, but if there are areas of conflict between your path and someone else's, you must leave open the possibility that either (or possibly both) of you is wrong. This is that exclusivity principle. If most religious dogma was actually accepting of other religions, this wouldn't be a problem. But, most spiritual texts, organized congregations, societies, etc. claim their path to be the exclusive path to god, heavan, salvation, valhalla, nirvana, whatever...I find that exclusive idea without merit.

Originally Posted by sinfuldragon

Yeah but you're like that because you're a dick

No doubt. But that doesn't mean I'm wrong...

[sinfuldragon]

I actually hope that I am wrong. I hope there is a track in the sky where falling doesn't hurt and gas/tires are free (or whatever anyone else's version of heaven would be). I'm just not able to put blind faith in something. I don't close my eyes while I ride because I have faith that the atoms that make up my bike know that wrecking will only hurt them and I won't follow rules that sound very man made in order to get to this great place. If I'm wrong I'll be the first one to stand at the pearly gates and say well ****, at least I had a good run. Science while blundering often at least does bring physical evidence to the table to support their side.

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by sinfuldragon

I actually hope that I am wrong. I hope there is a track in the sky where falling doesn't hurt and gas/tires are free (or whatever anyone else's version of heaven would be). I'm just not able to put blind faith in something. I don't close my eyes while I ride because I have faith that the atoms that make up my bike know that wrecking will only hurt them and I won't follow rules that sound very man made in order to get to this great place. If I'm wrong I'll be the first one to stand at the pearly gates and say well ****, at least I had a good run. Science while blundering often at least does bring physical evidence to the table to support their side.

Exactly. Although I understand there is value in pure belief, sanctimony, certainty, or self-righteousness in mere faith is ridiculous. We must allow for the possibility that we are not some special part of someone else's cosmic plan. How arrogant a species are we?

[sinfuldragon]

One thing is for sure.... we'll all find out who is right in a matter of time

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by sinfuldragon

One thing is for sure.... we'll all find out who is right in a matter of time

Even that presumes some stuff, right?

That there is an afterlife, not mere decomposition.
That we will be capable of understanding what is going on then, in relation to this corporeal existence.
That we will care.
That we will all have the same or shared post-death experience...

There are so many assumptions that must be adopted and maintained to be a real person of faith, I have sincere doubts about the actual faith of most people.