[analogbear]

Originally Posted by leelover

Anaolgbear, somehow you seem to miss the point, it may be "historical FACT", but you assume it was recorded accurately with no bias.
So the process with which we end up with the modern Bible is full of agenda's, but all the other records are perfect? The Gnostic Gospels are Fact?
Please answer my question regarding the way the Bible is used to control people, if you are able.

I do not take the GG at face value, either. Nice try, but that series of texts and interpretation does, as you suggest, promulgate a particular agenda...I am using several different referents, some that are explicity pro Christ, some anti-Christ (not in the damien sense...) to ascertain the history of that time, in which Christianity was but a blip. Therefore, there was no Pro or Con Christ agenda as you intimate there might have been. I use secular history, not spiritual history to ascertain the physical events of a given time. I will leave it to much greater-minded spiritual scholars to indicate any significance...To use a metaphor, Think of the secular history as what happened. Think of spiritual accounts as a dramatized "what," with a mythological explanation why. This "why" can never be known, but can only be felt, or emoted-in, as true.


I am able.

First I will address whom, then to what end, and how, if that is OK.

Who is controlled:

The bible purports to be the word of god. So, for those people swayed by the "word of god," the bible is pursuasive.

The bible has been interpreted by clergy as forming the basis of a god-approved way to live, the clergy being an authority that was indistinguishable from political authority until around 1500AD, so for those people swayed by authority and what "the" authority says, the bible is pursuasive.

Islam, Judaism (for at least the old testament) and ALL branches of Christianity hold some reverence for the bible, as either the aforementioned word of god or, at a minimum, a revered testament to the word of god. So, for those persons who are muslim, jewish, or christian, the bible is (to one degree or another) pursuasive.

So, that means, calculating all jews, muslims and christians, more than 50% of the world population is, at this point, pursuaded by the bible.

The "to what end" and "How"

Ten commandments (obey authority, and don't touch other people's stuff). Loving thy neighbor(stop fighting with eachother over stupid stuff, you're all in this together), turning other cheek(violence is not the way to end conflict), etc. All the platitudes that come from the bible become intimate forms of speech, "truisms" or principles...These PLATITUDES are what "the pursuaded" now use instead of ACTUALLY THINKING. Think about the passages banning masturbation(better to lay with a whore than spill seed on the ground), or those regarding being fruitful and multiplying(increase christian population to win the religious war by attrition)...Or rendering unto the sovereign what is his (pay your taxes), which are, in no uncertain terms, tactics designed to allow the clergy and sovereign (one and the same, really, until 1783) to control not just the external behavior of the people at large, but HOW THE PEOPLE BOTH LOOK AT THE WORLD, AND MAKE WORLDLY DECISIONS. This is the ultimate in population, social, mind-control. The bible arguably gives us an ethical template with which to live our lives. The problem really comes when there is conflict on either a particular ethical rule, or between moral principles, both brought on by the challenge of another religious text or paradigm for god. The first commandment has allowed so much bloodshed in the name of god, and continues to do so.

To my opinion, and this one thing is my opinion in this one limited sense: to kill in the name of god, using the bible as an authority to do so, is without logic, reason, or consideration. As such, it takes the bible-professed idea of freewill out of the picture.

Opinion over, back to analysis:
This is a constant contradiction with modern bible-interpretation. Not just with the killing, but with a wide variety of concepts. The bible can be, just like staistics, twisted to suit the purposes of anyone well-versed in the words, with no scruples as to their real meaning.

Decide what you will do for yourself, not just do what others of "your kind" are doing. However, the bible is not an authorty, and to treat it as such is to allow others to present a limited selection of choices from which you choose your life paradigm.

[MR_TiGGer]

[analogbear]

Thanks, but more interestingly, given all of the above, I still find lessons from the bible to be of great value.

[leelover]

Originally Posted by analogbear

The "to what end" and "How"

Ten commandments (obey authority, and don't touch other people's stuff). Loving thy neighbor(stop fighting with eachother over stupid stuff, you're all in this together), turning other cheek(violence is not the way to end conflict), etc. All the platitudes that come from the bible become intimate forms of speech, "truisms" or principles...These PLATITUDES are what "the pursuaded" now use instead of ACTUALLY THINKING. Think about the passages banning masturbation(better to lay with a whore than spill seed on the ground), or those regarding being fruitful and multiplying(increase christian population to win the religious war by attrition)...Or rendering unto the sovereign what is his (pay your taxes), which are, in no uncertain terms, tactics designed to allow the clergy and sovereign (one and the same, really, until 1783) to control not just the external behavior of the people at large, but HOW THE PEOPLE BOTH LOOK AT THE WORLD, AND MAKE WORLDLY DECISIONS. This is the ultimate in population, social, mind-control. The bible arguably gives us an ethical template with which to live our lives. The problem really comes when there is conflict on either a particular ethical rule, or between moral principles, both brought on by the challenge of another religious text or paradigm for god. The first commandment has allowed so much bloodshed in the name of god, and continues to do so.

These are conclusions that YOU draw. There is absolutely nothing in the Bible telling anyone not to think for themselves. In fact the teachings of Christ in particular, encourage believers to search there own hearts and deal with themselves according to common sense, looking to the end result of behavior.
The ten commandments are not rules to control populations as you suggest, but rules of nature.

Originally Posted by analogbear

To my opinion, and this one thing is my opinion in this one limited sense: to kill in the name of god, using the bible as an authority to do so, is without logic, reason, or consideration. As such, it takes the bible-professed idea of freewill out of the picture.

Yes that would be my opinion too. Who is advocating killing in the name of the Bible? Not me, and no one who reads it and trusts God.

Originally Posted by analogbear

Opinion over, back to analysis:
This is a constant contradiction with modern bible-interpretation. Not just with the killing, but with a wide variety of concepts. The bible can be, just like statistics, twisted to suit the purposes of anyone well-versed in the words, with no scruples as to their real meaning.

So maybe we should advocate reading it and interpreting it for what it says, rather than to suit someones purpose.

Originally Posted by analogbear

Decide what you will do for yourself, not just do what others of "your kind" are doing. However, the bible is not an authorty, and to treat it as such is to allow others to present a limited selection of choices from which you choose your life paradigm.

Your statement assumes that I belong to some kind of club that dictates what I think. Read the book and make your own decision.
Are you also under the impression that I have always believed the way I do know and never considered anything else?

[leelover]

Originally Posted by MR_TiGGer

Who are you bowing to there Tig?

[leelover]

Originally Posted by onevcs

I AM MY OWN GOD.

Yeah I was that too. I didn't fufill the responsibilities very well.

[leelover]

Originally Posted by analogbear

Thanks, but more interestingly, given all of the above, I still find lessons from the bible to be of great value.

But only what YOU decide is important...

[sinfuldragon]

Originally Posted by leelover

But only what YOU decide is important...

I have found that regardless of belief everyone seems to only pick out the parts that THEY find important

[leelover]

Originally Posted by sinfuldragon

I have found that regardless of belief everyone seems to only pick out the parts that THEY find important

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by leelover

But only what YOU decide is important...

Sure. Only the lessons, not the sanctimony. Self-righteousness is never important, or shouldn't be. But, as I said, that is interpretation. You do it your way, I will do it mine. I know that any spiritual import of the bible is negligible, but that doesn't diminish its secularly-applicable principles for good living.

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by leelover

There is absolutely nothing in the Bible telling anyone not to think for themselves. In fact the teachings of Christ in particular, encourage believers to search there own hearts and deal with themselves according to common sense, looking to the end result of behavior.

Which may be how you read this new translation, but admit, it goes against nearly 2000 years of interpretations.

Originally Posted by leelover

The ten commandments are not rules to control populations as you suggest, but rules of nature.

The first commandment is supernatural, not natural.

Originally Posted by leelover

Yes that would be my opinion too. Who is advocating killing in the name of the Bible? Not me, and no one who reads it and trusts God.

George W Bush.

Originally Posted by leelover

So maybe we should advocate reading it and interpreting it for what it says, rather than to suit someones purpose.

Sounds Great! I am on board.

Originally Posted by leelover

Your statement assumes that I belong to some kind of club that dictates what I think. Read the book and make your own decision.
Are you also under the impression that I have always believed the way I do know and never considered anything else?

Don't mistake my use of the impersonal you...I didn't mean YOU you.

[sinfuldragon]

Originally Posted by leelover

are you kidding me? I would safely say 99.9% of people see what they want to see and nothing else. Its right when they want it to be and wrong when it suits their needs.

[leelover]

Originally Posted by analogbear

Sure. Only the lessons, not the sanctimony. Self-righteousness is never important, or shouldn't be. But, as I said, that is interpretation. You do it your way, I will do it mine. I Believe that any spiritual import of the bible is negligible, but that doesn't diminish its secularly-applicable principles for good living.

Fixed that for you!

[leelover]

Originally Posted by sinfuldragon

are you kidding me? I would safely say 99.9% of people see what they want to see and nothing else. Its right when they want it to be and wrong when it suits their needs.

Really?
I hope you are wrong! That is not what "Christianity" is about at all.
I know of many who really read it and try to apply the lessons to their lives, no matter how uncomfortable they may be.
You may find that you are pre judging people based on your beliefs.
No offense meant here, but you are making your judgements on what you think the Bible says without firsthand knowledge.

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by sinfuldragon

are you kidding me? I would safely say 99.9% of people see what they want to see and nothing else. Its right when they want it to be and wrong when it suits their needs.

I am that.1%.

[sinfuldragon]

Lee, let me first say that I admire your ability to blindly believe in something that no one can prove. Secondly let me ask... What happen in your life that makes you so sure in your belief?

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by leelover

Fixed that for you!

[sinfuldragon]

Originally Posted by analogbear

I am that.1%.

I would like to think that I am as well since well I just don't give a ****, however I would assume that I have been in a position were I have had one too many or perhaps I was just in a bad mood and bend the words of the bible to suit my side of the discussion. Noticing this is why I try to not partake in the very discussion that I'm part of now... Oh well in it too deep now to back out.

[leelover]

Originally Posted by analogbear

Which may be how you read this new translation, but admit, it goes against nearly 2000 years of interpretations.

How I read it? What does it say? You have the chance to make right 2000 years of misinterpretations, will you do it, or just ignore the true meaning?

Originally Posted by analogbear

The first commandment is supernatural, not natural.

It sure is! Does it have no natural application?

Originally Posted by analogbear

George W Bush.

Judge not... But I tend to think he may not read and believe all of it.

Originally Posted by analogbear

Sounds Great! I am on board.

I am VERY glad to see this! But, you still have to read all of it, not just the parts that fit your paradigm.

Originally Posted by analogbear

Don't mistake my use of the impersonal you...I didn't mean YOU you.

OK!

[leelover]

Originally Posted by analogbear

I am that.1%.

NO, I am!!!!
We can't both be, that would be like .2% or sumthin...

[sinfuldragon]

There are not too many people on "your side" during this discussion. I admire your ability to not get defensive during the all of this as most would.

Originally Posted by leelover

How I read it? What does it say? You have the chance to make right 2000 years of misinterpretations, will you do it, or just ignore the true meaning?



It sure is! Does it have no natural application?



Judge not... But I tend to think he may not read and believe all of it.





I am VERY glad to see this! But, you still have to read all of it, not just the parts that fit your paradigm.



OK!

[leelover]

Originally Posted by sinfuldragon

Lee, let me first say that I admire your ability to blindly believe in something that no one can prove. Secondly let me ask... What happen in your life that makes you so sure in your belief?

Whoa, whoa, whoa!!!!
BLINDLY believe? What are you talking about! Know one, at least not me, would blindly believe.

The answer to your question is long. I have seen many things happen in my life and those close to me that justify (hi, AB!) my conclusion that the Bible is true.

The first and possibly most important was the total debasement of my belief in myself as a "good" person. If you are honest before God you cannot justify any of your behavior or motives. I had to face the fact that I was what I really was: a sinner.