[leelover]

Originally Posted by sinfuldragon

Perhaps but to invision a father figure in the sky that will punish you for doing wrong... yeah I'm not biting. Furthermore why would you want to go to heaven? A place where there are no questions because you know the answers. I don't know about you but I ride rollercoasters because they are scary, I ride my bike hard on the track because of the what if factor. If you strip all doubt then what do you exist for? who wants to know all the answers? If you know all and know how its going to turn out then what do you have left to do? just sit on your cloud, not pondering anything, not wanting to figure out how something works, not remembering anyone that you loved here on earth... if thats heaven take me off the list. I don't want to know it all. I want to wonder what if. I want to take the risk and not know that I will make it out okay. I want to love my family for the rest of my life and then some. I would rather lose the love of my family in death than not remember them in heaven. I am happy to die and help the grass grow greener because at least then I'm a part of something. while its nothing grand I am at least adding to life. here is something that has gotten me for a long time, why don't animals go to heaven? I have a dog that I give more respect to than most humans. She is more loyal than most that I have met and if ANYONE deserves a life in bliss I would give my spot so that my dog could go. I'm not a bad person as a whole I would gladly give my life so that ANY member of my family could live a better life, I go to work every day to provide my children with things that I didn't have. I go out of my way to help others that I don't know or that I don't have any ties to, yet I'll be denied eternal bliss due to the fact that I don't believe this magical man in the sky? come on... is this really the final straw that will measure if we are worth having eternal bliss?

All this sounds very familiar to me too. I don't know you, but I don't doubt that you are telling the truth here. Good job, IMO, btw.
First off, where did you get this deffinition of heaven? It is not Biblical. You are making a lot of assumptions regarding what it will be like. I think we are not able to comprehend what heaven will be like.
Is gaining Heaven all that Chritianity is about? Not according to the Bible.
Not to mention that your requirement to get in is not Biblical.

[sinfuldragon]

Originally Posted by leelover

All this sounds very familiar to me too. I don't know you, but I don't doubt that you are telling the truth here. Good show, IMO, btw.
First off, where did you get this deffinition of heaven? It is not Biblical. You are making a lot of assumptions regarding what it will be like. I think we are not able to comprehend what heaven will be like.
Is gaining Heaven all that Chritianity is about? Not according to the Bible.
Not to mention that your requirement to get in is not Biblical.

All the answers to what heaven will be like can be found in the New Testament under Revelations. I suggest you read that chapter before telling me that no one knows what heaven will be like and can't fathom it. It is described in detailed about the layers of heavens, the twelve gates, and the feeling of joy. If you want to know everything about it then please read all of Revelations. If you want to know what heaven will look like then read Revelations 21:1-22:5.

1. Eternal day: Rev 21:25 ~ 22:5
2. Physical comfort:

• • no hunger, thirst or neat: Rev 7:16
  • no death or pain: Rev 21:4

1. Emotional comfort: No morning or crying: Rev 21:4

this is where I got my version of heaven.... from the bible I would call that biblical

[leelover]

Originally Posted by sinfuldragon

All the answers to what heaven will be like can be found in the New Testament under Revelations. I suggest you read that chapter before telling me that no one knows what heaven will be like and can't fathom it. It is described in detailed about the layers of heavens, the twelve gates, and the feeling of joy. If you want to know everything about it then please read all of Revelations. If you want to know what heaven will look like then read Revelations 21:1-22:5.

1. Eternal day: Rev 21:25 ~ 22:5
2. Physical comfort:

• • no hunger, thirst or neat: Rev 7:16
  • no death or pain: Rev 21:4

1. Emotional comfort: No morning or crying: Rev 21:4

this is where I got my version of heaven.... from the bible I would call that biblical

Yes I see what you mean, and you are right.
But your earlier post makes assumptions based on the biblical description you cited that are not substantiated.

[leelover]

I think the description in Revelations, and the others in the Bible are accurate, but that they don't give us all the details.
Things like: Will you remember people, will animals be there, what will we do there all the time, are not described fully.
Plus the Bible says that we will be changed, what is important to us now my have no bearing on us at that time.
I have often thought of it this way: When we were in the womb we had no concept of what life would be like after birth. We could not have. I think our attempts to understand the afterlife from this one are similarly limited.

[sinfuldragon]

But don't we have to guess at what it means, wouldn't it be on a per reader basis? Since we have no one who had gone and come back (we have many who say they have but for some reason just aren't creditable people). Are we really able to substanciate anything from the bible?

[leelover]

Maybe what rewards us and gives us joy will be on a per person basis.
I hold no interest in sitting on a cloud playing a harp forever. Or any of the other things that traditionally describe heaven include.
The Bible says regarding Heaven that we will experience joy forever. I don't know if we are able to comprehend that at this point.

There are many things that can be substantiated from the Bible concerning patterns of human behavior, laws of nature, spiritual situations.

[sinfuldragon]

Originally Posted by leelover

Maybe what rewards us and gives us joy will be on a per person basis.
I hold no interest in sitting on a cloud playing a harp forever. Or any of the other things that traditionally describe heaven include.
The Bible says regarding Heaven that we will experience joy forever. I don't know if we are able to comprehend that at this point.

There are many things that can be substantiated from the Bible concerning patterns of human behavior, laws of nature, spiritual situations.

Come on man... don't knock the harp

[leelover]

Originally Posted by sinfuldragon

Come on man... don't knock the harp

I am not...just would prefer a sweet '59 Les Paul 'Burst, or maybe a 335 dot, or a one off custom made to my exact specs...oh yeah, and the talent to actually use any one of the above!

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by leelover

Whoa, whoa, whoa!!!!
BLINDLY believe? What are you talking about! Know one, at least not me, would blindly believe.

Perhaps you don't, but most do, blindly believe. I stiil have doubts about your faith; I think, from an epistemological perspective, you cannot justify it, but that is another discussion.

Originally Posted by leelover

The answer to your question is long. I have seen many things happen in my life and those close to me that justify (hi, AB!) my conclusion that the Bible is true.

The first and possibly most important was the total debasement of my belief in myself as a "good" person. If you are honest before God you cannot justify any of your behavior or motives. I had to face the fact that I was what I really was: a sinner.

I find your lack of faith disturbing...You cannot decide that you are a sinner and use that justify belief in sin. That is so circular it is ridiculous. To debase yourself in some way, maybe as some variety of junkie or abuser or abuse victim is no reason to "believe" that your debasement is somehow part of some master-plan by god. That, like how in AA they tell you to admit you are powerless, is more propaganda without merit. This is the temporal and corporeal world, and without enough strength and power, the drunk can't stop drinking. Too often this limits our personal responsibility. How? By taking away not our wrongs, because as "sinners" we have plenty of wrongs, but in fact the use of god takes away our successes. When we do the bad thing it was us, but when we do the great thing it was the glory of god? Talk about mind-control...

Originally Posted by sinfuldragon

There are not too many people on "your side" during this discussion. I admire your ability to not get defensive during the all of this as most would.

Usually, the skeptics are the minority here, so na na na na-na na .

Originally Posted by leelover

Nope! You look at the evidence and weigh it to see if it worthy to justify your belief.
If we say we only trust what can be "proven" we are all deluding ourselves.

Here we will never agree. You cannot look to a presented path, and then see if it fits you. That is ass-backwards. There is an idea called a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you look to religious texts (or really only just one primary text for most folks) before you search for your own path to find your answers, and then make a choice from those texts, unless you are insane, you will back up that choice with your now-proven belief, or sense of the truth, or sense of having come to the truth.

However, to begin the journey without preconceptions, without bias, and without any dogma is really the way to approach any area you respect enough to study. Einstein was able to suspend all belief in his knowledge of god, the physical universe, all of science as it was known in the 20's and 30's and approach the idea of theoretical physics from a fresh slate.

Don't find a book that fits, and then re-establish that it fits...Well.
Try something new. Look to all or none, beyond the supernatural, and develop your own path. If god is as kind and powerful as the bible (and most other texts suggest) he will do nothing but reward the investigation, and will not be offended in the least.

Delusion gets it root in an unfounded belief or a distorted apprehension (knowledge of, not fear of) of sensory data.

To trust that which cannot be proven or justified is to delude yourself. That doesn't make a person bad, pathological, or too different from the norm, though.

Originally Posted by leelover

I think that is great, it sounds very familiar to me.
I really don't think it is possible to actually walk it out without the "supernatural stuff". I don't think our human standards are high enough, or complete enough.

I completely disagree. Without the supernatural stuff, it is Humanity doing the right thing after coming to what to do on their own. With the supernatural, the final appeal as to "why" will be the supernatural: fear of hell, desire for heaven, salvation, god said so, etc. None of that stuff is necessary to help you live a good life. Here is where a need to deeply-study other religions comes into play: If you look at nearly every one of the organized spiritual affiliations, you will find similar principles and lessons, all told by the parable device. Why? Not because any of the stories are actually true, but because: that level of intellect that allowed language allowed our elevation from the mere ape, and the ability to teach requires language (don't go all Helen Keller on me, those insect-like taps eventually led to English...), and stories that produce emotional, intellectual, and factual responses promote the most neurons to record the pathe, hence the strongest memory. Story, metaphor, parable, allegory, etc...These are all powerful ways to pass on lessons. Lessons that are independent from the characters, supernatural situations, and ficticious dialogue of the stories.

Originally Posted by leelover

Maybe what rewards us and gives us joy will be on a per person basis.
I hold no interest in sitting on a cloud playing a harp forever. Or any of the other things that traditionally describe heaven include.
The Bible says regarding Heaven that we will experience joy forever. I don't know if we are able to comprehend that at this point.

There are many things that can be substantiated from the Bible concerning patterns of human behavior, laws of nature, spiritual situations.

I like the heaven of "what dreams may come" the idea of crafting your own. I don't mean to say I believe in it, I am not yet ready to drop the curtain on my beliefs, but that version of the afterlife was interesting.

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by leelover

I am not...just would prefer a sweet '59 Les Paul 'Burst, or maybe a 335 dot, or a one off custom made to my exact specs...oh yeah, and the talent to actually use any one of the above!

I like the ones from the early 80's. Affordable, sweet, and modern humbuckers that don't wear out...Freaky little grains of carbon...

[analogbear]

I have been playing the drums since 1976, but I write music on a '72 strat with new active pick-ups, a custom rosewood fb, and an equally modern FR locking trem syst, my dad's Fender Dual Showman, 2- 2x12, and (sorry) a Pandora from 1997.

[analogbear]

Oh, Ididn't violate the strat, it was molested when I got it. I just personalized it.

[leelover]

Originally Posted by analogbear

Oh, Ididn't violate the strat, it was molested when I got it. I just personalized it.

No problem here, I have taken some liberties with my Strat, too

[analogbear]

Yeah, kinda sad to see the scars, but there is something cool about a personalized guitar.

[sinfuldragon]

I don't dare take mine apart, something tells me it would sound like crap when I got it back together.

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by sinfuldragon

I don't dare take mine apart, something tells me it would sound like crap when I got it back together.

Yeah, my first attempt at adjusting the intonation on a semi-hollow body (my dad's prized gibson...Boy was I in trouble...Almost as much as when I put my foot through the resonator of my Grandpa's banjo) resulted in the b and e breaking, the bridge flying off, and literally watching the neck start to bend back as the pressure released...

[sinfuldragon]

Originally Posted by analogbear

Yeah, my first attempt at adjusting the intonation on a semi-hollow body (my dad's prized gibson...Boy was I in trouble...Almost as much as when I put my foot through the resonator of my Grandpa's banjo) resulted in the b and e breaking, the bridge flying off, and literally watching the neck start to bend back as the pressure released...

If that aint worth an ass beatin or two I don't know what is

[analogbear]

I guess we have abandoned the more on-point posts. I still didn't get a response for the big post before the guitar stuff.

[sinfuldragon]

Originally Posted by analogbear

I guess we have abandoned the more on-point posts. I still didn't get a response for the big post before the guitar stuff.

Would have responded but don't think it was directed towards me.
What exactly IS your belief?

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by sinfuldragon

Would have responded but don't think it was directed towards me.
What exactly IS your belief?

It wasn't directed at you. I was just editorializing on the abandonment of the g-stuff...

Well, as for what I actually believe:

Ucnwlnd, cndoiw nfvtcow nvhlow,aphj, ...Han .sbeo.

That about sums it up.

[sinfuldragon]

Originally Posted by analogbear

It wasn't directed at you. I was just editorializing on the abandonment of the g-stuff...

Well, as for what I actually believe:

Ucnwlnd, cndoiw nfvtcow nvhlow,aphj, ...Han .sbeo.

That about sums it up.

Oh yeah I've heard of that... really booming over in China

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by sinfuldragon

Oh yeah I've heard of that... really booming over in China

Actually, I am a bit sensitive about what I believe. My faith is very personal, and I tend to try to practice what I preach...I would argue that: for religious freedom; and a separation between church and state; and religious tolerance; and no fundamentalism; and no death because of a different interpretation of god; all to have any meaningful place in our world at all, we ought to keep our interpretations of god out of the public sphere.

[analogbear]

I would also have some credibility issues, if I were to start spouting beliefs without logic, with a professional philosophical organization; and several legal-professional organizations require me to censor myself all the time; and, as I am afraid of persecution by certain dot orgers, I shall deal with my specific sprituality in a PM only. The process, however, and any critique of HOW someone got to what they believe (including me) is fair game.