[slorider18]

Romans 1:20 says,"Since the creation God's invisible qualities... have been clearly seen... so that men are without excuse." (NIV) Here Paul is saying that God reveals himself to all men(women). Numbers 14:18 states, "The Lord is slow to anger, abounding in love..." The bible states that it is the Lords desire that none should perish but all atain mercy. As a christian I have to believe that it's the Lord's plan to reveal himself to everyone or else He is not righteous and just.

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by slorider18

Romans 1:20 says,"Since the creation God's invisible qualities... have been clearly seen... so that men are without excuse." (NIV) Here Paul is saying that God reveals himself to all men(women). Numbers 14:18 states, "The Lord is slow to anger, abounding in love..." The bible states that it is the Lords desire that none should perish but all atain mercy. As a christian I have to believe that it's the Lord's plan to reveal himself to everyone or else He is not righteous and just.

Does he reveal himself differently for and to different groups of people (jews, muslims, buddhists, shintos, etc)?

If not, the originally-posted question (from post 1, page 1) still stands.

If so, how can the different faiths be reconciled with eachother, when they are so different in many ways?

[leelover]

Originally Posted by steingar

The real pity about Christianity is that the beautiful pacifistic philosophy has been absolutely perverted with time, and now the whole emphasis is on who goes or goes not to heaven. It started as something far more profound and greater.

I don't think it is possible to separate the philosophy behind the teachings of Christ and the impact of what He did on the Cross. And what it means to us.

steingar, I would like to hear what you believe Christianity started as. Being serious, and no disrespect.

[leelover]

Originally Posted by SG1-954RR

But basically thats the option; If a person did not know how to come to god and used the internal guidelines or laws, that person would try to develop a system to find out more or possibly even to please the Divine, and then encourages others to pursue this method, thus creating another faith. the "It worked for me! Why not you?," approach.

So, the original question was regarding Christianity, and that is put forth in the Bible, then lets go with what it teaches.
IF there was a God (as the Bible teaches), and He created man as portrayed, then man as a species would have sprung from the original male and female. Having intimate fellowship with their creator, they would know Him fairly well. This knowledge would be passed on to their descendants, one would suppose. Obviously, not all the descendants chose to act within the frame work of what was pleasing to God. As the knowledge of the Lord was passed on it was perverted to fit that which was comfortable to the one doing the passing on.

That does not nullify the original law. When I stated that we don't know what provisions God made to make His law known, I did not mean that He left it open for interpretation. I meant that we only assume that other civilizations have had no exposure to the God the Bible teaches. If it were successfully repressed and replaced with something else, would we know it?

Originally Posted by SG1-954RR

-If the law is written in our hearts already, there is no need for an outside faith to tell us how to act, it would already be implicit, we would know what to do and how to do it, without a guiding religion or a need for a savior.

The law IS written on our hearts, we do know right from wrong. But do we always abide by it? Do we "fudge" when we want something, but hold others to the letter of the law? There needs to be a Standard that is above human interpretation.

The need for a Saviour is something beyond knowing what to do.

[leelover]

Originally Posted by slorider18

Romans 1:20 says,"Since the creation God's invisible qualities... have been clearly seen... so that men are without excuse." (NIV) Here Paul is saying that God reveals himself to all men(women). Numbers 14:18 states, "The Lord is slow to anger, abounding in love..." The bible states that it is the Lords desire that none should perish but all atain mercy. As a christian I have to believe that it's the Lord's plan to reveal himself to everyone or else He is not righteous and just.

God reveals Himself to all.
Are we paying attention? Did we not like what we saw? Was it uncomfortable?

Maybe it's easier to make a god to fit our image of what he would be like...

Maybe the faith is not easy, or automatic.

[slorider18]

Originally Posted by analogbear

Does he reveal himself differently for and to different groups of people (jews, muslims, buddhists, shintos, etc)?

If not, the originally-posted question (from post 1, page 1) still stands.

If so, how can the different faiths be reconciled with eachother, when they are so different in many ways?

Romans 1:21-23 states, "Because, knowing God, they did not glorify Him as God, neither were thankful. But they became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man, and birds, and four-footed animals, and creeping things." (sorry such a long quote)

Here the same men that God revealed himself to have changed what he revealed Himself as into something that fit them better. ie other religions. This verse is referring to other "false" religions and their idols. That they willing exchanged God for something that better suted what man wanted. Unfortunately the bible teaches that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation. There is no other way. It's a hard truth, but a truth none the less. That's why God wants everyone to have the opportunity to accept or reject Christ. I'll try to be shotter next time, but sometimes you just can't cut corners.

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by slorider18

Romans 1:21-23 states, "Because, knowing God, they did not glorify Him as God, neither were thankful. But they became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man, and birds, and four-footed animals, and creeping things." (sorry such a long quote)

Here the same men that God revealed himself to have changed what he revealed Himself as into something that fit them better. ie other religions. This verse is referring to other "false" religions and their idols. That they willing exchanged God for something that better suted what man wanted. Unfortunately the bible teaches that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation. There is no other way. It's a hard truth, but a truth none the less. That's why God wants everyone to have the opportunity to accept or reject Christ. I'll try to be shotter next time, but sometimes you just can't cut corners.

However, with the exception of Islam, the other faiths I mentioned above preceded Jesus Christ...So, how can god hold us to the "Jesus Standard" before Jesus even existed?

That is why I mentioned the two follow-on questions.

If the only way to salvation is through Jesus, what happened to the souls that approached heaven BEFORE Jesus existed?

Or:

If god presented appropriate paths to those who existed on earth before JC, why are those paths NOT divine?

[slorider18]

Originally Posted by analogbear

However, with the exception of Islam, the other faiths I mentioned above preceded Jesus Christ...So, how can god hold us to the "Jesus Standard" before Jesus even existed?

That is why I mentioned the two follow-on questions.

If the only way to salvation is through Jesus, what happened to the souls that approached heaven BEFORE Jesus existed?

Or:

If god presented appropriate paths to those who existed on earth before JC, why are those paths NOT divine?

God has existed longer than anything. John 1:1, "In the beginning was the word...and the word was God." Those that lived before Christ came to earth were under the levitical law that God gave to moses to instruct the people with. Isreal was supposed to adhere to the law to enter eternal communion with God. When they sinned or broke the law God gave provision for sacrifice to atone for those sins. The Purpose of the law was to show that man is incapable of achieving salvation based on works. Jesus Chirst was sent as the ultimate sacrifice to fulfill the law once and for all. Upon His crusifiction He went to abraham's bossom, which is where all the "righteous" who had died before Christ's death had been waiting, and took them to heaven. The later part of Galations ch. 3 goes over the fact that there was no salvation in the law, but it was a "instructor" (greek). And that we are saved by our Faith in Christ which allows us to partake, as his chosen people, his promise of salvation.

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by slorider18

God has existed longer than anything. John 1:1, "In the beginning was the word...and the word was God." Those that lived before Christ came to earth were under the levitical law that God gave to moses to instruct the people with. Isreal was supposed to adhere to the law to enter eternal communion with God. When they sinned or broke the law God gave provision for sacrifice to atone for those sins. The Purpose of the law was to show that man is incapable of achieving salvation based on works. Jesus Chirst was sent as the ultimate sacrifice to fulfill the law once and for all. Upon His crusifiction He went to abraham's bossom, which is where all the "righteous" who had died before Christ's death had been waiting, and took them to heaven. The later part of Galations ch. 3 goes over the fact that there was no salvation in the law, but it was a "instructor" (greek). And that we are saved by our Faith in Christ which allows us to partake, as his chosen people, his promise of salvation.

But this reasoning sounds very circular, to me. Reread it, without bias. Doesn't really track, does it? So get back to first causes: How can people who preceded JC, Moses, David, etc, ever come to salvation? Quoting the bible doesn't answer the question, man...I could grab quotes and manipulate their meaning, even if the english, spanish, italian, latin, greek, russian and dutch versions could even be reconciled with eachother, or represented any of the original gospels. I am really trying NOT to make those textual appeals, because the matter is not a textual one. I am not trying to be difficult, but answer the question rationally, without appeal to a mythological text.

How can someone with no knowledge of Christ or God's laws delivered by Moses ever be saved? (which presumes a belief in original sin...A very politically polemic concept).

Plain language, making sense, with no circular reasoning, please.

[slorider18]

Originally Posted by analogbear

How can someone with no knowledge of Christ or God's laws delivered by Moses ever be saved? (which presumes a belief in original sin...A very politically polemic concept).

Plain language, making sense, with no circular reasoning, please.

If we can say that God is real. And if we can say that He is a just and fair God. The He is required to offer salvation on a personal level to all men in order to be a just and fair god. If we can say that God is the creator of the heavens and the earth, then we can say that God can and will do whatever is neccessary to give his offer of salvation to every man on a personal level. Whether it be through his word, missionarys, supernatural experience...

As far as circular thought. If God is all knowing, then we can speculate that God had a plan for Christ to die as the ultimate sacrifice from the beginning.

I hope that is a little better. If anyone would like a scripture reference to any ideas i write feel free to ask.

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by slorider18

If we can say that God is real. And if we can say that He is a just and fair God. The He is required to offer salvation on a personal level to all men in order to be a just and fair god. If we can say that God is the creator of the heavens and the earth, then we can say that God can and will do whatever is neccessary to give his offer of salvation to every man on a personal level. Whether it be through his word, missionarys, supernatural experience...

As far as circular thought. If God is all knowing, then we can speculate that God had a plan for Christ to die as the ultimate sacrifice from the beginning.

I hope that is a little better. If anyone would like a scripture reference to any ideas i write feel free to ask.

Still doesn't answer the pre-christ/moses, etc issue, even if god had a "plan" because those deaths preceded JC on the cross and Moses...So what, did god just keep those souls in limbo while he waited to send his "son" to earth to die? I dunno, that sounds a bit fishy to me.

How do you know --not think, feel, emote, believe...But KNOW that the people who were on earth before Moses (for more than 35,000 years before, mind you) came to earth with the "levitical law" of god?

What happened to them when they died?

Almost no evidence of monotheism exists before the jews (the first real monotheistic religion), so it seems that god was allowing earlier peoples to celebrate many gods instead of himself, since they had no other frame of reference...

Doesn't that seem to confound the first commandment?

I will now look to your argument, premise by premise:

I don't think you can say god is real, as that requires too much definition of method and parameter to determine what is real...My hate for anchovies is real, but how is that in any way a significant thing, or a proveable thing?

But, for the sake of this argument, I will grant that god exists.

How can one say, given the very small experience we have with god, that he is a just and fair god? Look to the murder and rape of innocents, natural disasters, slaughter of creatures big and small, wasting of natural resources, and the abject suffering of like 80% of the world population; and, on a sample size issue, within in the nearly infinite universe, we have only a few thousand years of experience with the idea of this "god" on one small planet with only a couple of ancient and probably inaccurate texts (given the realities of history, translation, and the political way in which ecumenical power was handled through time) on which to base our understanding.

But, again for this argument, I will grant you that he is a fair and just god.

Now, I don't think it logically follows that a just and fair god is required to offer salvation, nor is the creator of the heavens and earth "required" to do anything at all...Why would he do anything to offer salvation to those who don't know, don't believe, or refuse to accept salvation? That doesn't make sense.

But, for the sake of this argument I will grant you that god is compelled, by his nature as a just and fair god and creator of the universe, to offer salvation, and do anything necessary to give this offer of salvation on a personal level to all men.

Now, I am not at all sure that we hear his word; I am not sure that missionaries speak for him; and I am not sure that there exists any supernatural component to this nature and mission of god at all.

But, for the sake of your argument, I will grant you that god attempts to offer salvation through his word, missionaries, and the supernatural.

So, it seems you have several premises and multiple conclusions within your argument:
1 God exists.
2 God is a just and fair god.
3 If god is real, and a just and fair god, then he is required to offer salvation to all men on a personal level.
4 God is the creator of the heavens and earth.
CONCLUSION: If god is the creator of the heavens and earth, he will do whatever is necessary to offer salvation including supernatural events, textual references, and missionary work...


It doesn't track.

Let us look to deductive reasoning to see if you established your argument.

To be a valid deductive argument, the truth of the premises must make necessary the truth of the conclusion.

Certainly you see how your argument fails to meet this standard, as there is no established premise that god will do anything more than offer salvation, there is no premise that indicates clearly that he will do "anything" and yet that is integral to your conclusion. Additionally, there is nothing in your premises that establishes the word of god, missionary work, or the supernatural. You make no claims about the omnipotent nature of god, so how can he do anything supernatural after shooting his load creating the universe?

Well, there is always inductive reasoning...

To be a cogent inductive argument, the truth of the premises make more likely the truth of the conclusion.

Here I think you are OK.

Perhaps a just and fair god, who does exist, might have to offer salvation to all men personally, and as the creator of heaven and earth, he might use anything including the supernatural, his word, and missionary work to do it...Cool...


Of course, that means that he might alter his method of delivery to something a particular person might understand...He might change the story a little bit to offer salvation to someone who believes in a different god or set of gods, though, right?

Wouldn't having different stories to offer salvation, to teach lessons, and encourage good living be within the "everything god could do" description?

And, if god created the heavens and earth, why would he be hung up on a particular story, or few hundred pages of an old book or books, when the salvation of men's souls is his real focus?

How does having several testaments to the divinity of god diminish him? Or diminish his believers?

Wouldn't it be a more appropriate nature for a god who: created heaven and earth, who is required to offer salvation, and would do anything he could including the supernatural to offer salvation to people personally, to allow multiple paths to salvation? To have multiple "truths?" It certainly seems within his power...

[steingar]

Originally Posted by leelover

steingar, I would like to hear what you believe Christianity started as. Being serious, and no disrespect.

I suspect that Christianity started out like Judaism, which was much more concerned about life on earth than anything heavenly. However, Christ thought that the endless rituals of Judaism were largely unnecessary, and preached a wonderful philosophy of pacifism, love and understanding of one's fellow man.

As I understand it, the emphasis on the afterlife really didn't come about until the middle ages, when Europe was desperate and underpopulated. I suspect that life was sufficiently horrid for the general populace that they had to have some comfort in their religion, and that's where the emphasis on heaven came from.

[leelover]

Originally Posted by steingar

I suspect that Christianity started out like Judaism, which was much more concerned about life on earth than anything heavenly. However, Christ thought that the endless rituals of Judaism were largely unnecessary, and preached a wonderful philosophy of pacifism, love and understanding of one's fellow man.

As I understand it, the emphasis on the afterlife really didn't come about until the middle ages, when Europe was desperate and underpopulated. I suspect that life was sufficiently horrid for the general populace that they had to have some comfort in their religion, and that's where the emphasis on heaven came from.

Thanks

[JeepinJeff]

I wish I were an Aztec.

[leelover]

Originally Posted by JeepinJeff

I wish I were an Aztec.

Really?
Do you really know what life was like for them?

[leelover]

Originally Posted by steingar

I suspect that Christianity started out like Judaism, which was much more concerned about life on earth than anything heavenly. However, Christ thought that the endless rituals of Judaism were largely unnecessary, and preached a wonderful philosophy of pacifism, love and understanding of one's fellow man.

As I understand it, the emphasis on the afterlife really didn't come about until the middle ages, when Europe was desperate and underpopulated. I suspect that life was sufficiently horrid for the general populace that they had to have some comfort in their religion, and that's where the emphasis on heaven came from.

The Bible doesn't teach that Jesus thought the rituals were unnecessary, but that the rituals in and of themselves lack power or real meaning. Read His words in Matt. 23 regarding the Pharisees. Basically they honor God with their lips but their hearts are far from Him.
He did not come to abolish, or disregard the Law, but to fulfill it.
He Himself became the ultimate sacrifice, ending the need for the Temple sacrifices, and many of the traditional rituals.
The philosophy of pacifism that he taught is actually the fulfillment of the Law that one would place the importance of others above themselves.
If only mankind would follow His words! But NONE do. I don't believe we are able to without the indwelling of His Spirit. That is what "Born Again" means, not some label to describe a sect.

I personally don't think that the "emphasis" should be on the afterlife. The afterlife will come. We cannot prove what it will be like.
If we are going to talk about "God" as a person or concept, the supernatural is going to be inevitable, IMO. If that is true, then what comes after this life is going to be on the menu.
It is something each of us will deal with, guaranteed!

[steingar]

I certainly was not trying to address your own personal belief system, but rather comment about how I myself see Christianity based on my interactions with Christians.

[leelover]

I understand what you mean.
It is unfortunate that many of those who wear a Christian label are not portraying what Christ taught.

[steingar]

Sorta like Harley riders trying to pass themselves off as bad-ass bikers.

[leelover]

Now Wait a Minute! Are you trying to imply that riding a Harley doesn't automatically make you Bad Ass?!?!

You are flirting with blasphemy!

[slickwill]

Sorta like Harley riders trying to pass themselves off as bad-ass bikers.

That is too funny...

Just wasted way to much time searching for the little ROTFL smilies.

[leelover]

Originally Posted by slickwill

Just wasted way to much time searching for the little ROTFL smilies.

Dude, they are just to the right if you use the "post reply" button...