[leelover]

Originally Posted by analogbear

I would say to anyone who thisks he or she believes in the bible (as written in english, and found in america) "Please, honor and discover the true history of the document (because, wouldn't that be part of god's plan too?); and if you wish to believe, do so with your eyes wide, not burried in the sand.

Please go ahead and flesh out what you find wrong with the true history.

[ratchetman]

What churches have you been in where the clergy opposes reading the bible? I've been in a few and I have alway heard that I should read for my self. My ancestors were persecuted by the Catholic church because they believed they should think critically and read the bible.

analogbear may not want to be labeled but it is a certainty from his writings that he is an Agnostic

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by ratchetman

What churches have you been in where the clergy opposes reading the bible? I've been in a few and I have alway heard that I should read for my self. My ancestors were persecuted by the Catholic church because they believed they should think critically and read the bible.

analogbear may not want to be labeled but it is a certainty from his writings that he is an Agnostic

Funny, you don't know a thing about me, beyond what I have posted on a motorcycle bulletin board, and you deign to label me with a quasi-religious label? Pshaw! The closest I might get is Secular Humanist. Agnostic leaves too much open possibility. I am an American Pragmatist by training in Philosophy, the mere undertaking of which dashes against the rocks of reason ANY and ALL religions. Marx, for all of his predictive errors, was absolutely right...Religion is the opiate of the masses, and you my man, are hooked...

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by leelover

Please go ahead and flesh out what you find wrong with the true history.

I find hard to accept as legitimate any book that has been so selectively edited, politically altered, modernized, etc all in the name of one "truth."

There is no real christianity beyond the catholic church. I know, I know, but deal with my hyperbole for a second. I don't doubt that others (all thanks to ML, of course) really think they believe in god through jesus, but in point of fact, all institutions undergo some variety of both entropy and corruption, and why should the church be any different? It can't, and yet there is a christian flavor of the month for just about any spiritual fetish...That's right. Religion is an affectation, like being a goth or a punk-rocker; and the trappings of religion, be they ritual or texts and any indulgence in them is really a perverted form of fetishism...Without the sex, so what a waste.

I don't think anything is particularly wrong with the history of the bible, as it is just history...But, for most people of faith, it is an oral history, or a polemic one learned in a school with a bias for religions or a religious program, so it is oncomplete. People of faith retreat into "well, it was god's plan not to include those scriptures, or leave out those things, or murder the first priestesses of Jesus, etc."
That is the history of the bible, a political polemic work designed to control the behavior of increasing measures of people and activities.

Bullsiht. Nobody knows god's plan, and if they say they do they are full of it or crazy.

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by analogbear

Funny, you don't know a thing about me, beyond what I have posted on a motorcycle bulletin board, and you deign to label me with a quasi-religious label? Pshaw! The closest I might get is Secular Humanist. Agnostic leaves too much open possibility. I am an American Pragmatist by training in Philosophy, the mere undertaking of which dashes against the rocks of reason ANY and ALL religions. Marx, for all of his predictive errors, was absolutely right...Religion is the opiate of the masses, and you my man, are hooked...

Consistent, but a horrible mis-spelling...Sorry. I guess I was drinking, and reverted back to my childhood...

[ratchetman]

Originally Posted by analogbear

Funny, you don't know a thing about me, beyond what I have posted on a motorcycle bulletin board, and you deign to label me with a quasi-religious label? Pshaw! The closest I might get is Secular Humanist. Agnostic leaves too much open possibility. I am an American Pragmatist by training in Philosophy, the mere undertaking of which dashes against the rocks of reason ANY and ALL religions. Marx, for all of his predictive errors, was absolutely right...Religion is the opiate of the masses, and you my man, are hooked...

OK secular humanist then. You are a poster child for what is wrong with most places of higher learning. You have been brain washed by what has been taught to you by your professors, and in spite of your high intelligence lack the critical thinking skills to see that you have blindly accepted their ideas without question. Oh you think that you have thought it all through, but you fail to see the whole picture. I have a fair understanding of how you think, but I don't think you understand me very well at all. See I agree with the statement that "Religion is the opiate of the masses". The reason is that religion is dead and meaningless ritual without a relationship with Christ. God sent his son so that we could be restored in relationship with him. So what use would God have for religious ritual, if what he really wants is to walk and talk with us and be our friend.

Originally Posted by analogbear

I find hard to accept as legitimate any book that has been so selectively edited, politically altered, modernized, etc all in the name of one "truth."

There is no real christianity beyond the catholic church. I know, I know, but deal with my hyperbole for a second. I don't doubt that others (all thanks to ML, of course) really think they believe in god through jesus, but in point of fact, all institutions undergo some variety of both entropy and corruption, and why should the church be any different? It can't, and yet there is a christian flavor of the month for just about any spiritual fetish...That's right. Religion is an affectation, like being a goth or a punk-rocker; and the trappings of religion, be they ritual or texts and any indulgence in them is really a perverted form of fetishism...Without the sex, so what a waste.

I don't think anything is particularly wrong with the history of the bible, as it is just history...But, for most people of faith, it is an oral history, or a polemic one learned in a school with a bias for religions or a religious program, so it is oncomplete. People of faith retreat into "well, it was god's plan not to include those scriptures, or leave out those things, or murder the first priestesses of Jesus, etc."
That is the history of the bible, a political polemic work designed to control the behavior of increasing measures of people and activities.

Bullsiht. Nobody knows god's plan, and if they say they do they are full of it or crazy.

The catholic church is a perversion of Christianity. They violate the ten commandments like there's no tomorrow. They also violate the teachings of Christ. It has always been the common folks who read the bible for themselves who were persecuted. The early Christians were put in the Colosseum and so on. After the Church became a political power they did it. If I read the Martyr's Mirror I can see where they were burning people at the stake for believing like I do today. (The priest would hold the crucifix out to the condemned and tell them "kneel down and kiss your God") It has always been and will always be the bible believing, born again type that are the most hated wherever they go. There are many places today where folks who believe like I do are put in jail and even executed.
Believing in Christ as your personal savior and having a personal relationship with God is nothing like an affectation. I'm a whole different being because of Christ who lives in me. (yes you're going to call me a lunatic) Sure there are lots of different denominations but I have never been a believer in denomination.
When I read what has been included in cannon it all goes together. I have briefly looked at some of the other writings but they just seem out of place to me. What in the world is the first priestess of Jesus? There is not to be any priests now because Jesus is the only mediator between God and man. (another thing the catholics can't grasp) Oh and there isn't supposed to be killing either not even heretics.
The bible is not meant to bring increasing control over man. That is the work of the Antichrist. You must not know the book very well. The bible is like the owners manual to life on earth, a lot like the owners manual to your car. Not mean to manipulate and control you to spoil your fun, but to help you get the most out of life. Can you drive your car and never change the oil? Why yes you can but it won't last as long as if you do. Can you live as you please doing everything the bible says you shouldn't? Why yes you can, but you won't last as long as you can either. Not only in this life but afterward also. You Philosophers sound like an unhappy bunch.

[ratchetman]

I can't spell sober. If I misspell a word on my pc it is underlined in red. I just right click on it and select the correct spelling form the suggestions in the list.

[analogbear]

Originally Posted by ratchetman

OK secular humanist then. You are a poster child for what is wrong with most places of higher learning. I have briefly looked at some of the other writings but they just seem out of place to me. What in the world is the first priestess of Jesus? There is not to be any priests now because Jesus is the only mediator between God and man. (another thing the catholics can't grasp) Oh and there isn't supposed to be killing either not even heretics.
The bible is not meant to bring increasing control over man. Can you drive your car and never change the oil? You Philosophers sound like an unhappy bunch.

I am not a secular humanist either, though I said that might be closest, but thanks for playing.

No, my personal perspective on philosophy of religion was not drawn from institutions of higher learning, but from hippie parents who refused to "blindly" accept any particular path, but instead chose to read everything religious they could get an english or french or german translation for (my folks spoke english, french and german).

Thank you for acknowledging my high level of intelligence, though I happen to be a smart mo-fo too...I identify intelligence with the aquisition of information, and being smart with the ability to both manipulate that info and see relationships between seemingly unrelated info...Having been to the schools I have attended, and learned the things I have learned, I am intelligent without dispute...But, many stupid folks have done the same thing...I am not stupid.

What I gained from many years in institutions of higher learning (beyond some bullshiit for the law degree) was a lexicon for dealing with various rational, logical, and intellectual analyses, and a good fundamental understanding of both Philosophy and Forensic Psychology...

The priestesses of jesus...Well now, when jesus died, there was a strong group of women who were former pagans, who had been indoctrinated into his teaching before he was considered some "son of god" thing, and they were the "priestesses." Unfortunately, because Paul didn't really want to share authority with women (he was gay, you know) the womwn were demoted to mere assistants, and eventually became known as "nuns." Great book: the bible as history...

I know there isn't supposed to be killing, yet so much is done in god's name, I find it hard to accept a position counter to killing from one of the flock...You allow it to happen, in god's name, just like the rest of muslims allow fundamentalism to happen, under their noses...Open your/their eyes...

The bible, in a pale precurser to the koran, does have social/population control issues... I have no problem with these in princiole, as these represent one aspect of the similar threads between ALL religions...

We philosophers are unhappy, but not because of what you think...We are unhappy not because we don't know things, but because we know three things:
1-We know that anyone who says he knows anything at all is full of crap;
2-We know just enough to know how insignificant humans really are...
3-Not withstanding 1 and 2, we really know how to think and reason, so that just completely complicates the issue...

What does that lead to? I hope to a pragmatism about improving life here on earth, where it really counts.

[trippd]

In biblical Christianity, Jesus said to focus in life on all our interpersonal relationships as well as relating to the one true, living God who loves us.
For some reason you may be conflicted about Jesus & spiritual matters, but he only wants to give al of us his real peace.

[pladecalvo]

Good posts analogbear!