[Phadreus]

Originally Posted by TattooedGQ

Granted i'm at work now, and I don't have time to formulate the kind of response i would like to, so i'll put it into one statement.

Plad keeps saying that the belief in a God figure isn't acceptable. I still pose the question what created, well everything? <snip>

I'm not sure I've heard Plad say anything that bold. What he is asserting though is that many faithful posses the ability to use critical thinking, reason and logic when dismissing gods like Zeus, animals like unicorns and beings like ferries, but do not use the same metal faculties on the one they personally refer to as "God". All the mental tools get put down in favor of blind faith. I don't think he's saying one should have no faith based beliefs, but the realization that these things are just that, beliefs is important. Many faith based people speak with such certainty when it comes to God, and speak with disdain for anyone that would pose questions of their faith that it often times interferes with true intellectually honest debates. Plad, not unlike myself, obviously loves the art of rhetoric and debate, and rightfully so. You can look through this thread alone and see the faith based are emotionally attached to their ideas (or beliefs) while the non-faith based are simply engaged in an intellectual belief. The ironic thing about this is the faith based are supposed to be representing a loving, understanding and forgiving God and are supposed to represent Him with the same attributes. Why do they often times lash out with such hatred in a conversation such as this one? Answer; they are emotionally attached to the topic and deep down are unsure.

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by TattooedGQ

Plad keeps saying that the belief in a God figure isn't acceptable.

Well that's not quite what I'm saying Tattooed. I'm saying that god belief is illogical not that it's unacceptable. Of course people can believe in whatever gods they want. What I'm trying to get to the bottom of is why theists don't employ the same critical thinking to god belief that they employ to dismiss mermaids.

I still pose the question what created, well everything?

But you are assuming that we were 'created' and there is no evidence for that...well, other than the Bible. You are saying that because we don't know how we got here, the only answer must be 'god did it'. There could be many ways in which we got here. Gods are one possibility...they are not a foregone conclusion.

I think we're all agreed that it had to start somewhere.

Why? Again you assume that there was once nothing that suddenly became something. There is every possibility that the universe has always existed.

What seems more logical Tattooed:

1. The Universe exists so it is likely that it has always existed.
or
2. Once there was nothing. Then a supernatural deity who has never been shown to exist, created everything....... out of nothing.

Who's to say if it wasn't a god of sorts?

Nobody! You could well be right..... but what makes you so sure it's the Christian god and not a god from any of the other religions that exist or have existed.

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by denzee

How do you compare unicorns, fairies etc when they don't have a bible or any scriptures that accompany them?

There are posters here arguing that the Bible shouldn't be taken literally....in other words it is nothing more than a collection of ancient stories...some of which may be true and some of which are allegorical (I'm still waiting to hear how they decide which is which).

Christianity, until recent times, had always claimed the Bible as the inerrant word of God. Particularly the gospels. Yet lately we see it backing away from that and saying that it contains allegory and metaphor. We are seeing more and more cherry-picking where believers are saying 'Oh, that part is true because it supports what I believe but that part isn't because it brings up questions that I can't answer'.



It is indisputable that the Bible contains mistakes, contradiction and in some cases downright lies. Why? Because it was written by humans and humans are prone to making errors. But human writers who are allegedly writing under the inspiration of gods should not make mistakes. The Christian God is supposed to be perfect. Shouldn't we expect that a perfect God would have produced a perfect Bible and insured that it remained perfect? Any contradictions or mistakes just demonstrate that the Bible is the work of fallible men who make mistakes and tell tall tales.

I would say that would be a pretty significant difference.

What makes you think that the Bible is true? I know that you take it on faith that the Bible is true and accurate - but I don't accept that any more than you accept that the Bhagavad Gita or the Rig Veda or the Elder Edda or the Epic of Gilgamesh or the Enuma Elish or Hesiod's Theogony or any other religious work is true and accurate, all of which are (or have been in the past) considered so on faith by large numbers of people.

So please present your evidence that your Bible is correct and the other religious works that I have mentioned are false.

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by Phadreus

I'm not sure I've heard Plad say anything that bold. What he is asserting though is that many faithful posses the ability to use critical thinking, reason and logic when dismissing gods like Zeus, animals like unicorns and beings like ferries, but do not use the same metal faculties on the one they personally refer to as "God". All the mental tools get put down in favor of blind faith. I don't think he's saying one should have no faith based beliefs, but the realization that these things are just that, beliefs is important. Many faith based people speak with such certainty when it comes to God, and speak with disdain for anyone that would pose questions of their faith that it often times interferes with true intellectually honest debates. Plad, not unlike myself, obviously loves the art of rhetoric and debate, and rightfully so. You can look through this thread alone and see the faith based are emotionally attached to their ideas (or beliefs) while the non-faith based are simply engaged in an intellectual belief. The ironic thing about this is the faith based are supposed to be representing a loving, understanding and forgiving God and are supposed to represent Him with the same attributes. Why do they often times lash out with such hatred in a conversation such as this one? Answer; they are emotionally attached to the topic and deep down are unsure.

[blue1000rr]

plad, you keep saying that believing in God is Illogical. So i want to know, if you dont believe in anything, whats the point in living. to me the point of life is to prove yourself for whatever happens next. Good or bad. i would like to hear the Atheist view on it because i know nothing about it.

[vertical954rr]

Originally Posted by TattooedGQ

Damn Tootin!!

Well then, since you know the Tubal Cain you may proceed forward to the inner sanctum of Masonic History:

Illustrations of Masonry

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by blue1000rr

plad, you keep saying that believing in God is Illogical. So i want to know, if you dont believe in anything, whats the point in living. to me the point of life is to prove yourself for whatever happens next. Good or bad. i would like to hear the Atheist view on it because i know nothing about it.

You say that the point of life is to prepare yourself for what comes next but you have no idea of what comes next or indeed, if there is any 'next' so how do you prepare for "what comes next" when you don't know what it is. Sure, you believe you know what comes next but believing something will happen doesn't make it true.

I value life now because I believe that this life is all there is and therefore make the most of now. I'm not just spending my time here waiting to die so that I can go to a better life that there is no objective evidence for. I suspect that the majority of atheists think the same way. We value life because we think this is pretty much it and want to make the most of it, be nice and caring and make life as enjoyable for everyone around us while we have the chance. We don't wait to die so we can be with a god, we don't value death or afterlife or heaven...we value LIFE NOW!

Religion on the other hand appears to devalue life. The only thing that has any great importance to theists is Jesus or Allah or Muhammad and heaven is the ultimate goal. People are actually killing for god and heaven, destroying all that is beautiful in the name of fairy tales and lies.

An 'enlightening' experience for you would be to go to the "Rapture Ready." forum and read the comments from people who place no real value on life. They can't wait to die and go to heaven. They openly say that they are "disappointed" when they wake to find that they haven't died in their sleep and have to spend yet another day here without seeing their Jesus. It's friggin' frightening man because people like that are basically robots who will commit any atrocity as long as they think that their god approves.

[vertical954rr]

Perhaps they are just following the wrong version of Christianity??? The Essenes and the Quamran community were known to be a peaceful group who wanted to be left alone, needless to say they were destroyed by the Romans along with other "passive" communities interested in learning such as the Platonic Acadamy and the great Alexandria Library..The Pythagrean Acadamy was another great learning institution destroyed by uncivilized tyrants...maybe our current version of Christianity is just too Romanized??

[pladecalvo]

Damn! It's gone quiet........has everyone but me been 'raptured'???

[denzee]

What's left to talk about plade. You seem to have it all figured out, right? It does get difficult to debate something not tangible and that science can't document or measure. Comes down to what you believe in your heart.

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by denzee

What's left to talk about plade. You seem to have it all figured out, right?

Right!...but for the sake of a good old chin-wag..... convince me I'm wrong!!

Comes down to what you believe in your heart.

Excellent! At least you said it's what you believe rather than what you know.

[MadRussian]

Interesting thread, lots of information here and debate, here are some more resources for those who like to learn. These are free podcasts, not necessarily religious but very good in my opinion and do touch on the matter discussed here

The Skeptics' Guide To The Universe
WNYC's Radio Lab
Skeptoid: Critical Analysis Podcast
The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com

I think someone earlier posted a collection on bible resources, here is another interesting one

SAB, Injustice: The Short List

[MadRussian]

Originally Posted by blue1000rr

plad, you keep saying that believing in God is Illogical. So i want to know, if you dont believe in anything, whats the point in living. to me the point of life is to prove yourself for whatever happens next. Good or bad. i would like to hear the Atheist view on it because i know nothing about it.

Why are so many stuck on the "Whats the meaning of life"? Its to live and contribute to the rest of society, we are after all social in nature.

I don't know what I am but to me the point of living is to be there for my family, to love my loved ones, to care and help those I know or even strangers because that makes me feel good, and also to go riding
I love life and all the experiences that everyday brings, sure there are times when work gets me down or something emotionally distressful happens, but thats when my family and friends support me. I like waking up and thinking what a great time it is to live because we are surrounded by amazing things all the time, be it nature, technology or people. There are so many interesting things and we live in a time when its possible to up and go halfway around the world to Japan or India to see a completely different way of life, beliefs, superstitions and outlooks, something that just 70 years ago was reserved for the really rich. Its just that we are too mired in everyday chores to notice the wonders around us.

I suppose I have always been like this, I live to learn because I have always been curious, and you are right, we all need something to live for but for me just living is that something.

Now after reading what I just typed I may sound like some California hippie but I am actually a field technician in Ohio, and have never cared to try any drugs because I see it as a waste of time.

What I dont understand is why do we need gods to justify an existence? Since I brought up Japan, it might be worthwhile to compare the eastern culture to the west, not that one is better, just that when it comes down to it they have so many ridiculous beliefs that a foreigner would laugh at all of them, ( ie. they throw beans out the window to thwart evil spirits), but at the same time will go and pray for virgin mary to look out for him. To me that just shows that people everywhere are afraid of the unknown, and different cultures came up with different ways of dealing with those scary thoughts.

I heard a little while back a Japanese person being asked if they pray or just wish for things when they go to temples, he replied confused "What is the difference?"

[pladecalvo]

Very well said MadRussian.

[vertical954rr]

i just ordered this book, should be a good read:

Amazon.com: The New Testament Code: The Cup of the Lord, the Damascus Covenant, and the Blood of Christ: Robert Eisenman: Books

This looks like it might be next in line:

Amazon.com: The Keys to the Bible: Software

[lanbrown]

To those who think the bible is 100% accurate, ever had the forbidden fruit?

We all know who created the universe:
"In the begining...there was nothing...Chuck Norris roundhouse kicked nothing in the face and told it to get a job.
And thus, the universe was created."

[MadRussian]

Now here is one of the best books written on modern world, religions and responsibility. And the best book I have read!

Amazon.com: The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark: Carl Sagan, Ann Druyan: Books

It is a must read even if you don't like books but like to ponder "the meaning of life" as they say. Carl Sagan died 12 years ago but luckily his legacy lives on. To me, this guy was like Albert Einstein but with a knack for entertainment.
Some of you may have seen COSMOS series on TV, an 80's show about human history, life on earth and vast space. Or the movie Contact? This guy wrote both of those and this book. He does not talk down, rather explains and show evidence to support his position, letting the reader arrive to the conclusion.

Check it out, you will not be disappointed!! The book is called Demon Haunted World.

[lanbrown]

You can also see how good created the universe in a Family Guy episode.

[blue1000rr]

Originally Posted by lanbrown

To those who think the bible is 100% accurate, ever had the forbidden fruit?

We all know who created the universe:
"In the begining...there was nothing...Chuck Norris roundhouse kicked nothing in the face and told it to get a job.
And thus, the universe was created."

is that kinda like... Chuck Norris doesnt do push ups, he pushes the world down. ?

[steingar]

Chuck Norris is an old fart who doesn't even do his own karate anymore. Sure, he could still kick the sh*t out of me, but there are girls who can do that.

[MadRussian]

Originally Posted by steingar

Chuck Norris is an old fart who doesn't even do his own karate anymore. Sure, he could still kick the sh*t out of me, but there are girls who can do that.

Yeah but did you know that :

Guns don't kill people. Chuck Norris kills People.

There is no theory of evolution. Just a list of animals Chuck Norris allows to live.

Chuck Norris does not sleep. He waits.

The chief export of Chuck Norris is Pain.

There is no chin under Chuck Norris' Beard. There is only another fist.

Chuck Norris has two speeds. Walk, and Kill.

The leading causes of death in the United States are: 1. Heart Disease 2. Chuck Norris 3. Cancer.

Chuck Norris drives an ice cream truck covered in human skulls.

Chuck Norris doesn't go hunting.... CHUCK NORRIS GOES KILLING.

Chuck Norris uses pepper spray to spice up his steaks.

Chuck Norris once roundhouse kicked someone so hard that his foot broke the speed of light, went back in time, and killed Amelia Earhart while she was flying over the Pacific Ocean.

Crop circles are Chuck Norris' way of telling the world that sometimes corn needs to lie down.

Chuck Norris is ten feet tall, weighs two-tons, breathes fire, and could eat a hammer and take a shotgun blast standing.

The Great Wall of China was originally created to keep Chuck Norris out. It failed miserably.

Contrary to popular belief, Chuck Norris, not the box jellyfish of northern Australia, is the most venomous creature on earth. Within 3 minutes of being bitten, a human being experiences the following symptoms: fever, blurred vision, beard rash, tightness of the jeans, and the feeling of being repeatedly kicked through a car windshield.

Most people have 23 pairs of chromosomes. Chuck Norris has 72... and they're all poisonous.

If you ask Chuck Norris what time it is, he always says, "Two seconds 'til." After you ask, "Two seconds 'til what?" he roundhouse kicks you in the face.

When Chuck Norris sends in his taxes, he sends blank forms and includes only a picture of himself, crouched and ready to attack. Chuck Norris has not had to pay taxes, ever.

The quickest way to a man's heart is with Chuck Norris' fist.

Chuck Norris invented Kentucky Fried Chicken's famous secret recipe, with eleven herbs and spices. But nobody ever mentions the twelfth ingredient: Fear.

CNN was originally created as the "Chuck Norris Network" to update Americans with on-the-spot ass kicking in real-time.

Chuck Norris can win a game of Connect Four in only three moves.

Chuck Norris once ate three 72 oz. steaks in one hour. He spent the first 45 minutes having sex with his waitress.

What was going through the minds of all of Chuck Norris' victims before they died? His shoe.

Chuck Norris is the only man to ever defeat a brick wall in a game of tennis.

Police label anyone attacking Chuck Norris as a Code 45-11.... a suicide.

Chuck Norris doesn't churn butter. He roundhouse kicks the cows and the butter comes straight out.

Chuck Norris doesn't wash his clothes, he disembowels them.

A Handicapped parking sign does not signify that this spot is for handicapped people. It is actually in fact a warning, that the spot belongs to Chuck Norris and that you will be handicapped if you park there.

Chuck Norris will attain statehood in 2009. His state flower will be the Magnolia.

Someone once videotaped Chuck Norris getting pissed off. It was called Walker: Texas Chain Saw Massacre.

If you spell Chuck Norris in Scrabble, you win. Forever.

Chuck Norris originally appeared in the "Street Fighter II" video game, but was removed by Beta Testers because every button caused him to do a roundhouse kick. When asked bout this "glitch," Norris replied, "That's no glitch."

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool Chuck Norris once and he will roundhouse you in the face.

The opening scene of the movie "Saving Private Ryan" is loosely based on games of dodgeball Chuck Norris played in second grade.

Chuck Norris once shot down a German fighter plane with his finger, by yelling, "Bang!"

Chuck Norris once bet NASA he could survive re-entry without a spacesuit. On July 19th, 1999, a naked Chuck Norris re-entered the earth's atmosphere, streaking over 14 states and reaching a temperature of 3000 degrees. An embarrassed NASA publically claimed it was a meteor, and still owes him a beer.

Someone once tried to tell Chuck Norris that roundhouse kicks aren't the best way to kick someone. This has been recorded by historians as the worst mistake anyone has ever made.

Contrary to popular belief, America is not a democracy, it is a Chucktatorship.

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles is based on a true story: Chuck Norris once swallowed a turtle whole, and when he crapped it out, the turtle was six feet tall and had learned karate.

Chuck Norris is not hung like a horse... horses are hung like Chuck Norris.

Faster than a speeding bullet ... more powerful than a locomotive ... able to leap tall buildings in a single bound... yes, these are some of Chuck Norris's warm-up exercises.

Chuck Norris is the only human being to display the Heisenberg uncertainty principle -- you can never know both exactly where and how quickly he will roundhouse-kick you in the face.

In the Bible, Jesus turned water into wine. But then Chuck Norris turned that wine into beer.

Chuck Norris can hit you so hard that he can actually alter your DNA. Decades from now your descendants will occasionally clutch their heads and yell "What The Hell was That?"

Time waits for no man. Unless that man is Chuck Norris.

Chuck Norris discovered a new theory of relativity involving multiple universes in which Chuck Norris is even more badass than in this one. When it was discovered by Albert Einstein and made public, Chuck Norris roundhouse-kicked him in the face. We know Albert Einstein today as Stephen Hawking.

Chuck Norris doesn't shower, he only takes blood baths.

The Chuck Norris military unit was not used in the game Civilization 4, because a single Chuck Norris could defeat the entire combined nations of the world in one turn.

In an average living room there are 1,242 objects Chuck Norris could use to kill you, including the room itself.

According to the Encyclopedia Brittanica, the Native American "Trail of Tears" has been redefined as anywhere that Chuck Norris walks.

Chuck Norris does not teabag the ladies. He potato-sacks them.

Pluto is actually an orbiting group of British soldiers from the American Revolution who entered space after the Chuck gave them a roundhouse kick to the face.

When Chuck Norris goes to donate blood, he declines the syringe, and instead requests a hand gun and a bucket.

There are no steroids in baseball. Just players Chuck Norris has breathed on.

Chuck Norris once challenged Lance Armstrong in a "Who has more testicles?" contest. Chuck Norris won by 5.

Chuck Norris was the fourth wise man, who gave baby Jesus the gift of beard, which he carried with him until he died. The other three wise men were enraged by the preference that Jesus showed to Chuck's gift, and arranged to have him written out of the bible. All three died soon after of mysterious roundhouse-kick related injuries.

Chuck Norris sheds his skin twice a year.

[pladecalvo]

Who the hell is Chuck Norris??

[lanbrown]

Chuck Norris - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In 1972, he acted as Bruce Lee's nemesis in the movie Way of the Dragon (titled Return of the Dragon in its US distribution), which is widely credited with launching his way into stardom. In Asia, he is still known primarily for this role. In 1974, McQueen encouraged him to begin acting classes at MGM. Chuck Norris retired with a karate record of 65–6-2, having avenged all of his defeats.

Norris created the martial art Chun Kuk Do, which is based primarily on Tang Soo Do and includes elements from every combat style he knows. Like many other martial arts, Chun Kuk Do includes a code of honor and rules to live by. These rules are from Chuck Norris's personal code. They are:
I will develop myself to the maximum of my potential in all ways.
I will forget the mistakes of the past and press on to greater achievements.
I will continually work at developing love, happiness and loyalty in my family.
I will look for the good in all people and make them feel worthwhile.
If I have nothing good to say about a person, I will say nothing.
I will always be as enthusiastic about the success of others as I am about my own.
I will maintain an attitude of open-mindedness.
I will maintain respect for those in authority and demonstrate this respect at all times.
I will always remain loyal to God, my country, family and my friends.
I will remain highly goal-oriented throughout my life because that positive attitude helps my family, my country and myself.

[steingar]

Originally Posted by pladecalvo

Who the hell is Chuck Norris??

Where are you from? Mars? Oh, Valencia. That explains a few things.