[denzee]

The Darwin people who believe the theory of evolution, claim the earth is about 4.5 billion years old, yet creationists say God created the earth about 6,000 years ago. Far cry apart. That's like telling someone that the distance from San Fransico to New York is really only 128 feet. That puts the difference into perspective.
I tend to believe the earth is more like scientists claim 4.5 billion years old but I also believe in God or at least intelligent design. Which is true and can you somehow believe both theories?

I'd like to hear all your inputs on this.

[MACI4LIFE]

which one is it then? you can't have it both ways? if you believe in the literal interpretation of the bible then you have to go by their date. You can't take bits and pieces of the bible as you see fit. it's one way or the other.

2000 year old book, made up of stories from numerous people, or thousands of scientists, that have been able to split the atom, map our chromosomes, and take us to space?? i wonder which side i'll take.

[TattooedGQ]

Originally Posted by MACI4LIFE

2000 year old book, made up of stories from numerous people

This is exactly why it can't be taken literally. It was written at various times, by various people, THEN on top of that it was translated, and retranslated countless times. It's like a 2000 year old game of telephone...you start off with "lets going to the track" which turns into "lets go to the track purple monkey snorkel bowtie"

While I have a strong belief structure, I view the Bible as a collection of stories and historical accounts, open to interpretation, that serves as a rule and guide for a good life. But certainly nothing to take 100% literally.

[denzee]

Originally Posted by TattooedGQ

This is exactly why it can't be taken literally. It was written at various times, by various people, THEN on top of that it was translated, and retranslated countless times. It's like a 2000 year old game of telephone...you start off with "lets going to the track" which turns into "lets go to the track purple monkey snorkel bowtie"

While I have a strong belief structure, I view the Bible as a collection of stories and historical accounts, open to interpretation, that serves as a rule and guide for a good life. But certainly nothing to take 100% literally.

Leave it to a Brother to come up with that good explanation.

[TattooedGQ]

[steingar]

There are extant civilizations older than the biblical estimate.

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by MACI4LIFE

You can't take bits and pieces of the bible as you see fit.

Ah! but Christians are working on doing just that.

They've decided they don't like a God who created evil and since the only "evidence" they seem to have for their God are the claims in the Bible, by changing the wording ("catastrophe" and "disaster" seem to be the two most popular replacements for "evil"), they get to completely re-sculpture their God. Just change a word and as quickly as that, you've changed God's acts. And who is there to tell you it's not accurate? God certainly doesn't care. He obviously never has. If you believe these Christians, God hasn't had a problem with having "His word" claim he created evil for 20 centuries. Suddenly, as the cultures Christians dwell within are gradually moving their standards toward a more civilized attitude, they begin having a huge problem with this. So much so that they've decided they have to fix God's work. Some of the newer versions of the Bible have already removed the word "evil" and replaced it with words that not only relieve God of the act he has been said for 2,000 years to claim for himself, but now put the occurrence of disasters on his back, while prior to that, they were always said to have been caused by the fall. So; the score as it stands (until Christians change it again), is that God didn't create evil, and man didn't cause disasters through the fall. God caused disasters and, as far as I know, Christians haven't found a scapegoat for evil yet. But you can be certain they'll follow their usual pattern and drop it back on man.

Change a word and you change God's actions. How convenient is that? Don't like what God is claimed to have done, just change the claim!

2000 year old book, made up of stories from numerous people, or thousands of scientists, that have been able to split the atom, map our chromosomes, and take us to space?? i wonder which side i'll take.

I agree. I'd sooner believe science than believe the words of desert goatherds who though the world was flat and the sun revolved around the Earth.

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by denzee

The Darwin people who believe the theory of evolution, claim the earth is about 4.5 billion years old, yet creationists say God created the earth about 6,000 years ago. Far cry apart. That's like telling someone that the distance from San Fransico to New York is really only 128 feet. That puts the difference into perspective.
I tend to believe the earth is more like scientists claim 4.5 billion years old but I also believe in God or at least intelligent design. Which is true and can you somehow believe both theories?

I'd like to hear all your inputs on this.

No you can't believe in both theories. Either it's 4.5 billion years old or it's 6000 years old.....and if, as you say, you believe in God then you must believe that the Bible is his infallible word.....and if you believe that then you have to go with 6000 years.

[TattooedGQ]

Originally Posted by pladecalvo

if, as you say, you believe in God then you must believe that the Bible is his infallible word.....and if you believe that then you have to go with 6000 years.

Again you can't be so black and white. Just because someone believes in God doesn't mean that the Bible is his infallible word. Remember, God gave man free will. As you yourself said people change a word here and there and it's interpretation gets skewed. So while the message may still be the same as what first inspired it, LITERALLY it is fallible.

[denzee]

I ditto what Tattooed said and when I say I believe in both as they stand isn't what I mean. I believe that the beginning of time is not clear from either theory. The bible timeline is somehow not what it appears to be and may very well be much longer than 6,000 years. Likewise 4.5 billion is a little hard to swallow. Scientists measurement of time has to get somewhat obscured when dealing with that many years. None of these things can be proven and there in lies the problem.
Too many beautiful and incredible things on earth not to have had a creator behind it. Sorry but it's too hard to swallow the idea we started from a fish in a mud puddle that dried up billions of years ago.

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by TattooedGQ

Again you can't be so black and white. Just because someone believes in God doesn't mean that the Bible is his infallible word.

Well if you don't think it is, how do you decide what is true and what isn't? How do decide what is literal and what isn't? Is the flood literal or metaphorical; if it's metaphorical why shouldn't the alleged crucifixion and resurrection also be metaphorical? Who decides?

Do you believe in the Garden of Eden?

Remember, God gave man free will.

Free will can't exist alongside an omniscient deity.

As you yourself said people change a word here and there and it's interpretation gets skewed. So while the message may still be the same as what first inspired it, LITERALLY it is fallible.

Quite! Which is why I tend to laugh when Christians tell me that they have "the truth".....and as for the message being "the same"...it obviously isn't, otherwise we wouldn't have thousands (38,000 by some estimates) of different denominations of the same religion each claiming to be the ones with "the truth."

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by denzee

Too many beautiful and incredible things on earth not to have had a creator behind it.

'The puddle sees how it fits perfectly into the hole and therefore assumes that the hole was made especially for it.'

The thing to keep in mind is that Evolution is supported by years of accumulated evidence, while Intelligent Design really only has as its evidence the mere fact that Evolution does not explain every detail of life. There is nothing positive about ID. It is only a negative response to evolution. In other words, Intelligent Design says "Evolution does not tell me every detail of the origins of life; therefore, some supernatural power is the cause of everything that I do not presently understand."

Sorry but it's too hard to swallow the idea we started from a fish in a mud puddle that dried up billions of years ago.

Is that really any harder to swallow than the belief that an invisible, unevidencible, omnimax deity (that there is no objective evidence for) scooped up a handful of dust, blew on it and here we are?

[Phadreus]

Originally Posted by pladecalvo

<snip> you believe in God then you must believe that the Bible is his infallible word.....and if you believe that then you have to go with 6000 years.

The two beliefs (believing in God and believing the Bible) are not intrinsically linked. Only for the Christians and the Jewish. I know many people with very strong opinions / beliefs about the one we call God that do not subscribe to the tenants of the Bible.

[Phadreus]

Originally Posted by pladecalvo

'The puddle sees how it fits perfectly into the hole and therefore assumes that the hole was made especially for it.'

The thing to keep in mind is that Evolution is supported by years of accumulated evidence, while Intelligent Design really only has as its evidence the mere fact that Evolution does not explain every detail of life. There is nothing positive about ID. It is only a negative response to evolution. In other words, Intelligent Design says "Evolution does not tell me every detail of the origins of life; therefore, some supernatural power is the cause of everything that I do not presently understand."

Is that really any harder to swallow than the belief that an invisible, unevidencible, omnimax deity (that there is no objective evidence for) scooped up a handful of dust, blew on it and here we are?

Well said pladecalvo, very well said...

[Grover130]

What kind of bike does GOD ride?

[Carolina_954]

This is an interesting subject. I wonder how many of us have had a near miss on the road, and while retelling the tale of our good fortune, stated that GOD must have been watching out for me? I totally agree that you can believe in God and not believe the bible. I am not a devout christian, but I have seen the inside of a church on more than one occasion. I do believe that God had a hand in not only my existence, but the existence of all things on earth. To say that you believe in God and do not believe he was somehow involved in my existence, would compare to saying I believe in caffiene, but not it's ability to increase my heart rate. I am not saying that I believe one day God was bored with watching angels play harps and decided to do a science experiment. Next thing you know boom here we all are.

It has always kinda been my theory that we are all God's creatures. We began as his creatures, and sometime along the way, he noticed that things were not to his liking. So, he decided to make some changes. Then, as if by trial and error, he finally felt he had it right. I think Darwin's theory is just a historical scientific log of God's R&D department. I also believe we are still evolving into something else that he has in mind as the "perfect" being. Think of our motorcycles for example, and Honda R&D as god. What did motorcycles look like in the 60's? What do they look like now? What will they look like in the future? The basic parts are the same, the way they fit together and function are constantly getting better.

God is constantly looking at our parts and doing things to make them better. Remember, the average height of man has increased at a steady rate forever. What do you think God wants us to reach?

[TattooedGQ]

Originally Posted by Phadreus

The two beliefs (believing in God and believing the Bible) are not intrinsically linked.

That's pretty much what i was getting at.

[vertical954rr]

It's, It's.....It's a COOKBOOK!!!!!!

[vertical954rr]

Hiram Abiff and the Loyal Order of the Water Buffaloes?

[vertical954rr]

Brother to Brother, enjoy the underground stream:

Freemasonry - History and Ritual

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by Carolina_954

This is an interesting subject. I wonder how many of us have had a near miss on the road, and while retelling the tale of our good fortune, stated that GOD must have been watching out for me?

I suspect that only those who believe in gods would thank gods for saving them.

I totally agree that you can believe in God and not believe the bible.

Then I would ask you HOW you got to believe in God if you don't believe in what the Bible says? The only evidence for God is the Bible so if you don't believe the Bible why do you believe in God?

I do believe that God had a hand in not only my existence, but the existence of all things on earth.

What is your evidence for believing this. What I'm trying to get at is why do you think God is involved in your existence and not Brahma or Allah or Zeus? I put it to you that the only reason you believe in the Christian God is because you were born in a Christian country, probably with Christian parents. If you had been born in India of Hindi parents you would be here saying that Brahma had a hand in your existence. Religion has nothing to do with truth and everything to do with geography.

To say that you believe in God and do not believe he was somehow involved in my existence, would compare to saying I believe in caffiene, but not it's ability to increase my heart rate.

Well yes, that would be so if you are a Christian......but what if you were Hindu? Who would be involved in your existence then?

It has always kinda been my theory that we are all God's creatures. We began as his creatures, and sometime along the way, he noticed that things were not to his liking. So, he decided to make some changes. Then, as if by trial and error, he finally felt he had it right.

So you are suggesting that an all powerful, all knowing deity created something that didn't turn out as he planned so had to make changes to the design. If the Christian God is omniscient, as claimed, then he would have known before he created anything how it was going to turn out. That's where Christianity falls every time. God creates Adam and Eve, who screwed up (which God would have known about due to his omniscience). Then he had to drown everyone on the planet, save Noah and his gang, in order to wipe out sin (that's the 'sin' that he would have known would come due to being omniscient) but that didn't work because we still have 'sin' and he would have known that drowning everyone wouldn't eradicate the problem because he is omniscient...so why did he create something that he knew he would have to eradicate....and why would he eradicate something when he knew that eradication wouldn't solve a problem that he himself created? Why can't an omnimax deity get it right the first time?

I'll ask you what I asked someone else here. Would you spend 6 days fitting an engine to your bike when you knew full well that as soon as you turned the ignition key, it would blow sky high and you would have to start again? That basically, is the Christian story. God fitted an engine to his bike when he knew that the engine would be useless and he would have to scrap it!! What's the point in that?

I also believe we are still evolving into something else that he has in mind as the "perfect" being. Think of our motorcycles for example, and Honda R&D as god. What did motorcycles look like in the 60's? What do they look like now? What will they look like in the future? The basic parts are the same, the way they fit together and function are constantly getting better.

So imagine if the manufactures of bikes in the 60's had the ability to create the bikes that we see today. Do you think that they would have created them or would they have carried on producing the bikes of the 60's?

God is constantly looking at our parts and doing things to make them better.

Why?? He is allegedly omnipotent and omniscient. There is absolutely no reason to do what you said. His characteristics mean that he could have created the perfect being in the first place.

Remember, the average height of man has increased at a steady rate forever.

Yes, it's called EVOLUTION.

[denzee]

It sounds like you have been through this many times before pladecalvo. I have a friend you sound like. He even wears Darwin fish shirts. No one is likely going to change one anothers mind on a belief system.
That being said, you raise some valid questions that can't easily be answered at least my me.
Personally I have an issue with organized Religion today and I believe it's all comes down to greed and big business. All denominations are worshiping the same real God just in different forms that suite their scriptures and beliefs.
Also we are just Human stuck in a little box compared to the universe and we don't have the capacity to understand everything especially just trying to use science to explain it all. Science is all we have and because God is not tangible, it cannot explain it.
That's the best I can do.
Hey...MotoGP today...Go Nicky (and the midget)

[BALDGONZO]

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by denzee

It sounds like you have been through this many times before pladecalvo.

I have studied religion for over 40 years my friend.....even though I'm atheist I find the subject... and why people believe in gods to be fascinating. Oh!...and I like a good argument of course!!

No one is likely going to change one anothers mind on a belief system.

Changing someone's mind or position is not my concern denzee. Reasoned debate is my objective. I write for those who read these threads with an ability to understand and evaluate what is said – and compare realism with supernaturalism.

I was on a forum many years ago and they did a survey of people who had converted or de-converted by the arguments put forward on the forum. Interestingly, there were far more people who had de-converted. I found that rather interesting.

Personally I have an issue with organized Religion today and I believe it's all comes down to greed and big business.

Can't disagree with you there. That and power!

All denominations are worshiping the same real God just in different forms that suite their scriptures and beliefs.

...but there are some HUGE differences don't you think?

Also we are just Human stuck in a little box compared to the universe and we don't have the capacity to understand everything especially just trying to use science to explain it all. Science is all we have and because God is not tangible, it cannot explain it.

That's generally true but science is able to demonstrate how wrong many religious assertions are, ranging from simple errors of fact to flat-out impossible. For example, discoveries and analysis of polar ice core samples from the Antarctic show that there haven't been any occurrences of any global flood within the past hundred thousand years, much less within the past ten thousand years. There is much to be discovered, but science is significantly far ahead of religious theology in terms of understanding the universe. New questions lead to new paths of inquiry and experimentation, new hypotheses, and perhaps discoveries of new evidence, which might require modification of the previous hypotheses and principles. It's a self-correcting process, which is constantly improving, and modern technology is a very obvious advantage of that process. On the other hand, religious dogma is something you're stuck with permanently: "God said it, I believe it, and that settles it - no matter how often it's refuted."

That's the best I can do.

Thanks for your input anyway.

Hey...MotoGP today...

Yeah! I was up at 6am to watch it. Unfortunately, my neighbour, Hector Faubel isn't doing too well since he went from 125 to 250. I suppose he'll need a bit of time to get used to the bike so we are keeping our fingers crossed here.

[Phadreus]

Fascinating stuff here for sure, thanks for broaching the subject Denzee. I find myself in alignment with Pladecalvo on many of his thoughts, not an Atheist, but very agnostic. To me, the Atheist world view is often times as illogical as the theological (the faithful). Both make very high level claims with certainty, and neither can illustrate their claims as “knowledge”. The faithful claim that there is absolutely a God and they not only know His will, but most claim to be in a personal relationship with Him. Most faithful not only claim that God positively exist, but it’s impossible for him to not exist. The hard Atheist on the other hand stands at the other end of the balance with god absolutely does not exist, it’s not possible. (of course there are hard and soft Atheist, I’m speaking of atheist in some pretty generic terms here) I personally, am very much between these two extremes with “God very well could exist, but I can’t claim his existence as knowledge, and it is just as possible that he may not exist, that I can’t claim as knowledge as well”. To me, the agnostic point of view, is the only truly reasonable world view. It allows for either possibility, and is honest enough to simply say “I don’t know, I’m just not sure”.

In my experience, (spending a number of years within the Christian Church, having numerous friend from the middle east, and having an affinity for philosophy) I can say with some level of certainty that one of the worst traps with a belief, is that once it is adopted, the one who believes more often than not will stop thinking critically and most often will stop thinking at all about the particular belief. I think this is where the mentality of “the Bible says it so I believe it” comes from. Of course the opposite of this phenomenon can also take place for those that consider themselves as Atheist; “if the Bible says it, I don’t believe it”. This is dangerous as well, as I have studied the Bible in great depths and it is full of the “human condition” that really hasn’t changed much since the Bible’s existence has come into being. The Bible provides for many the basis for the four most fundamental needs of all humans, no matter their age, sex, race, maturity or world view. The four fundamentals that I speak of are 1) the need to experience love and relationship…to be loved, to know love, and to give love, 2) the need for morality, to know that they are a “good person” according to some standard, 3) the need for self worth and value…I am a good father, husband, friend, man, motorcycle rider, Engineer…whatever one has as their self image and lastly 4) aesthetics, art which of the four is the most illogical, but also undeniable. The Bible addresses all four of these fundamentals in spades. If the Bible is all fiction, it’s writers surely were keen observers, and if Jesus was not God, he possessed the most uncommon ability to absolutely nail the “human condition”. Much to learn from that piece of literature…

What we are really talking about with all of this is our unbridled curiosity into ourselves. Why are we here? What is our purpose? Are we alone? What happens when we die? These are questions man has been asking I’m sure all of his existence. Many cling to Religion as it addresses these questions and the one asking can have peace with their own existence. It’s arguable whether this point is a problem or not. I have many thoughts on the upside and downside of this point, but it is a little more…controversial in nature, so best not voiced in this forum.

See ya fellas!

[razzer]

who gives a ****!!!

[Carolina_954]

Originally Posted by razzer

who gives a ****!!!

now why would you crash someone elses thread, listed under the religion category, and say something like that? If you have no opinion, stay out of it. this site is not just for bikes.

[pladecalvo]

Thanks Phadreus. Good post man!

Originally Posted by Phadreus

To me, the Atheist world view is often times as illogical as the theological (the faithful). Both make very high level claims with certainty, and neither can illustrate their claims as “knowledge”.

I've rarely heard an atheist (at least that I'm aware of) make the claim that ‘gods don't exist’. All we can say is that given what we understand about people, mythology, science, etc. that it is very unlikely that the myths and legends that have been randomly and arbitrarily dreamed up by people 1000s of years ago have any basis in reality. Theists, atheist and agnostics use logic and reason to come to the conclusion that
leprechauns, fairies, goblins, gremlins, unicorns, mermaids and Zeus aren't real. Why, when it comes to God, do theists throw that same logic and reason that they use to dismiss other supernatural entities out of the window and rely instead on 'faith'?

The faithful claim that there is absolutely a God and they not only know His will, but most claim to be in a personal relationship with Him.

Can't fault you on this mate! For a god that moves in such mysterious ways there sure are a lot of people who claim to know what he does, wants, thinks and knows.

I personally, am very much between these two extremes with “God very well could exist, but I can’t claim his existence as knowledge, and it is just as possible that he may not exist, that I can’t claim as knowledge as well”. To me, the agnostic point of view, is the only truly reasonable world view. It allows for either possibility, and is honest enough to simply say “I don’t know, I’m just not sure”.

So are you agnostic or atheist regarding The Flying Spaghetti Monster, Brahma, Zeus, Mithra, Apollo, pink elephants, unicorns, Dionysus, Shiva, Santa Claus etc? I hear what you say regarding "we just don't know", but if we are to remain 'open minded' about the existence of gods, and if we are to be consistent, we should also remain open minded to the existence of all the other supernatural entities that I've just mentioned.

As Richard Dawkins would say:
"By all means let's be open minded....but not so open minded that our brains fall out."

In my experience, (spending a number of years within the Christian Church, having numerous friend from the middle east, and having an affinity for philosophy) I can say with some level of certainty that one of the worst traps with a belief, is that once it is adopted, the one who believes more often than not will stop thinking critically and most often will stop thinking at all about the particular belief.

Well said man! Theists often claim to be searching for 'truth' but in reality they aren't because they have already have a priory assumptions of what 'the truth' is. They believe that they already have the truth and when someone thinks that, they only search for things that will validate their a priori beliefs.

I think this is where the mentality of “the Bible says it so I believe it” comes from. Of course the opposite of this phenomenon can also take place for those that consider themselves as Atheist; “if the Bible says it, I don’t believe it”.

There may be many that think that way but personally, I don't. I'd be the first to admit that there are many good things in the New Testament....but there are equally good things in the Bhagavad Gita, The Qur'an, The Vedas and in Buddhism.

.

......I have studied the Bible in great depths and it is full of the “human condition” that really hasn’t changed much since the Bible’s existence has come into being.

....but those "human conditions" existed in civilisations that preceded the Bible by thousands of years.

The four fundamentals that I speak of are 1) the need to experience love and relationship…to be loved, to know love, and to give love, 2) the need for morality, to know that they are a “good person” according to some standard, 3) the need for self worth and value…I am a good father, husband, friend, man, motorcycle rider, Engineer…whatever one has as their self image and lastly 4) aesthetics, art which of the four is the most illogical, but also undeniable. The Bible addresses all four of these fundamentals in spades. If the Bible is all fiction, it’s writers surely were keen observers, and if Jesus was not God, he possessed the most uncommon ability to absolutely nail the “human condition”. Much to learn from that piece of literature

Most of the things that you will find in the Bible have been copied from the proceeding civilisations of Sumeria, Egypt, Babylonia and Mesopotamia. The Bible story of Noah is an almost exact copy of the Sumerian "Epic of Gilgamesh". The story of Moses being floated on the Nile to avoid being murdered can be found in Sumerian legends too...only there, the name is Sargon and the river is the Euphrates. Ancient mythology abounds with stories of god-men who are killed and resurrected.

I have many thoughts on the upside and downside of this point, but it is a little more…controversial in nature, so best not voiced in this forum.

Come on dude! Let's hear it.

[vertical954rr]

here ya go, links to the great repository of religious knowledge:

Internet Sacred Text Archive Home


The Gnosis Archive: Resources on Gnosticism and Gnostic Tradition

[lanbrown]

Originally Posted by TattooedGQ

This is exactly why it can't be taken literally. It was written at various times, by various people, THEN on top of that it was translated, and retranslated countless times. It's like a 2000 year old game of telephone...you start off with "lets going to the track" which turns into "lets go to the track purple monkey snorkel bowtie"

While I have a strong belief structure, I view the Bible as a collection of stories and historical accounts, open to interpretation, that serves as a rule and guide for a good life. But certainly nothing to take 100% literally.

I would like to add that it is region based as well. A great flood could be a small part of the world and not the entire planet. It could take months to go a short distance by todays standards. It is not like they had a great communication system back then either.