[pladecalvo]

The history of humankind has been littered with thousands of 'gods'. Each god had it's followers....people who were convinced that their gods existed, people who "knew" their gods were there because their gods 'spoke to them', answered their prayers.... people who had "personal relationships" with these gods.

Kishar, Osiris, Anshar, Hercules, Dionysus, Mithra, Enlil, Anu, Horus, Ishtar, Re, Ea, Kingu, Nintu, Marduk, Mummu, Bast, Bes, Geb, Bel, Isis, Nephthys, Set, Shu, Brigit, Ceridwen, Cernunnos, Epona, Lugh, Medb, Morrigan, Anat, Athirat, Athtart, Baal, El, Mot, Shapsu, Kinich Ahau, Kukulcan, Yam, and Yarikh.......all major deities in various times and places. All these gods were "known" to exist amongst their followers.....

.......but where are they now??

Why are present day theists unable to learn from history and realise that their god too, will pass into the annuls of history and be seen as nothing more than 'another mythical god of a past civilisation'?

[denzee]

Just can't let it rest eh plade? People choose to worship whoever or whatever they deem as their God. While there is only one God, he comes to them in many different forms. It certainly doesn't mean that because there is a hundred different religions there is a hundred different Gods like you are trying to suggest.
I am personally not one for organized religions so I'm not the one to speak specifics about each.
Don't you have a race to go see or something plade? Maybe a WSBK race in Portugal. Might help get your mind off this stuff.

[cbr900091177]

a god gives people a reason to exist a reason to carry on the faith takes away the real pointlessness of existing and lets face it it is pointless.can anyone tell me the reason for us to exist exept for reproducing more humans which is possably also pointless.

[WyoJames]

Originally Posted by denzee

Just can't let it rest eh plade?

: plus1:

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by denzee

Just can't let it rest eh plade?

You are under no obligation to contribute to the thread if you don't want to.

People choose to worship whoever or whatever they deem as their God.

That isn't what I asked.

While there is only one God......,

....and which "god" would that be?

It certainly doesn't mean that because there is a hundred different religions there is a hundred different Gods like you are trying to suggest.

Really? You think that Mithra and the Hebrew god are the same god?

Don't you have a race to go see or something plade? Maybe a WSBK race in Portugal. Might help get your mind off this stuff.

It's a religious forum mate.....a place where people discuss religion. Sorry if that's a bit confusing for ya!

If there is nobody that wants to discuss the thread subject, the thread will die....what's the problem?

[denzee]

I thought we were friends. I detect some hostility. I'll pray for you plade.

You're right. The forum is certainly yours to do as you please. Carry on man!

The correct God is my God.

[pladecalvo]

No hostility here denzee!! Just wondered why people have a problem with people wanting to discuss religion.... on a forum that is specifically put here for that purpose!!

[dicknose]

The whole problem with your line of thought is that it just leads to "wow - a billion Christians, maybe that means their god is the correct one"
Yes Ive seen people argue that number of followers and longevity of a religion are a good indication that it must be the right religion!

[lanbrown]

Originally Posted by denzee

I thought we were friends. I detect some hostility. I'll pray for you plade.

You're right. The forum is certainly yours to do as you please. Carry on man!

The correct God is my God.

What if you're wrong?

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by lanbrown

What if you're wrong?

Stand by for Pascal's Wager.

[dr256]

To go back to Plades original question.

Faith is obviously just that. A blinkered acceptance of doctrine. The belief that what you've been told is true even though you know there is absolutely no proof other the words and teachings of other men.

To accept anything other reasoning would to deny God. To cease to have faith.

For this reason there is no opportunity to have the debate. Because if you accept something as true based on Faith alone then even having the debate effectively proves the disbelievers right.

Perhaps the interesting question is who or what will replace God when they do realise the lessons of history?

[pladecalvo]

There will be a replacement, you can be sure of that. There always has been a "god" to replace the one that dies out..... because some people just can't imagine life without some great 'power' looking after them. There can't be many people on this planet who still think that Zeus, Mithra or Dionysus still exist . Yahweh and Jesus will travel the same road as Osiris and Horus ....eventually.

[Desert Blade]

I for one know that there is some form of "creator". Rather this is an aware being or not is a mystery. Is there a heaven or hell? Any form of afterlife? You will probably never know until you pass on. In the mean time, I believe that all of these Gods where what people used to give themselves hope and comfort. The Gods varied with time and location. Before poeple understood things like volcanos, the actually believed that a God of some sorts was angry and that a sacrafice would make it all better. Would it have been better to tell them that its completely up to a series of un-controllable physical factores set into motion by techtonic activity? Of course not. That, would have destroyed mans feeling of control. There would have been even more panic and fear. Without these Gods of the past and present, I think that people would start to realise just how much control we really lack in this world. And without something to have faith in, to bring us comfort, there would be a fundemental feeling of helplessness. We would feel alone and lost. As times change, so do we. Things that could not be explained in the past were said to be acts of a God. As science and knowledge have answered some of these mysteries, new Gods have been "discovered" that act and promise based on the current times. So, I guess they never really went away. They just got "a make over". As I said, I do believe in a creator. Someone or someTHING that put what we know as existance into motion. Rather it be a "living" being, or just a series of random evolutionary acts, something had to make ANYTHING exist, for it all to get started. I am very open to religions. WHere I do not understand them all, and probably never will, I do take note that they all have ONE thing in common. HOPE. And no matter what your GOD may be.......who would want to live without a feeling that it all matters?


Fox

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by Desert Blade

I for one know that there is some form of "creator".

Really?? Would you care to share this 'knowledge' with the rest of humanity....or do you mean that you believe there to be some form of "creator"? There is a vast difference between knowing and believing.

Before poeple understood things like volcanos, the actually believed that a God of some sorts was angry and that a sacrafice would make it all better. Would it have been better to tell them that its completely up to a series of un-controllable physical factores set into motion by techtonic activity? Of course not.

Undoubtedly it would!! Why do you think it better that people believe something that just isn't true?

That, would have destroyed mans feeling of control. There would have been even more panic and fear. Without these Gods of the past and present, I think that people would start to realise just how much control we really lack in this world.

....but theists don't have any "feeling of control." That's why they believe in gods....because it removes the responsibility of "control" out of their hands. They don't believe that they have control of their lives but that their lives are being controlled by gods.

And without something to have faith in, to bring us comfort, there would be a fundemental feeling of helplessness. We would feel alone and lost.

Nonsense!! There are millions of non believers on this planet who are not plunged into the depths of hopelessness and helplessness because they don't have supernatural entities to cling on to.

As times change, so do we. Things that could not be explained in the past were said to be acts of a God. As science and knowledge have answered some of these mysteries, new Gods have been "discovered" that act and promise based on the current times.

Which is what I'm saying. As we discover more, the current stack of "gods" will become obsolete... as the gods of the past became obsolete.

As I said, I do believe in a creator. Someone or someTHING that put what we know as existance into motion. Rather it be a "living" being, or just a series of random evolutionary acts, something had to make ANYTHING exist, for it all to get started.

Which leaves you to answer the question 'Who/what created the creator...and the creator of that creator...ad infinitum'!! If something "had to make anything work for it all to get started' then you leave yourself open to an infinite regression of creators.

And no matter what your GOD may be.......who would want to live without a feeling that it all matters?

Have you ever considered that there just might not be any purpose to life?

[dr256]

Correct me if I'm wrong DB but you seem to be saying:

You essentially believe in cause and effect. That something must have caused the universe for the effect which we see.
The prospect of knowing there's nothing is very discomforting, so we, quite naturally comfort ourselves with a sense of purpose and the possibility of being in charge.

Kinda in a nutshell yes?

In which case, is the answer to Plades question, where are they now?
In our subconscious just waiting for us to be in need of comfort. So the next time you hear of Zeus will be when we colonise Mars and have the sudden realisation...I'm very very far from home....

[Desert Blade]

Originally Posted by pladecalvo

Really?? Would you care to share this 'knowledge' with the rest of humanity....or do you mean that you believe there to be some form of "creator"? There is a vast difference between knowing and believing.

No matter WHAT it is that started the chain of events that led to the present day, SOMTHING had to make it. It dosnt have to be a God. It could have been strange clouds floating in the void that bumped into each other and started some form of evolution. In that scenario, the CLOUDS would be the form of "creator". When I say "some form of creator", I dont mean it has to be what we would call a "God". Based on that, ANYTHING could be a creator of what has led to NOW. Given the fact that we even exist, SOMETHING was created in some fashion along the way.[/quote]

Originally Posted by pladecalvo

Undoubtedly it would!! Why do you think it better that people believe something that just isn't true?

I agree. But what you or I may see as "truth" or "fact", may be unacceptable to some people. In my example, they would not have even been WILLING to accept a scientific fact. It would have been herrisy....or however its spelled. The lack of science and knowledge dictates that they would not have even been able to comprehend more than the basic message of "you may be about to die and theres nothing you can do about it..........by the way, your Gods are false and you may be about to step into oblivion". That would have shattered their very fabrics of reality as they knew it. Some people believe that we have been visited by extra terrestrials. Why would the government keep it secret? Because of the fear the truth would bring. Those in power wish to stay that way. A God on you side asures it. The minut something more powerful or PROVABLE comes along, your screwed. That would never be alowed in todays world.

Originally Posted by pladecalvo

....but theists don't have any "feeling of control." That's why they believe in gods....because it removes the responsibility of "control" out of their hands. They don't believe that they have control of their lives but that their lives are being controlled by gods.

Yes, but they feel that they have someone "in their corner". The control that they feel comes from believing that a God is watching and supporting them. By accepting the thought that whatever happens is the will of their God, good or bad, gives a loophole for what should be an obvious lack of self control.

Originally Posted by pladecalvo

Nonsense!! There are millions of non believers on this planet who are not plunged into the depths of hopelessness and helplessness because they don't have supernatural entities to cling on to.

I was not speaking of them. Only the theists.

Originally Posted by pladecalvo

Which is what I'm saying. As we discover more, the current stack of "gods" will become obsolete... as the gods of the past became obsolete.

And new Gods will be fashioned in different cultures based around the things that still cannot be scientificly explained.

Originally Posted by pladecalvo

Which leaves you to answer the question 'Who/what created the creator...and the creator of that creator...ad infinitum'!! If something "had to make anything work for it all to get started' then you leave yourself open to an infinite regression of creators.

It helps to remove "time" from your equasion. It may have always been. Saying that way back in time, something had to make somthing that made something else just doesnt make sence. But TIME was created by MAN as a means of measurement and the tracking of events relatively to ones present state. I will say though, the concept of something being "always" gives me a headache. Maybe its because of the way the world is organized, but, I cannot truely remove time as a factor without the thought seaming a little ubsurd.

Originally Posted by pladecalvo

Have you ever considered that there just might not be any purpose to life?

Sadly, if you believe in a theory similar to mine, that pretty much what it means. All a big accident, so to speak. Kinda takes some of the fun out of it huh? But, as I say, that doesnt mean you cant make the best of it!

Originally Posted by dr256

Correct me if I'm wrong DB but you seem to be saying:

You essentially believe in cause and effect. That something must have caused the universe for the effect which we see.
The prospect of knowing there's nothing is very discomforting, so we, quite naturally comfort ourselves with a sense of purpose and the possibility of being in charge.

Kinda in a nutshell yes?

In which case, is the answer to Plades question, where are they now?
In our subconscious just waiting for us to be in need of comfort. So the next time you hear of Zeus will be when we colonise Mars and have the sudden realisation...I'm very very far from home....

I would have to say that is a pretty good take on it yes. Im not saying that the Christians are wrong, or the Catholics, or the Bhuddists, or any other religion for that matter. Until we die, I dont think we will EVER truly know which, if any, of the beliefs are correct. It may turn out that when we die, we never even know it. Completely gone. That would open up a whole new level of wondering what is right, and why we were ever here in the first place.


As I said, im very open to religions. I like to think that ANYTHING is possible in this mysterious existance of ours. Half the fun is living, the other half is trying to discover the elusive truth.


Fox

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by Desert Blade

No matter WHAT it is that started the chain of events that led to the present day, SOMTHING had to make it. It dosnt have to be a God. It could have been strange clouds floating in the void that bumped into each other and started some form of evolution. In that scenario, the CLOUDS would be the form of "creator". When I say "some form of creator", I dont mean it has to be what we would call a "God". Based on that, ANYTHING could be a creator of what has led to NOW. Given the fact that we even exist, SOMETHING was created in some fashion along the way.



I agree. But what you or I may see as "truth" or "fact", may be unacceptable to some people. In my example, they would not have even been WILLING to accept a scientific fact. It would have been herrisy....or however its spelled. The lack of science and knowledge dictates that they would not have even been able to comprehend more than the basic message of "you may be about to die and theres nothing you can do about it..........by the way, your Gods are false and you may be about to step into oblivion". That would have shattered their very fabrics of reality as they knew it. Some people believe that we have been visited by extra terrestrials. Why would the government keep it secret? Because of the fear the truth would bring. Those in power wish to stay that way. A God on you side asures it. The minut something more powerful or PROVABLE comes along, your screwed. That would never be alowed in todays world.

Yes, but they feel that they have someone "in their corner". The control that they feel comes from believing that a God is watching and supporting them. By accepting the thought that whatever happens is the will of their God, good or bad, gives a loophole for what should be an obvious lack of self control.


I was not speaking of them. Only the theists.

And new Gods will be fashioned in different cultures based around the things that still cannot be scientificly explained.

It helps to remove "time" from your equasion. It may have always been. Saying that way back in time, something had to make somthing that made something else just doesnt make sence. But TIME was created by MAN as a means of measurement and the tracking of events relatively to ones present state. I will say though, the concept of something being "always" gives me a headache. Maybe its because of the way the world is organized, but, I cannot truely remove time as a factor without the thought seaming a little ubsurd.

Sadly, if you believe in a theory similar to mine, that pretty much what it means. All a big accident, so to speak. Kinda takes some of the fun out of it huh? But, as I say, that doesnt mean you cant make the best of it!

I would have to say that is a pretty good take on it yes. Im not saying that the Christians are wrong, or the Catholics, or the Bhuddists, or any other religion for that matter. Until we die, I dont think we will EVER truly know which, if any, of the beliefs are correct. It may turn out that when we die, we never even know it. Completely gone. That would open up a whole new level of wondering what is right, and why we were ever here in the first place.

As I said, im very open to religions. I like to think that ANYTHING is possible in this mysterious existance of ours. Half the fun is living, the other half is trying to discover the elusive truth.

Ah! Right, gotcha! Totally misinterpreted your previous post....sorry!

[Desert Blade]

Its all good. I usually dont get into religious talks for fear of upsetting someone, but it is a truly GREAT conversation I think. I love to hear other peoples beliefs and reasons. I guess I too am always looking for hope.


Fox

[TattooedGQ]

I didn't read the majority of this post because I'm sure it's going to be the same old thing.....but food for thought.....
Why not a Super Team of Deities....like a football team!

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by Desert Blade

Its all good. I usually dont get into religious talks for fear of upsetting someone....,

Oh, you should never fear that dude!

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by TattooedGQ

I didn't read the majority of this post because I'm sure it's going to be the same old thing.....but food for thought.....
Why not a Super Team of Deities....like a football team!

[dr256]

I like the big accident theory.
Somewhere there's a young God creature who is in real deep sh*t with its mum. Having set off a very big bang and waking up the entire nieghbourhood the local God community has been trying to clear up the mess for billions of years. Which explains why we haven't seen much of "god" recently - that sucker is grounded for eternity.

[06blackrockit]

god yes, god no, god only knows, life is short no matter what so hop on a bike & go for a ride & enjoy & love life for what it is now.

[lanbrown]

Originally Posted by dr256

I like the big accident theory.
Somewhere there's a young God creature who is in real deep sh*t with its mum. Having set off a very big bang and waking up the entire nieghbourhood the local God community has been trying to clear up the mess for billions of years. Which explains why we haven't seen much of "god" recently - that sucker is grounded for eternity.

I think the "Family Guy" bang theory was better. God farted and the universe was created.

[lanbrown]

Buddha Boy:
Nepal 'Buddha Boy' returns to jungle - Yahoo! News

[cherd]

The plethora of "Gods" listed in the original post resulted from many societies developing independently. In the past, large numbers of people were basically isolated from each other, yet, they all still desired answers to the same types of questions:

-Where did we come from?
-Why does the volcano explode?
-Is death the end?

Religion is the tool by which these relatively ignorant people satisfied their desire for answers to these questions. Many of these Gods have become "obsolete", mostly due to different societies conquering each other, and one having belief systems imposed by the other.

Personally, I believe that the days of "new" Gods being created on a large scale are over. Our knowledge of how the physical world works has advanced to the point that we no longer require illogical answers to what are now simple questions. I think the more likely case is that, with time, more and more people will tend to abandon religious beliefs. This will continue until all Gods become obsolete. In short, the days of Gods are coming to an end, and it's about time!

[pladecalvo]

Hear! Hear!

[jasonlakewhitne]

Where are they now?

For the most part science has effectively move them from the religious books into the mythological books. But there are still a few gods that have their followers and religious areas throughout.

Yes Ive seen people argue that number of followers and longevity of a religion are a good indication that it must be the right religion!

But why couldn't it be a good indication?

to an infinite regression of creators.

What if there was only one creator? (I am making a general statement about any deity. not one specific deity)

Referring to DB's comments about time.

What if time has no beginning and no end?
What if mankind only feels the need for time as a way to measure their existence? What if the whole of time is really just a cycle? Sun comes up then goes down. The planets rotate around the sun and you are born, you live, and you die. It seems like mankind is more dependent on time than we were 4,000 years ago.

Originally Posted by cherd
In short, the days of Gods are coming to an end, and it's about time!

It would seem so, that mankind is moving away from gods but at the same time replacing them with one that might be even worse.
Making gods out of mankind.

can anyone tell me the reason for us to exist exept for reproducing more humans which is possably also pointless.

Have you ever considered that there just might not be any purpose to life?

The Theory of Evolution explains how mankind came about, right.?
The Big Bang Theory explains how evolution was able to start, right.?
So with that, whatever it was that kicked off the Big Bang either gives mankind purpose or no purpose. If there was a creator to start of the Big Bang, then there should be purpose to our lives. But if the Big Bang start from nothing but heat, pressure, matter and by chance, then there is no purpose to our lives.

Maybe the real debate should be over whether there is purpose to our lives or not. If not, then your children and your bikes are worthless but if so, then huge your children and ask them if the want to go riding. Just a thought.

Jason

[dicknose]

Originally Posted by jasonlakewhitne

Maybe the real debate should be over whether there is purpose to our lives or not. If not, then your children and your bikes are worthless but if so, then huge your children and ask them if the want to go riding. Just a thought.

You can have purpose to your life without it being from "God" or "the universe"

You can simply decide yourself what the purpose is for your life!
Or if you want to get all evolutionary you could argue its a combination of
- continuing your genes (via your kids or close relatives such as nieces or nephews)
- fitting into and hopefully improving society, being social creates thats one of the reasons to our success and not surprisingly many people find this rewarding
- improving technology - a more recent and specific version of improving society. Think Einstein!
- being remembered - a common desire, which at first seems odd when really who would care about being remembered when your dead? But it could easily be a side effect of a social system were people want to be popular.

So lots of different "meaning of life" that many people would claim. All can be seen to be shallow in some ways but also can be seen to be a by-product of our human social system.

It doesnt make them any less real if they are chosen by people rather than some absolute set by a greater power.

[trippa]

Your discussion is quite interesting with some truth to it. Over the centuries mankind has fashioned various gods, but by definition they are all false gods. Paul, the anti-christian Saul who became a strong believe in Jesus as God in the flesh, asked what power can these gods have fashoned with human hands(& minds). It has been said that we have a god shaped vacuum in each of us & we try & fill it with all manner of things, but only the one, true God can fill it perfectly. The New Testament talks of God loving us & wanting each one to have a personal relationship with Him, but that idea is completely foreign to people who believe in Allah,(the moon god), & many other present or past religions. You indicated that human beings need to believe in the concept of a god out of a need for comfort & purposefulness. Paul in a way addresses this by boldly saying that if Jesus was not bodily raised from the dead(thus meaning he was not God as he claimed) then we have no hope & are to be pitied. He didn't say that it did matter it was untrue as Jesus gave us some wonderful ways to live & relate to people. He does praise God for the fact that Jesus was resurrected & is God. God, who created time & space, is the one who placed in us this need for Him, but only the one,true living God can completely satisfy. Only this true God(the Father, the Son Jesus, & the Holy Spirit) will never past away from the scene.