[pladecalvo]

Jeb'


If the Bible is to be considered as the "Word of God", reasonable proof of even one untruth is sufficient enough to discredit the Bible.

I would like start by drawing your attention to the Ezekiel "prophecies" regarding the city of Tyre which, as you should know, refers to Ezekiel's promise that Nebuchadnezzar would completely destroy Tyre and it would never be rebuilt. Nebby did not destroy Tyre as the prophecy claimed he would...he didn’t even capture it. As for Tyre never being rebuilt, it is today, the second most populated city in Lebanon. The prophecy clearly failed and the Bible is proved errant.

Furthermore. Ezekiel prophesised that your god would give Egypt to Nebby as compensation for his failure to take Tyre as the prophecy had predicted, (so even Ezekiel himself admits that his Tyre prophecy failed), but this prophecy also failed. The prophecy was that Egypt would be a land of "utter waste and a desolation" from Migdol in the north to the border of Ethiopia in the south. So thorough would the devastation be that "neither foot of man nor foot of beast would pass through it, and it would be uninhabited for 40 years and the Egyptians would be scattered among the nations. At the end of the 40 years, your bible says that your god would gather the Egyptians back to their country from where they had been scattered, but Egypt would forever be "the lowliest of kingdoms".

Needless to say, none of this ever happened. There are no historical records of a 40-year period when Egypt was so desolate that neither animals nor humans inhabited it, and the population of Egypt was never scattered among the nations and then re-gathered to its homeland. Its political influence has fluctuated through the centuries, but there has never been a time when it could have been considered the "lowliest of kingdoms." Again, the prophecy failed and the Bible is proved errant.

How say you?

[JEBSTER52]

O ye children of so little faith...let the schooling begin...in his name!

Ezekiel 26:3 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up.
4. And they shall destroy the walls of TYrus, and break down her towers; I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock.

Tyre was the greatest city of the Phoenicians, who were preeminent maritime people of the ancient world. This was the small coastal nation, now more or less the region occupied by Lebanon.Nebuchadnezzer did destroy walls and towers of Tyre when he invaded her during the period 585-572 B.C.. However, many of her people escaped to an island near the coast, where their city continued strong and properous for another 250 years.

5. It shall be a place for the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God: and it shall become a spoil to nations.

Alexander the GReat, in expanding his Greek empire, was finally able to reach and conquer the island city of TYre in 332 B.C., by building a causeway to it out of the ruins out of the old mainland city, literally "scraping the dust" from her leaving it "like the top of a rock."

The Bible in Ezekiel 26:4 stated "they shall destroy thy walls and break down her towers...the words are exactly stated as it happened!
The island city seems to survive today as a poor village, barren, rocky and used only for the spreading of fisherman's nets to dry! (Ezekiel 26:14

THis remarkable prophecy was literally fulfilled over 250 years later when Alexander built his causeway to the island out of the "stones" and "timber" and "dust" of the old city, leaving it as bare as the top of a rock!

The Prophecies of God's word may be given far in advance of their fullfilment, but are always fullfilled eventually and literally and completely!

I suggest you re-read those scriptures and this time slow down and pray for the wisdom to see how they unfold as not to be fooled once again.

As to EGypt my friend you must remember that she was never doomed as to extinction as were Edom, Ammon, Sodom and others, but doomed to never rise again. It is also true that the written knowledge of those forty years would not have been reported by the historians of ancient Egypt. But the forty year period of complete desolation is still future, in the early years of the coming age. The greater judgment or day of the Lord coming in the battles of the last days! Jeb The game continues....

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by JEBSTER52

O ye children of so little faith...let the schooling begin...in his name!

Ezekiel 26:3 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up.
4. And they shall destroy the walls of TYrus, and break down her towers; I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock.

Nice try dude but why don't you include the part of the prophecy that we are discussing rather than a part that is not relevant?

Here is the part we are discussing:

Ezekiel 26:7-14
For thus says the Lord: "Behold I will bring upon Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, and with horsemen and a hosts of many soldiers. He will set up a siege wall against you. He will direct the shock of his battering rams against your walls, and with his axes he will break down your towers...With the hoofs of his horses he will trample all your streets; he will slay your people with the sword and your mighty pillar will fall to the ground...they will break down your walls and destroy your pleasant houses... I will make you a bare rock...you shall never be rebuilt, for I have spoken," says the Lord God.

The whole passage clearly prophesied the sack and complete destruction of Tyre by Nebuchadnezzar. However, the sack and fall of Tyre never happened. After a siege of thirteen years, Nebuchadnezzar lifted his siege on Tyre and had to arrive at a compromised agreement. Thus Nebuchadnezzar did not destroy Tyre. Tyre was destroyed by Alexander the Great, 240 years later. And furthermore, despite the prophet, the city of Tyre was eventually rebuilt.

Tyre was the greatest city of the Phoenicians, who were preeminent maritime people of the ancient world. This was the small coastal nation, now more or less the region occupied by Lebanon.Nebuchadnezzer did destroy walls and towers of Tyre when he invaded her during the period 585-572 B.C.. However, many of her people escaped to an island near the coast, where their city continued strong and properous for another 250 years.

For your information, Tyre’s main city was always on the island. Both the Hebrew name (Zor) and the Arabic name (Sour) of Tyre mean "rock," and the only rock around is the island. The surrounding mainland is rather flat, and it is hard to see how one could make a "rock" out of flat land, even if the land had been rocky. Relief from the Bronze gates of Balawat of Shalmaneser III (858-824 BCE) show Tyre paying tribute. This tribute is brought from an ISLAND by boat; Tyre proper is identified as an island city--not a mainland settlement. Esarhaddon (680-669 BC) of Assyria boasts of conquering Tyre, which is identified as an island. "I CONQUERED TYRE, WHICH IS (AN ISLAND) AMIDST THE SEA."

If you don't accept that you can always reference The Encyclopaedia of the Orient which says:
"Tyre was originally built on an island right off the coast, providing for natural defence. Many functions were established on the mainland as well, but all important institutions remained on the island."

The part of the city on the mainland is nothing more than a suburb. In other words, Nebuchadnezzar could achieve no more than take over a relatively minor suburb of the city. It is obvious from the passage in Ezekiel that the complete destruction of the city of Tyre by Nebuchadnezzar was prophesised.

Alexander the GReat, in expanding his Greek empire, was finally able to reach and conquer the island city of TYre in 332 B.C., by building a causeway to it out of the ruins out of the old mainland city, literally "scraping the dust" from her leaving it "like the top of a rock."

The prophecy has nothing to do with Alexander. Read it again. It says Nebuchadnezzar NOT Alexander will totally destroy Tyre and it will never be rebuilt. Nebby did not destroy Tyre, it was Alexander 240 years later that did that, yet you desperately clutch at straws to claim fulfilment of the prophecy by crediting Alexander the Great with Tyre's destruction when the actual prophecy specifically names Nebuchadnezzar.

The Bible in Ezekiel 26:4 stated "they shall destroy thy walls and break down her towers...the words are exactly stated as it happened!

By Nebby not Alexander. It didn't happen dude...no matter how much you try to squirm and credit someone else with the destruction. Nowhere in the prophecy is anyone other than Nebuchadnezzar mentioned. And if you want further proof that the prophecy failed you can read this:

Ezekiel 29:17-20
...the Lord God came to me: “Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon made his army labour hard against Tyre; every head was made bald and every shoulder was rubbed bare; yet neither he nor his army got anything from Tyre to pay for the labour that he had performed against it...”

THis remarkable prophecy was literally fulfilled over 250 years later when Alexander built his causeway to the island out of the "stones" and "timber" and "dust" of the old city, leaving it as bare as the top of a rock!

But unfortunately for you, it was supposed to be Nebuchadnezzar not Alexander that fulfilled the prophecy. Go read it again at the top of this post.

As to EGypt my friend you must remember that she was never doomed as to extinction as were Edom, Ammon, Sodom and others, but doomed to never rise again. It is also true that the written knowledge of those forty years would not have been reported by the historians of ancient Egypt. But the forty year period of complete desolation is still future, in the early years of the coming age. The greater judgment or day of the Lord coming in the battles of the last days! Jeb The game continues....

Let's take a look:

Ezekiel 29:8-12
Thus says the Lord God...and the land of Egypt shall be a desolation and a waste....no foot of man shall pass through it and no foot of beast shall pass through it; it shall be uninhabited for forty years. And I will make the city of Egypt a desolation in the midst of desolated countries; and her cities shall be desolate for forty years. I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations and disperse them through the countries."

This passage must take the cake for the most prophecies proven wrong!

Egypt has never been desolate and waste.
Men and people have always walked through it.
There has never been a single moment (let alone forty years) when Egypt was uninhabited.
Egypt has never been a desolated countries surrounded by more desolated countries.
Its cities has never been desolated for any period of time
....and finally there was no Egyptian diaspora.

The prophecy claims that Egypt would be given to Nebuchadnezzar as compensation for him having failed to destroy Tyre (further proof that the Tyre prophecy failed). Nebby was to destroy Egypt to the extent that foot of man nor foot of beast will pass through it for a period of 40 years. Didn't happen!

.....and:
Ezekiel 29:20
I have given him (Nebuchadnezzar) the land of Egypt as his recompense for which he has laboured...says the Lord God."

Well I suggest you consult history on this one because you will find that Nebuchadnezzar NEVER conquered Egypt.

You even admit that it didn't happen because your claim is that it will happen in the future. The only way that would work is if you completely ignore some rather explicit language in the prophecy (which predictably you are doing). The prophecy begins with Biblegod telling Ezekiel to "set his face against Pharaoh king of Egypt" and "to prophesy against him" and to say, "Behold I am against you, O Pharaoh, king of Egypt." Specific language is also directed to "Pharaoh king of Egypt" Furthermore, the prophecy was very clear in stating that this desolation of Egypt would be done by Nebuchadnezzar, who would be "brought in to destroy the land" and to "fill the land with the slain".

Needless to say, the rule of the pharaohs ended in Egypt centuries ago, and Nebuchadnezzar has been dead even longer, so if the total desolation of Egypt and scattering of its population did not happen in that era, it is reasonable to say that the prophecy failed.

Your sometime in the future explanation is such a resort to desperation that it hardly deserves comment. You admit that it didn't happen at the time of Nebby and the pharaohs because you say it will happen in the future yet you ignore the fact that the prophecy names Nebuchadnezzar as the dude who will make Egypt desolate for 40 years..and Nebuchadnezzar is long dead. Your sometime in the future claim also shows Biblegod to be a petty, vindictive deity who will punish Egyptians in the distant future for something that their ancestors did, and it makes possible the explanation of any prophecy failure in any religion. Believers in the prophecy could simply say that even though it has not yet been fulfilled, it will be "someday." That type of "logic" may impress biblical fundamentalists Jeb, but rational people will see it for exactly what it is--desperation to cling to belief in prophecies that have been discredited by time.

[pladecalvo]

BTW learned colleagues...I did not mean that this thread should be restricted to Jeb. Please feel free to throw in your 2 cents.

[sumthin_major]

No no , your doing just fine. Where's Ned Flanders?

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by JEBSTER52

As to EGypt my friend you must remember that she was never doomed as to extinction as were Edom, Ammon, Sodom and others, but doomed to never rise again.

Egypt would know great power and wealth under the Polemicists and Egypt would be the grain basket for the ancient world, and its city of Alexandria was the greatest city in the Hellenistic world. So as far as "never rising again"... the prophecy was simply false old chap...sorry!

It is also true that the written knowledge of those forty years would not have been reported by the historians of ancient Egypt.

Why ever not? You think that Egypt suddenly went into a 40 year period of complete and utter desolation and not one Egyptian historian thought it worthy of mention? What about all the countries that were trading with Egypt....you'd think at least one person in all those countries might have thought it rather odd that suddenly, in Egypt, nobody was answering the phone.

But the forty year period of complete desolation is still future, in the early years of the coming age. The greater judgment or day of the Lord coming in the battles of the last days!

I see! So as the prophecy specifically mentions Nebuchadnezzar and the Pharaohs....you think that sometime in the future Nebby is going to make a comeback and that modern day Egypt will totally dismantle it's political structure and revert to being ruled by a Pharaoh again?

[sumthin_major]

Just wait till all the kids hear about RA

[JEBSTER52]

All OT Phophesy is referencing the endtimes as is recorded in Revelations, so of course it will take place in the future. Daniel and Ezekiel and John on the Island of Patmos are all speaking about the world as it will be in the last days!

[pladecalvo]

Why don't you respond to posts 3 and 6 Jeb?

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by JEBSTER52

All OT Phophesy is referencing the endtimes as is recorded in Revelations, so of course it will take place in the future.

So what you are claiming is that Nebuchadnezzar is going to make a comeback and Egypt will revert to being ruled by a Pharaoh. Is that really what you think?

The facts of history are what they are Jeb and they are not going to change just because you don't want to believe them....and the facts of history are that.....

Nebuchadnezzar did not destroy the city of Tyre as your Bible predicted. The prophecy failed and the Bible is proven errant...Q.E.D

Tyre is presently a thriving city despite the prophecy saying it would never be rebuilt. The prophecy failed...Q.E.D

Nebuchadnezzar never ruled in Egypt as Biblegod promised he would. The prophecy failed and the Bible is proven errant ....Q.E.D

Egypt has never been a desolate wasteland devoid of man and beast. The prophecy failed and the Bible is proven errant...Q.E.D.

Your consistent attempts to proclaim that the things we have been discussing will happen "in the future" is clearly a desperate attempt to cling to a belief in prophecies that history has proved to have failed miserably.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by sumthin_major

No no , your doing just fine. Where's Ned Flanders?

lmao, yip was going to say your both doing a great job but \¦/

Originally Posted by JEBSTER52

All OT Phophesy is referencing the endtimes as is recorded in Revelations, so of course it will take place in the future. Daniel and Ezekiel and John on the Island of Patmos are all speaking about the world as it will be in the last days!

Come on Jeb your letting your side down now, or am I right in thinking he was just playing devils advocate

By the way Plade why cant God tell a little fib just to keep us on our toes?

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by setanta

By the way Plade why cant God tell a little fib just to keep us on our toes?

According the Bible:

Psalms 101:7, "He that worketh deceit shall not dwell within my house: he that telleth lies shall not tarry in my sight."

Leviticus 6:1-4, "And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, If a soul sin, and commit a trespass against the LORD, and lie unto his neighbour…or hath deceived his neighbour…and lieth concerning it, and sweareth falsely; in any of all these that a man doeth, sinning therein: Then it shall be, because he hath sinned, and is guilty,"

Leviticus 19:11, "Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another."

Psalms 58:3, "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

Psalms 63:11, "...the mouth of them that speak lies shall be stopped."

So according to the above...and about 100 others I could drag up, the "Word of God", says lying is a "sin." and Biblegod can't abide "sin". So if Biblegod lies he commits "sin".

[setanta]

Originally Posted by pladecalvo

According the Bible:

Psalms 101:7, "He that worketh deceit shall not dwell within my house: he that telleth lies shall not tarry in my sight."

Leviticus 6:1-4, "And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, If a soul sin, and commit a trespass against the LORD, and lie unto his neighbour…or hath deceived his neighbour…and lieth concerning it, and sweareth falsely; in any of all these that a man doeth, sinning therein: Then it shall be, because he hath sinned, and is guilty,"

Leviticus 19:11, "Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another."

Psalms 58:3, "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

Psalms 63:11, "...the mouth of them that speak lies shall be stopped."

So according to the above...and about 100 others I could drag up, the "Word of God", says lying is a "sin." and Biblegod can't abide "sin". So if Biblegod lies he commits "sin".

Oh no no no you see human lying is a sin but nowhere does it state in the bible or any other religious literature that God cant jest, I mean he did give us the ability to do so and as we are made in his image then it must be something that he can do as well, except of course that He is above (well above) Human restrictions. Also as the bible states it a sin against God, now if God were to jest a little it wouldnt matter cause God cant Sin against himself, sinning is for humans.

[pladecalvo]

Ah! So Biblegod is not prepared to behave in the same way as he expects us to behave?

Well I'm quite happy with saying that Biblegod tells lies but I don't think the Christians will buy it mate!!

[Sideshow bob]

Damn Plade

are you on a one man crusade against religion?

What happened to trigger this? did Religion bully you at school? steal your dinner money? eh!

But ..
isn't this where all your arguments fall down.....

Originally Posted by pladecalvo

According the Bible:

The bible is the writings of man, translated, changed, corrupted, retranslated burried in the desert, dug up, retranslated (again), edited, added to then bound in leather and passed of as the word of God.

But.....
never has it been claimed that God wrote it, he didn't even do the preface

so how can it be taken of proof of his existance or non existance as it is mans interpritation of what God should be

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by Sideshow bob

Damn Plade

are you on a one man crusade against religion?

What happened to trigger this? did Religion bully you at school? steal your dinner money? eh!

The vicar stole my sweets!!

But ..
isn't this where all your arguments fall down.....
The bible is the writings of man, translated, changed, corrupted, retranslated burried in the desert, dug up, retranslated (again), edited, added to then bound in leather and passed of as the word of God.

Well quite...but I'm not arguing FOR the Bible I'm arguing AGAINST it.

But.....
never has it been claimed that God wrote it, he didn't even do the preface

....but it is claimed that it is his "Word" and that he "inspired" and "guided" the writers.

so how can it be taken of proof of his existance or non existance as it is mans interpritation of what God should be

It can't!

[setanta]

Originally Posted by pladecalvo

Ah! So Biblegod is not prepared to behave in the same way as he expects us to behave?

Well I'm quite happy with saying that Biblegod tells lies but I don't think the Christians will buy it mate!!

Why would he, he created us, we are his experiment not his equal, surely we have no right to even believe that we can aspire to "be" as he is?

I see no reason why Christians or any other religion should not bye it, come to think of it I have never come across the theology whereby it states that God dosnt "lie or jest"
Surely they have no right to tell us (or God) what he/she should do or not do thats entirely up to him/her/it.

Originally Posted by Sideshow bob

But.....
never has it been claimed that God wrote it, he didn't even do the preface

so how can it be taken of proof of his existance or non existance as it is mans interpritation of what God should be

Very true there SSB it is the writings of man so I suppose it does strengthen the arguement that God is only a figment of mans imagination

[Sideshow bob]

Originally Posted by pladecalvo

Well quite...but I'm not arguing FOR the Bible I'm arguing AGAINST it.
!

Got that.....

my point is.....

just becouse the bible is corrupted doesn't mean God dosn't exist....

I could happily write a book about my blade and how it runs on cream cheese and is fashioned out of virgins nostril hair...

some people would believe.. some wouldn't...

but the blade would still exist

[setanta]

Originally Posted by Sideshow bob

Got that.....

my point is.....

just becouse the bible is corrupted doesn't mean God dosn't exist....

I could happily write a book about my blade and how it runs on cream cheese and is fashioned out of virgins nostril hair...

some people would believe.. some wouldn't...

but the blade would still exist

All hail the vestal virgin blade

(mm does that mean she is not for riding?)

[Sideshow bob]

Originally Posted by setanta

All hail the vestal virgin blade

Ah.... a convert....

Come bask in her creamy nasal hairness*.

*now give ME all your money & possesions.... I mean give it!

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by Sideshow bob

Got that.....

my point is.....

just becouse the bible is corrupted doesn't mean God dosn't exist....

The claim that "God" exists is Biblical... and if the Bible is proven to be errant in other claims, which it is, why wouldn't we believe that it's claim that "God exists" is also errant. If Biblegod does exist, why has he allowed the Bible (his "Word") to become corrupted?

[setanta]

Originally Posted by pladecalvo

The claim that "God" exists is Biblical... and if the Bible is proven to be errant in other claims, which it is, why wouldn't we believe that it's claim that "God exists" is also errant. If Biblegod does exist, why has he allowed the Bible (his "Word") to become corrupted?

The general point of the bible is to document the influence of God upon humanity, now lets see if it has done that and even you have to answer that question with an affirmative.
Look at the number of Christians there are in the World today, other faiths have also been influenced by writings from the bible. So wither or not there are mistakes or wayward passages found within the texts, it still is doing its job well. To actually claim that the bible is errant I find completely futile bcause millions of people believe that it is not delinquent, naughty or sinful as you claim.
So wither or not you believe in it or not the proof of the pudding is that God's Book is working fairly well for him.

[lanbrown]

Is the bible fiction or non-fiction?

[Sideshow bob]

Originally Posted by pladecalvo

The claim that "God" exists is Biblical... and if the Bible is proven to be errant in other claims, which it is, why wouldn't we believe that it's claim that "God exists" is also errant.

But...
just as my claim about the blade is false and can be proven so.. it wouldn't prove the non-existance of blades....

Originally Posted by pladecalvo
If Biblegod does exist, why has he allowed the Bible (his "Word") to become corrupted?

I don't think this bibleGod exists.. so he couldn't care less what man claims to be his words.....

think of us more as gods wind up toys.. he has wound the spring and has now put us on the floor to see what happens........

and what has happened as we run around the floor...

we (The toys) have blamed the winderuperer for hitting the wall.. while he's still waiting for the whirring to stop

[setanta]

Originally Posted by lanbrown

Is the bible fiction or non-fiction?

Maybe have a quick guack at the other posts

[lanbrown]

Originally Posted by setanta

Maybe have a quick guack at the other posts

But you miss the point. If some of the stories in the bible are false, how can you trust the others?

[setanta]

Originally Posted by lanbrown

But you miss the point. If some of the stories in the bible are false, how can you trust the others?

No your missing my point all our posts are true, so go see where that takes you..........confused yet, join the queue?

[00blade]

Originally Posted by pladecalvo

Why don't you respond to posts 3 and 6 Jeb?

He probably has a life and doesn't have time to go on and on forever like you do. Your posts are so long, I don't have the patience to read them all. Although I would be interested in Jeb's perspective on the Nebucadnezzar thing.

[sumthin_major]

Originally Posted by lanbrown

Is the bible fiction or non-fiction?

When I was in high school I worked in a library. We kept the bible and any other religious works in the fiction section including the koron.(I dont know how to spell it)

[setanta]

Originally Posted by Sideshow bob

But...
just as my claim about the blade is false and can be proven so.. it wouldn't prove the non-existance of blades....
I don't think this bibleGod exists.. so he couldn't care less what man claims to be his words.....

think of us more as gods wind up toys.. he has wound the spring and has now put us on the floor to see what happens........

and what has happened as we run around the floor...

we (The toys) have blamed the winderuperer for hitting the wall.. while he's still waiting for the whirring to stop

It could prove the non existance of the vvb because (of course, taking the book to a new dimension for sake of arguement) we the humans could check it out for ourselves and then the truth would be included in the new version of said "bible" In regards to the real Bible, there is no way is it possible for us (humans) to disprove the existance of God.

The idea of wind up toys falls in line with my own theory that we are just experiments and if we take the universe in as well it is quite easy to see that God maybe conducting or creating different toys or experiments in other areas of the universe to see which one pleases him the most. Or to see which one lives up to his expectations of us as a race.
Secondly he also maybe experimenting with us in different forms again to see which one works the best.
The question has to be asked why is the universe so vast and why there are so many systems that could be harbouring life and of course why life at all?
The more you read into the Great experiment or as SSB states wind up toys and hitting walls, it is easier to make so much sense out of this world, if it wasnt an experiment then surely God would exact more control over us so that we could have a great and happy life each and everyone of us.
I know this is getting slightly away from the Bible itself and moving onto God and his reasonings, perceived or not.
Unfortunately the way I see it they two are interlinked and somewhere down the line someone managed to get a little closer to the theories of God. Now as we know when it was written, it was to help superstitious, naieve humans to be come civilised and to be fairly honest it hasnt done a bad job at that. Also the other aspect of the Bible is proffered in a previous post by me.
So in essence Ian it dosnt matter wither it is fact or fiction, it has a role and is doing it quite nicely. OK modern man needs a bit more, science and philosophy is helping there, never mind modern theology.