[cherd]

Evolutionists claim that modern humans and modern great apes share a common ancestor. This line of reasoning was presented by early evolutionary scientists based on the obvious similarities between the animal types. Eventually science progressed to a point where we understood the role of, and could characterize the genetic material within each living cell in a basic way (count chromosomes). At this point an anomaly was presented, humans posses 23 chromosome pairs whereas apes posses 24 chromosome pairs. Creationists have long assumed that this anomaly represented proof against common ancestry. From a scientific standpoint, this anomaly required explanation. It was determined that there were 2 possible explanations, a chromosome pair was deleted, or 2 chromosome pairs had fused into 1. Since the deletion of a chromosome pair in primates would almost assuredly produce an organism that could not effectively survive, chromosome fusion was the overriding theory. If correct, this theory predicted that when technology progressed to a point where characterization at the base pair level was possible, evidence for chromosome fusion would be observed. Well, the Human Genome Project was completed in 2003, and guess what they found.

When most of us envision a chromosome we think of the characteristic X shaped structure. The X shape is formed by the conjunction of 2 chromatids, which are typically joined near their centers at the point where the lines cross in the X. Each chromotid has a specific sequence of base pairs near their center called a centromere; the centromeres represent the points at which the chromatids join to form the X (Figure 1). The tip of each chromotid contains another specific sequence of base pairs called telomeres (Figure 1). If two chromosomes had fused, then we should expect to find a chromosome with a total of 4 centromere sequences and 8 telomere sequences (as opposed to 2 and 4 on a normal chromosome). This was found to be the case with Human Chromosome 2 (Figure 2). The centromeres that are not connected are inactivated centomere sequence remnants.



These results suggest very strongly that telomere to telomere chromosome fusion has taken place. And, thanks to the fact that we have also sequenced the genome of great apes, we even know which chromosomes were fused. Human chromosome 2 corresponds to the fusion of chimp, guerilla, and orangutan chromosomes 12 and 13 (also referred to as 2p and 2q). In fact, if we were to line ape chromosomes 12 and 13 together end to end, the base pair sequence is nearly perfect, including the corresponding locations of centromeres and telomeres. Figure 3 illustrates this. The actual chromosome 2 contains nearly 250 million base pairs which constitute approximately 1500 genes, but I’ve represented a few genes with 4 different colors (blue, green, grey, and pink).



This whole scenario presents extremely strong (possibly irrefutable) proof of common ancestry. Would a creator include properties designed to trick us into thinking that he doesn’t exist?

Check these out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi8FfMBYCkk
Human and Ape Chromosomes

[pladecalvo]

A good one for 'you know where' cherd!

[cherd]

Ya, two bangs for the buck.

[denzee]

This came at a good time. My daughter, who finished her Bachelor of Forensic Science with Honors and I talk about these things often and she is pretty much on side with you guys but would call herself more agnostic I think. One thing that really bothers her about this whole thing and maybe you guys can explain, is the human brains ability to plan ahead for the future and understand consequences of actions is apparently very unique to humans. No animal can do anything but instinct. Problem is 99% of our genetic makeup is identical to primates as the video indicates but when the 1% difference is studied, they find nothing to account for our brains being as they are. Do you know of an explanation for this? Just maybe therein lies the soul.
By the way I couldn't help but notice that Ken Miller in the video said he is a theist. Go figure.

[cherd]

Originally Posted by denzee

This came at a good time. My daughter, who finished her Bachelor of Forensic Science with Honors and I talk about these things often and she is pretty much on side with you guys but would call herself more agnostic I think.

With honors eh, you must be proud. Tell her that the forum monkeys say congratulations!

Originally Posted by denzee

One thing that really bothers her about this whole thing and maybe you guys can explain, is the human brains ability to plan ahead for the future and understand consequences of actions is apparently very unique to humans. No animal can do anything but instinct.

Not everything that animals do is instinctual. Most vertebrates show the ability to learn to varying degrees. Whether it is a trick (with expectation of a treat) or things that they should or shouldn’t do to avoid danger or pain, the best way to go about getting food, etc, etc. Whenever an animal displays a learned behavior, it is doing so in order to achieve some outcome. Since the end result of the behavior is an outcome, the animal is effectively planning ahead for the future. In doing this they are displaying cognitive reasoning. The thing that separates humans is that our cognitive reasoning skills are obviously developed to a much higher degree.

One thing to keep in mind is that evolution is essentially blind. It’s not a system geared toward producing intelligent organisms. Evolution is dependent upon mutation, which is random by nature. Natural selection simply ensures that organisms suitable for survival within a given environment will persist, and those that are not suitable will die off. There are many qualities that may make an organism suitable for survival. The organism could be stronger, faster, fatter, thinner, more hairy, less hairy, longer toothed, longer necked, or more intelligent.

Highly developed intelligence just happens to be the niche that humans filled in their environment. But, increased intelligence (larger brain) comes with a hefty price. Our brains use a large amount of energy as compared to other species. On average 20% of the calories that a human consumes is used up by their brain alone! With less calories to go around, we suffered in other important areas. For instance we could not maintain a large brain and large muscles at the same time (we are comparatively weak as compared to great apes). Our sense of smell, hearing, and taste is not as highly developed as in most other mammals. We rely completely on our intelligence for survival, whereas other animals do not. A wild dog can survive on instinct just fine without being extremely intelligent, he can effectively chase down food, obtain water, defend itself from predators, procreate, and pass on it’s genes. A human on the other hand cannot survive without intelligence. Can you imagine a human taking down a deer, or even catching a squirrel without tools (guns). Could a human effectively defend itself if it were systematically attacked by any animal bigger than a breadbox? We are not suited for extreme climates, and wouldn’t survive in even a moderately cold environment without the ability to utilize fire or build suitable shelters. The example may seem insensitive, but if you dropped off the family dog and a naked retarded man in the middle of the Rocky Mountains, who do you think would survive the longest?

We essentially became an extremely intelligent species by accident. The environment was right, the correct mutations occurred, and these mutations were maintained through generations. Intelligence is not the end goal of evolution; it is merely a happenstance byproduct. Life existed on this planet for hundreds of millions of years without sentian beings. If our species had stayed in the trees eating vegetation, we would not have evolved into our present form, yet life on this planet would go on just like it had before.

Originally Posted by denzee

Problem is 99% of our genetic makeup is identical to primates as the video indicates but when the 1% difference is studied, they find nothing to account for our brains being as they are. Do you know of an explanation for this? Just maybe therein lies the soul.

Yes, our genetic makeup is 99% similar to great apes, but the human genome contains around 3 billion base pairs! 1% of 3 billion actually leaves a lot of wiggle room. Geneticists have really just scratched the surface when it comes to determining the roles of individual genes, and isolation of genes that have direct effect on brain function is an extremely active area of current research. One thing that is apparent, however, is that our brains are physically different from other primates. When comparing a human to a great ape of comparable size, our brains are about 2.5 times more massive.

Originally Posted by denzee

By the way I couldn't help but notice that Ken Miller in the video said he is a theist. Go figure.

I guess some people just really don’t want to let go.

[denzee]

Wow, quite an explanation cherd and I'll pass on your congrats to her. To sum up what I asked then, through many mutations and time this has occured? We became intellegent by accident? They still don't fully know, other than our brain is physically much larger.
I'll see what she says but I would think she's been through all that and something is still in the way but I'll check. I must play the middleman here. Being a layperson though, even I feel that doesn't fully explain us. Do you personally have any trouble with this same thing as my daughter or are you totally comfortable with it?
She left for Florida today, Gulf side and I leave tomorrow for Ft Lauderdale so communication will be difficult compared to sitting across the dinner table.

[dicknose]

Originally Posted by denzee

To sum up what I asked then, through many mutations and time this has occured? We became intellegent by accident?

No exactly by accident - by selection.
Just those that were more likely to survive and reproduce were randomly more intelligent.

They still don't fully know, other than our brain is physically much larger.

But size isnt everything.
There is reasonable evidence that some earlier homid species had larger brains that others but didnt survive.

What was probably critical with our brain was when it got large enough to be able to make a "jump" to doing certain actions.
As mentioned above this is the high-level cognative thinking.
Some people say its planning, but other animals can plan and even co-ordinate activity (lions can show this in hunting as a group)
What we are good at is "putting ourselves in someone/something elses shoes". We can plan our actions by wondering what another person/animal would do.
The quirky variation on this is actually putting ourselves in "future me" shoes. I can plan for the future by considering what "I" will want then. But since I only ever live in the present, this is effectively putting myself in someone elses shoes (just that I will become that someone - possibly!)

One big question is - was this jump simply due to brain size or was some other brain activity the kick start. One suggestion is that some primitive language skills were developed and we can pass this on to the next generations. As these skills improved, our brains would select for better language. If the parts of the brain that do complex language also let us do this complex thinking/planning then it may have co-evolved, driven almost directly by language skills. Then once it had come about it became almost a more important thing that the language skills.
We can teach some apes and dolphins to communicate with us. They have some level of language ability wired into their brain. But they dont have that same ability to do complex thinking.

Evolution often seems to hi-jack things. A feature may evolve due to selection for a purpose, but ends up serving a different purpose, one that may have been much harder to get directly.

[cherd]

Originally Posted by denzee

I'll see what she says but I would think she's been through all that and something is still in the way but I'll check. I must play the middleman here. Being a layperson though, even I feel that doesn't fully explain us. Do you personally have any trouble with this same thing as my daughter or are you totally comfortable with it?

Hmm, I suppose that I can't claim to be 100% satisfied with it (more like 99.999%). In the end, everything that we are is our brain. A lump of organic matter that houses nerves and neurons that fire in particular sequences to keep our hearts beating, keep us breathing, instigate release of hormones or enzymes or chemicals that make us feel hungry, thirsty, or horny. Our brain collects, processes and interprets data collected from our surroundings (senses). It is also this lump of matter that feels love, compation, hatred, and greed. It allows us to contemplate complexities such as our existence and physical interaction of matter, space, and time in our universe.

Emotions are powerful in us. But, while they may seem abstract or random in some ways, they are merely results of evolution. We feel love and compation because these aspects make us better suited for survival. What we call the "love" that we have for our children is merely a property that was instilled to make sure that we protect them. Hatred drives us to destroy potential enemies; greed ensures that we and our families will have to resources needed to survive. When times get tough (which they often were during our evolution), the children that are most likely to survive are those with the most ruthless, greedy, loving parents.

We feel as though we are conscious, self aware, singular entities. That our decision-making processes and actions are not necessarily predetermined by basic instinct and natural law. But, we are basically just pre-programmed machines. We are robots with organic hardware and an extremely complex processing system running extremely complex software (brain). Our eyes, ears, and skin are input devices, and our voice and actions are outputs. The programs processed in our brains have one overriding goal, survival of the species. We get confused on the subject because we tend to think there is something more to the motives behind our actions. A good example is sex. We think that we desire sex because we "love" another person, or our brains tell us that we are horny. But the real motive behind sex is reproduction. Horniness is akin to hunger. We feel hunger to ensure that we eat, we feel horny to ensure that we have sex. But how often do we have sex thinking, "I must do this to have a baby". Not very often right, our preprogramming has tricked us!

But, it does seem as though there is something more doesn't it. Therein lies the 0.001% doubt in me, which tends to be a larger percentage in most people.

We want that sense of something more to be real. We want to feel different from the rest of the animal kingdom-we are special in some way right? Religion is a tool for satisfying this desire. Makes us feel as though we have a special place in the universe, that our sense of consciousness and self-awareness is real. But the truth, which can be hard to swallow, is that we are not different. Our bodies are of the same structure as dogs, cats, cows, monkeys, and pigs. We have the same organ systems, senses, genetics storage, and requirements. We are just more intelligent, a fluke of evolution.