JR Phoenix jacket aftermath

RRWANTR · 07-31-2003, 5:53 PM

Quote:

Chain : Quote (luvtolean @ July 31 2003, 12:00pm)I can't grasp the logic of the people with these Phoenix jackets. *This is at least the 5th time I've seen someone post how they worked like $hit in a wreck but people always defend them.

Five whole times?!

Come on now luv, I appreciate your passion and agree with you that leather's the best protection money can buy, but five examples does not a scientific study make.

You can draw nothing conclusive from five posts on an internet discussion board, pro or con, on Phoenix gear.
I can gaurantee you that we can find more than 5 cases where the phoenix held up WELL in a crash and there were minor or no injuries to the wearer.....fwiw I wear my phoenix to work (5 miles) and around town where the speeds aren't over 45....I'll take the protection the phoenix offers at that speed....when on a canyon run, on goes the 1 pc, back protector, boots, helmet and gloves...

luvtolean · 07-31-2003, 5:54 PM

Scientific? Hold a Bic lighter up to the Phoenix jacket. Try that again on a leather jacket. You tell me what happens.

Chain · 07-31-2003, 6:00 PM

Quote:

luvtolean : Scientific? *Hold a Bic lighter up to the Phoenix jacket. *Try that again on a leather jacket. *You tell me what happens.

What's a Bic lighter got to do with the price of tea in China!?

Luv, you're diminishing your credibility here.

RRWANTR · 07-31-2003, 6:04 PM

Quote:

Chain : Quote (luvtolean @ July 31 2003, 4:54pm)Scientific? *Hold a Bic lighter up to the Phoenix jacket. *Try that again on a leather jacket. *You tell me what happens.

What's a Bic lighter got to do with the price of tea in China!?

Luv, you're diminishing your credibility here.
I guess Luvs test pertains to when your pit crew forgets to tighten up your fuel cap and you end up in a ball of flame (ala edwards)..

luvtolean · 07-31-2003, 6:10 PM

No I'm not. *I'm advocating safety gear, and trying to convince people to ignore 'snake oil' safety gear.

A Bic lighter provides what? *Fire, which yields heat.

What does friction create 2 objects slide across each other? Heat.

Every person that mentions a JR Phoenix failure says it pretty much just melts as soon as it hits pavement.

Worsening the problem is the fact that this jacket has a higher coefficient of friction than leather. *This means as it slides, it will generate even more heat than leather, though it won't handle even a quarter of the temperature before it evaporates.

It would be fairly easy to estimate the temperature created by leather sliding across pavement, and show this melts a JR jacket extremely quickly.

I don't have a Phoenix but I swear to God, if I thought I could convince 10 riders to not buy this garbage I might actually spend my own time and money to show at how low a temp (Edit: and consequently how low a speed) this crap melts off.

ZX9RCAM · 07-31-2003, 6:14 PM

I had a buddy wreck at about 100mph wearing A Technic
mesh jacket (whatever they are) & the jacket was toast,
but he was absolutely unscratched.....VERY LUCKY, but
unscratched...

Heavy-Dee · 07-31-2003, 6:22 PM

So what have we learned? LTL had a mullet, but now has a sweet ass orange butch goin' on, and JR Phoenix jackets sometimes work.

I'm okay w/ that.

Tank69 · 07-31-2003, 7:13 PM

Quote:

Chain : Quote (luvtolean @ July 31 2003, 12:00pm)I can't grasp the logic of the people with these Phoenix jackets. *This is at least the 5th time I've seen someone post how they worked like $hit in a wreck but people always defend them.

Five whole times?!

Come on now luv, I appreciate your passion and agree with you that leather's the best protection money can buy, but five examples does not a scientific study make.

You can draw nothing conclusive from five posts on an internet discussion board, pro or con, on Phoenix gear.

Baketech · 07-31-2003, 7:18 PM

Stretcher....
Just curious, when your work situation calls for wearing a flak jacket...do you wear the one that provides the best protection or the one that's the coolest?

Tank69 · 07-31-2003, 7:25 PM

Quote:

luvtolean : No I'm not. *I'm advocating safety gear, and trying to convince people to ignore 'snake oil' safety gear.

If it's 'snake oil', why do they sell so many of them?

Technic, JR, Alpinestar, AGV and just about every gear manufacturer on the planet sells a textile/mesh jacket. They all must be crazy and getting their asses sued off since they are CLAIMING protection and in LTL and a few other 'anti-textile' squid cases state they suck.

This is just beyond belief you stating that if you could convince 10 people NOT to buy textile, you'd be making the riding community a better world. The majority of new riders can't afford a $400 - $600 leather jacket. Are you saying that wearing textile is worse than the tank top/t-shirt you see so many people wearing? Of course not. Leather is by far the best protection, however, textile is a SUMMER months rider's saviour.

I'm sure this thread will come up again as soon as someone else states and posts pictures about how their textile jacket 'blew apart', 'melted', 'failed', etc, etc. I'd like to know how many you have had success with their textile/mesh jacket in a crash?

luvtolean · 07-31-2003, 7:35 PM

I can honestly say I think a Levi's jean jacket will protect you better. *

Anybody got a Phoenix, crashed, torn or otherwise they want to give or sell cheaply to me? *

I have the stuff in my lab here at work to prove (or disprove) my point. I'll even put up a little Excel chart showing how many seconds at a given speed until your ass is on pavement.

It doesn't take $600 for a good leather jacket. *Not even close. *Here's one I found in a 30 second websearch for $190 to your door. *CE armor, 1.2-1.3mm leather, 10 year warranty, hell, it even looks pretty cool.

http://www.ridegear.com/cgi-bin....9706026

DavidGS · 07-31-2003, 7:40 PM

4 of my friends went down at different places at different times wearing the Phoenix jacket. All were doing over 90mph when they went down. All sustained no injuries. In all 4 cases, the jacket held up beautifully - no rips, no tear. I witnessed all of these wrecks with my own eyes. I trust my Phoenix jacket.

NinerPilot · 07-31-2003, 7:41 PM

I had a crashed one last year, but gave it to the local shop to show how well it protected in a getoff.... Surely someone else here has one that has been down....

FWIW, I had mine zipped to a pair of pants when I went down with no injury... Here is a Pic of mine after the incidentJacket
Chris

luvtolean · 07-31-2003, 7:44 PM

Ah forget it...

Chain · 07-31-2003, 8:21 PM

Quote:

luvtolean : No I'm not. *I'm advocating safety gear, and trying to convince people to ignore 'snake oil' safety gear.

A Bic lighter provides what? *Fire, which yields heat.

What does friction create 2 objects slide across each other? Heat.

Every person that mentions a JR Phoenix failure says it pretty much just melts as soon as it hits pavement.

Worsening the problem is the fact that this jacket has a higher coefficient of friction than leather. *This means as it slides, it will generate even more heat than leather, though it won't handle even a quarter of the temperature before it evaporates.

It would be fairly easy to estimate the temperature created by leather sliding across pavement, and show this melts a JR jacket extremely quickly.

I don't have a Phoenix but I swear to God, if I thought I could convince 10 riders to not buy this garbage I might actually spend my own time and money to show at how low a temp (Edit: and consequently how low a speed) this crap melts off.

<sigh>

LTL, you've proven nothing. In fact, I think you're persuading the pro-textile camp to become further entrenched in their position because you seem like you cannot be objective and admit that maybe just maybe, mesh protects some of the people some of the time.

You're trying to draw a relationship between how long a piece of textile would hold up if subjected to an open flame with how long said textile might sustain a satisfactory level of protection when sliding across any number of the wildly differing pavement surfaces across the country. It's a flawed notion.

Besides, it would seem the protective properties of mesh textiles are degraded not so much from heat, but from being abraded and eventually worn away by sliding across the pavement.

I've seen a number of photos from guys who've gone down while wearing mesh type jackets -a couple of men who've posted right here on the Org- and I've never seen a melted jacket. Abraded, worn through? Yes, but the holes aren't cauterized as you'd suggest. Sorry, the mesh jackets don't go 'poof' and disappear on contact.

Look, until one of the magazines get all the players together and conduct a series of controlled tests, you're not going to see the moto-world turn to cowhide. And you can't make an intellectually sound argument that your position is the Right One until someone does the darned test and proves your point.

Incidentally, I thought SPORT RIDER was going to do something in this vein by now ----> LINK

Chain · 07-31-2003, 8:22 PM

Funny, I don't smell anything burning here...

http://members.fireblades.org/ninerp...5-0574_IMG.JPG

luvtolean · 07-31-2003, 8:27 PM

Quote Look, until one of the magazines get all the players together and conduct a series of controlled tests, you're not going to see the moto-world turn to cowhide.

You're killing me here! Yeap, that stuff's so good it's illegal at every racetrack that requires any type of gear...

If you don't understand friction, and the heat it creates being the cause of the holes, I will quit wasting my keystrokes.

Baketech · 07-31-2003, 8:27 PM

Stretcher,
Before you step too far out onto the ledge and lose your grip, how about answering my question...

Mattress · 07-31-2003, 8:30 PM

Quote:

luvtolean : Ah forget it...

this reminds me of the squabbles my brother and I used to have, you know, the last word kind

Chain · 07-31-2003, 8:31 PM

Quote:

Baketech : Stretcher....
Just curious, when your work situation calls for wearing a flak jacket...do you wear the one that provides the best protection or the one that's the coolest?

This has little to do with the debate here, but the answer is that vest manufacturers work tirelessly to bring in the newest, lightest, coolest ballistic vests their R&D departments can come up with each year.

A huge, heavy, SWAT style ceramic vest that will stop centerfire rifle rounds does little to protect the wearer if the wearer leaves it in the locker back at the station. (Those can't be worn under a uniform anyway, so no, street cops don't wear the MOST protection they could in a perfect world.)

The concealable body armor we wear won't stop 15% of the weaponry I might run into on the street, but it's light and not terribly uncomfortable once you get conditioned to it. So it gets worn every day, even in beastly heat, and it will save me if I get the lead pill from 85% of the bad guy guns I'm likely to run across during the course of my duties.

Chain · 07-31-2003, 8:32 PM

Quote:

Baketech : Stretcher,
Before you step too far out onto the ledge and lose your grip, how about answering my question...

I was typing to you when you posted this, Mr. Smarty Pants.

Baketech · 07-31-2003, 8:33 PM

Thank you...

Chain · 07-31-2003, 8:36 PM

Quote:

luvtolean : *You're killing me here! *Yeap, that stuff's so good it's illegal at every racetrack that requires any type of gear...

If you don't understand friction, and the heat it creates being the cause of the holes, I will quit wasting my keystrokes.

Look at the photo above. Show me where the heat damage, melting, and cauterization is that you would lead us all to believe was the failure of this jacket.

With all due respect, I'll wait for SPORT RIDER or Motorcyclist or another of the fishwraps to conduct some tests before I take a hard stance one way or the other...

ConqSoft · 07-31-2003, 8:36 PM

Quote:

luvtolean : Quote Look, until one of the magazines get all the players together and conduct a series of controlled tests, you're not going to see the moto-world turn to cowhide.

*You're killing me here! *Yeap, that stuff's so good it's illegal at every racetrack that requires any type of gear...

If you don't understand friction, and the heat it creates being the cause of the holes, I will quit wasting my keystrokes.
..and smart people don't ride on the street like they would ride on a track... ...triple digit speeds 6' from other bikes...