[Chain]

NinerPilot : To break it down, The Pheonix can be compared to the Level II or IIA vest worn under the uniform all the time, for those 'just in case' senarios. The Level III is the 'leather' that I wear when I know the chances of injuryt are higher...
Just how I see it, Chris

I stand corrected that Baketech's question had little to do with this thread.

Nice analogy Niner.

[Baketech]

Both Niner and Stretcher make some good points about risk assessment.....a good basis to draw your own conclusions from there I guess....

[Chain]

luvtolean : Go do some reading about the failure of polymers, pay particular attention to the yield stress of a polymer as a function of temperature...read what happens when a material slides across a rough surface....you won't believe anything I say so I won't waste my time.

LTL, I feel like you're getting aggravated. So I want to clear something up before this debate goes any further.

I respect you and value your opinions and experience. I admire your passion and sticktoitiveness on this matter.

All I'm trying to suggest is this: for street riders, a mesh jacket oftentimes provides a nice layer of protection that might not otherwise be there.

I agree, leather is best for anti-abrasion properties.

So we're still friends, right?

[luvtolean]

Yes I am aggravated. I shouldn't let myself get so, but I am. Mainly cuz I pissed away too much time on the site today!

I am also slightly bent because you say you need to see this in Sport Rider to believe it.

I am a degreed mechanical engineer. For the last 3 years I have studied, in many ways, how polymers and other electronics related materials act and fail under loads...usually due to heat and stress; stress due to heat and various external stressors. I have patents pending directly related to my work in this area.

Let's just say, although you probably had no way of knowing it, I probably know more about the subject than an editor of Sport Rider.

[Chain]

luvtolean : Yes I am aggravated. *I shouldn't let myself get so, but I am. *Mainly cuz I pissed away too much time on the site today!

I am also slightly bent because you say you need to see this in Sport Rider to believe it. *

I am a degreed mechanical engineer. *For the last 3 years I have studied, in many ways, how polymers and other electronics related materials act and fail under loads...usually due to heat and stress; stress due to heat and various external stressors. *I have patents pending directly related to my work in this area.

Let's just say, although you probably had no way of knowing it, I probably know more about the subject than an editor of Sport Rider.

Bro, I wasn't aware of your curriculum vitae. I will stipulate then to the idea you've got some significant knowledge in this arena.

I was acutally thinking about replacing my all black JR with the silver/black model (less heat absorption I'd think), so maybe we'll talk about you doing some tests on the old one sometime soon.

Last question... wouldn't you agree that this is a reasonable statement?

'...for street riders, a mesh jacket oftentimes provides a nice layer of protection that might not otherwise be there.'

C'mon big guy, give a little here!

[2OHOH2]

Chain : Last question... wouldn't you agree that this is a reasonable statement?

'...for street riders, a mesh jacket oftentimes provides a nice layer of protection that might not otherwise be there.'

C'mon big guy, give a little here!

He did, earlier in the thread

[G-Force Junkie]

Wow, looks like I missed all the fun I'll just say this, having already stated my position: There seems to ba alot of factors on how someone crashes, A 100 foot slide on your back or chest is going to affect your gear all different than a tumbling crash. LTL's position is that no way in hell will a plastic mesh fabric hold up sliding along pavement, and I agree, the ones I have seen melted through and rashed the arms of the wearer. In a tumbling crash, there may not be any notacable different in protection between leather and mesh, as long as the padded areas remain in place, something I doubt seeing how floppy and movable the mesh is. i don't think anyone is saying its not worth wearing mesh gear, its better than a tshirt in every way. Its just wont perform as well, in as many situations as a leather jacket will. So untill you get to chose how you crash, I say, you'r going to end up better off wearing a leather jacket than a mesh one.

[Joel]

DavidGS : 4 of my friends went down at different places at different times wearing the Phoenix jacket. All were doing over 90mph when they went down. All sustained no injuries. In all 4 cases, the jacket held up beautifully - no rips, no tear. I witnessed all of these wrecks with my own eyes. I trust my Phoenix jacket.

David, sounds like you need to find some different friends to ride with.

Here's my opinion on this topic: Knowledge of how a particular crash will occur, and what the human body will go through in advance would allow the manufacturer to make gear that is comfortable and would protect the rider. However this knowledge is unavailable.

The manufacturers design and make the gear to 1) make a profit, 2) offer style, protection and comfort (in varying orders of priorities) to the consumer so that they can make a profit.

I think textile gear is better than a cotton t-shirt, but frankly, neither one of those options really work for me. I'll stick with leather, and high quality stuff.

[o'town929]

Well, I've only been riding daily for a month but I'll say this, I think any protection is better than none. I went with leather over textile for several reasons. 1.) the armor/padding moves around in the textile and not in the leather.(I think the textiles tend to fit taller/bigger individuals better) I'm only 5'6. Especially the padding around my elbows. 2.) As a new rider, I know I will have a get off sooner or later. *3.) I feel safer in the leather gear as opposed to the textile. And that's what matters most, it's why you see people riding in t-shirts(my brother) they feel safe with/in what they have on. *just my .02

[Mattress]

luvtolean : Quote Look, until one of the magazines get all the players together and conduct a series of controlled tests, you're not going to see the moto-world turn to cowhide.

*You're killing me here! *Yeap, that stuff's so good it's illegal at every racetrack that requires any type of gear...
I think that's because of the lack of a full circumference zipper, if it zipped together the whole way around, it might be up there with the roadcrafter as far as protection

[Johnny Diablo]

G-Force Junkie : Quote (2OHOH2954 @ July 30 2003, 9:39pm)The guy was under a vehicle, under an engine block, and suffered burns accordingly. How often does that happen with the rider surviving at all? Of course leather would've been better, but what about the many riders that wear that instead of nothing, or the ones that wear leather in dangerously hot conditions, whose reactions and judgement are impaired by the additional heat brought on by wearing 'safer' leather?



We know that you don't like mesh jackets GFJ, but nevertheless, for some people it's the only viable, somewhat safe option, besides not riding at all.

I, for one, haven't worn my Phoenix once this year, not surprisingly finding that the 8X more expensive Vanson CSRV is adequately ventilated and without a doubt better protection. Many don't have that option, for any of a number of possible reasons.

I dont follow that forum, just found a link to that post. *But he slide into the car on his belly, the rash is from nothing but the asphault, and in the guys own words, the jacket 'blew apart.' *I didn't think I had ever voiced an opinion on mesh jackets before Mayby I have, but I totaly agree, *its alot better than just a tshirt. *Its just after seeing these pics, and personaly seeing 2 Phoenix jackets destroyed after <45 MPH crashes, I hope people dont substitue them for proper gear. *And I gotta call * On the jacket thing, anyone on a $8-20k sportbike can affort a $300-500 jacket.
I think one of the times G-force has seen a mesh jacket put to the test is one of the times I was riding with him. Correct me if I am wrong g-buddy.....guy on a ninja500?...idlywilde and palmsprings run?

Personally I would trust a government issue Alpha industries flight jacket before I would trust Jor rocket mesh for protection. I know one is considerably hotter than the other but..... I dont think JR mesh is good unless you compare it to a t-shirt.

[DavidGS]

luvtolean : Yeap, that stuff's so good it's illegal at every racetrack that requires any type of gear...

It is legal at almost all of the tracks around here. I do not know of one track around here that it is not allowed.

[DavidGS]

Joel : David, sounds like you need to find some different friends to ride with.

I know a lot of stunters. Or at least, they think that they can stunt ...

[Chain]

Motorcycle Cruiser recently did a review of several of the mesh jackets we're talking about including the JR. I read the story in the print-copy version of the magazine when it came out two or three months ago; sadly, the review didn't put the jackets to the fall test, but rather concentrated on apparent build quality and air flow characteristics.

Even a nice shot of Jamie Elvidge's arse in tight blue jeans wasn't enough to save the day. Still though, at least it's information. Now if someone will slide test these suckers...

LINK

[Baketech]

Chain : Now if someone will slide test these suckers...

An objective test of specific gear....not going to happen...

If they printed the results, they would get too much heat from advertisers...

[Chain]

Baketech : Quote (Chain @ Aug. 03 2003, 7:46am)Now if someone will slide test these suckers...

An objective test of specific gear....not going to happen...

If they printed the results, they would get too much heat from advertisers... *
I agree with what you're saying for most of the mags, but I could see an outfit like MCN or Motorcycle Online doing it. No ads.

[Baketech]

Chain : Quote (Baketech @ Aug. 03 2003, 8:50am)Quote (Chain @ Aug. 03 2003, 7:46am)Now if someone will slide test these suckers...

An objective test of specific gear....not going to happen...

If they printed the results, they would get too much heat from advertisers... *
I agree with what you're saying for most of the mags, but I could see an outfit like MCN or Motorcycle Online doing it. No ads.
I thought we were talking about Sport Rider....

But anyway, back to your point....I still doubt you will see an objective abrasion test of 'branded' products, even in MCN. You might see a generic test that would compare materials - ala 'leather', 'cordura', 'mesh', 'tissue paper' etc...

Most of their articles tend to be 'feature comparisons' rather than 'function comparisons'. Just my 2 cents...

As far as their objectivity due to lack of ads goes...its a moot point, because they still face litigation from manufacturers if they print this type of info....even though they cannot lose the ad revenue.

[Chain]

Perhaps I'll write all the companies making mesh textile jackets and offer my services. I'm quite studied in this arena, doncha know. I'll take each jacket, lash them to a watermelon and let fly from the back of my Silverado at 75 miles per (Bigkid, Northy or 929Flyer, I'll need a local driver), then take photographs to document each jacket's performance.

I'm sure a controlled, clinical exercise such as this will be enough to satisfy Luvtolean once and for all.

[luvtolean]

Mattress : I think that's because of the lack of a full circumference zipper, if it zipped together the whole way around, it might be up there with the roadcrafter as far as protection *

No freakin way. The roadcrafter is ballistic nylon and Kevlar. It is actually pretty well made.

Chain, check out this month's Sport Rider. In one of the editor's columns he talks about safety gear and specifically mentions the mesh crap. He says he thinks there is no way it will protect well, but they are in the process of doing a test.

I thought it was pretty cool they were doing it until I thumbed through the mag and saw JR's marketing lies in a full page color add for their mesh $hit. I'm dubious about the test now...

[BDA116]

I was gonna stay out of this completely, and probably still should. BUT, I am one of those that would rather see someone wear a mesh jacket than no protection at all. Being a racer, I have a bit of a leather collection, and would never think about wearing mesh on a track. I have leather suits that are rashed from pavement excursions and I have never to this point received one bit of roadrash while wearing leather. However, after riding on the street again in our summer weather (which isn't as bad a Phoenix but sucks bad enough) I started researching alternatives. Looking into the JR stuff made me decide it was definitely not the way to go, but after researching Fieldsheer's mesh technology and their jackets I knew I had a winner. The Mach2 jacket has leather everywhere it is needed - at least half the jacket is perfed leather, and has hard CE armor in the requisite spots, including a hard spine protector. It also has 'soft armor' padding on the collar bone and other spots. Their mesh almost matches Aerostich's Cordura suits. The abrasion rating is as good, but the tear is slightly lower.
I just grabbed my jacket and the tag in it states that it is 65% leather.
Anyway, I agree with the folks that don't like the protection that the Phoenix jacket offers. There is a good hot weather alternative, though, and it doesn't cost much more.

[Baketech]

This theory of mesh as 'better than nothing' is odd to me...
If a guy showed up wearing a brain bucket half-helmet....and used that line...he would be laughed out of the paddock....

FWIW, I used to be be in the 'better than nothing' camp myself, but my eyes were opened wide when I saw just how white an abraded elbow bone is....and hearing my 'tough as nails' riding partner sob like a little girl made my opinions change....

Mesh makes a fine inner-liner for a set of leathers...but lame for road protection....

[DavidGS]

A group of guys that I ride with went to the mtns this morning. I couldn't go as I am building a new garage at my house specifically to house the 929 . 3 of them went down today. 2 were wearing leathers and were fine. One was moving at about 40mph, the other around 60mph. The third was wearing Draggin Jeans and a JR Phoenix. He was doing about 60mph and is fine also. What more protection can you ask for? Everyone is fine - the equipment held up.

[Bacchus]

Let's face it gang, this argument could go on forever. I'm sure that mesh gear serves its purpose quite well under
certain circumstances, and is certainly better than a
t-shirt and jeans. There are just too many variables. Bottom line, mesh isn't going to come even close to the protection afforded by leather. Just my honest (and obviously correct) opinion .

[G-Force Junkie]

Tombstone : Quote (G-Force Junkie @ July 31 2003, 1:15am)Quote (2OHOH2954 @ July 30 2003, 9:39pm)The guy was under a vehicle, under an engine block, and suffered burns accordingly. How often does that happen with the rider surviving at all? Of course leather would've been better, but what about the many riders that wear that instead of nothing, or the ones that wear leather in dangerously hot conditions, whose reactions and judgement are impaired by the additional heat brought on by wearing 'safer' leather?



We know that you don't like mesh jackets GFJ, but nevertheless, for some people it's the only viable, somewhat safe option, besides not riding at all.

I, for one, haven't worn my Phoenix once this year, not surprisingly finding that the 8X more expensive Vanson CSRV is adequately ventilated and without a doubt better protection. Many don't have that option, for any of a number of possible reasons.

I dont follow that forum, just found a link to that post. *But he slide into the car on his belly, the rash is from nothing but the asphault, and in the guys own words, the jacket 'blew apart.' *I didn't think I had ever voiced an opinion on mesh jackets before Mayby I have, but I totaly agree, *its alot better than just a tshirt. *Its just after seeing these pics, and personaly seeing 2 Phoenix jackets destroyed after <45 MPH crashes, I hope people dont substitue them for proper gear. *And I gotta call * On the jacket thing, anyone on a $8-20k sportbike can affort a $300-500 jacket.
I think one of the times G-force has seen a mesh jacket put to the test is one of the times I was riding with him. *Correct me if I am wrong g-buddy.....guy on a ninja500?...idlywilde and palmsprings run?

Personally I would trust a government issue Alpha industries flight jacket before I would trust Jor rocket mesh for protection. * *I know one is considerably hotter than the other but..... I dont think JR mesh is good unless you compare it to a t-shirt.
Ya, that was one of them. I think it was a 250 though. Also, wasnt the asian dud that went down twice that day onthe F3 (maybe F2) have a Phoenix jacket? I think he came out pretty unscathed. The other I saw was at the Rock store, the guy had just gone down Decker, his entire shoulder to elbow were rashed where the jacket melted all the way through.