[Hammer]

My head is worth more that $80.

I'll stick to my SHOEI.

[tikki50]

Interesting article and so far its been a clean topic!
I did some research before I bought my Suomy to find the differences between the BSI standards and Snell. I found that:

A. Snell takes helmets off the shelf for their testing. That means that those helmets are already being purchased by consumers. Im sure some helmets make it to their location before it actually hits the market but you can't bet on it. Other standards batch test. This means that they take X amount of helmets before they are sold for testing if one fails the entire batch is tossed. OUCH!

B. Snell uses the mutiple impact test where other standards use a single impact test. This means that Snell helmets must endure a second hit to the helmet before failing. The end result is slightly different polymers/padding which relate more G's to your head on the first impact. Also, BSI uses a higher first test impact with no second test.This doesn't mean that other standards don't hold up, their just not tested that way.

C. Overall G's to your head connot exceed 300G. Todays helmets are bit a bit different than years ago, like stated earlier. Your head can survive a 200G impact with little no brain damage. My father does air bag testing on vehicles and I discussed this with him. Apprently when your in an accident say 70 MPH your head can easily exceed 300G, and your face enters the air bag and it reduces the G's to head. The end result they shoot for is 200G or under. He also said todays airbags are much better and go way under this standard. So your padding is your airbag. The shell is for piercing/cracking. The quality of the padding should have a direct relation to the g's passed through. I would like to see a comparision of the padding materials used for each helmet and the related g's.

To sum it up each standard has something positive about them and for this matter negative. I personally choose suomy on comfort, quality, fit, looks. They don't have the mutiple impact test but, my comfort level is a 10 when wearing it and that is almost more important to me. I feel that the UK has much more stringet rules regarding motorcycle safety than the US so I believe that the BSI/EC standards are fine. Until the entire world chooses a standard we will always have this debate.

I will try and dig up the links to the articles.

[tikki50]

Originally Posted by Scratch

.
Which brings me to the question, when ordering the Suomy, are all the ones in the US BSI/DOT or are they all or mostly just DOT? It would seem that the BSI is the one to get?

They should be BSI/ECE as far as Im aware of. Mine is BSI. It's a European helmet, so that BSI sticker is the equivilent (sp) of Snell.

[Northy]

Originally Posted by abtech

Interesting they don't mention the current standard for Snell which is M-2005. In fact many M-2000 helmets will no longer be acceptable for use in competition beginning this year.

I'm just reading what I read in the article. I'm with Chain in that I don't have a wealth of knowledge on the topic.

They used the term Snell M2000/2005 standard most of the time in the article and stated, "The Snell standard did not change substantially from M2000 to M2005."

They did state that the $60 dollar Pep Boy special didn't have a good neck strap even though it did well in the G test.

One other comment they made about DOT is that they don't do their own or require the helmet companies to do impartial testing. DOT relies on companies certfying their own helmets.

Abtech, I wasn't trying to take shots at any racing orgs. Just looking for thoughts and options. Thanks for yours.

[Northy]

Originally Posted by SpikedLemon

Obviously the racing organizations feel there's a serious need for SNELL...

But I agree w/ it being a one-dimensional test; I'd like to see the results from all those helmets for a FULL test.

Not really for SNELL but for a test rating. Notice each one will also accept BSI and/or ECE ratings.

[abtech]

Originally Posted by tikki50

Interesting article and so far its been a clean topic!
I did some research before I bought my Suomy to find the differences between the BSI standards and Snell. I found that:

A. Snell takes helmets off the shelf for their testing. That means that those helmets are already being purchased by consumers. Im sure some helmets make it to their location before it actually hits the market but you can't bet on it. Other standards batch test. This means that they take X amount of helmets before they are sold for testing if one fails the entire batch is tossed. OUCH!

That is only after they have fully tested and certified a particular model with several samples (batch) produced by the manufacturer. They do the random sample testing only after they have certified a particular helmet. They have certified a model of helmet in the past only to pull the certs when they found some random samples that wouldn't pass the original test. Read the info on their site, it's pretty thorough and certainly precludes any "ringers" from sneaking through testing.

Snipped from the Snell site:

Technicians at two state-of-the-art laboratories, located in the United States and the United Kingdom, test helmets on two levels. First, helmet samples from manufacturers are tested to see if they meet Snell certification testing requirements. Then, once a helmet passes and receives the Snell certification sticker, it is subjected to random sample testing. These dual-testing procedures are designed to see that the product a consumer buys off the shelf is as protective as the one submitted for initial testing.

[abtech]

Originally Posted by Northy

I'm just reading what I read in the article. I'm with Chain in that I don't have a wealth of knowledge on the topic.

They used the term Snell M2000/2005 standard most of the time in the article and stated, "The Snell standard did not change substantially from M2000 to M2005."

They did state that the $60 dollar Pep Boy special didn't have a good neck strap even though it did well in the G test.

One other comment they made about DOT is that they don't do their own or require the helmet companies to do impartial testing. DOT relies on companies certfying their own helmets.

Abtech, I wasn't trying to take shots at any racing orgs. Just looking for thoughts and options. Thanks for yours.

As a former "official" and founding member of GLRRA, I have had to visit this subject in depth several times in the past. As organizer of the Fireblades.org Days@Grattan, I have had to take a stance on this exact issue and declare any non-Snell helmet as unacceptable. I don't take this subject lightly and was lucky enough to walk through the entire testing and certification process at SNELL labs in California several years ago. Based on this and more than a few years in the "biz", I have formed what I feel is a substantiated opinion regarding the subject of helmet safety and the various certification organizations.

[luvtolean]

If an $80 (Chinese made surely) Pepboy special does well in your test, you need to look at your measured parameters and weighting again. As I guarantee they are bullshit.

My favorite mag test of helmets was done by Roadracing World a few years back.

It was simple. They polled club racers on crashes/vs concussions after helmet impact by brand and tabulated the results.

Clearly, Arai, Shoei and AGV were very much superior. Well beyond statistical uncertainties.

[CBRVFR]

Originally Posted by tikki50

B. Snell uses the mutiple impact test where other standards use a single impact test. This means that Snell helmets must endure a second hit to the helmet before failing. The end result is slightly different polymers/padding which relate more G's to your head on the first impact. Also, BSI uses a higher first test impact with no second test.This doesn't mean that other standards don't hold up, their just not tested that way.

This factor is significant - I had a pretty serious impact wearing a SHOEI and there were multiple hits on the helmet. My glasses didn't even get dislodged.

My first thought as I hit the ground was " This is a pretty good helmet." The second impact I remember thinking "Still here!" I have confidence in that brand.

[Hamburgler]

CBRVFR's post made me remember the last time I crashed.

It was at TWS and after the first impact (My head hitting the pavement) I remember sliding on my back and noticing that there were only a couple clouds in the sky. Just basically going for the ride not trying to sit up.

The 2nd impact (my head hitting the wall) hurt like a summabitch, but no concussion.

I had a 1 impact accident wearing a fulmer helmet and did suffer a concussion.

Anyways, point of the post is that I feel the snell rated helmet did a much better job of protecting me. Sure there are more variables than that, but I would bet that that was a major factor.

The only reason I was going to try scorpion as my next helmet is I am having to tighten my budget right now (damn bike payment) and cant afford shoei. (I wear a size medium in case anyone has one lying around...)

[Northy]

Originally Posted by abtech

As organizer of the Fireblades.org Days@Grattan, I have had to take a stance on this exact issue and declare any non-Snell helmet as unacceptable...

Would you accept a BSI or ECE approved helmet?

[abtech]

Originally Posted by Northy

Would you accept a BSI or ECE approved helmet?

No. Not unless it is the standard in the country you hail from or it is also Snell M-2000 certified. At this point, all of the attendees are from North America, so we will stick to the accepted standard for track helmet certification for this area.

[CBRVFR]

Originally Posted by abtech

No. Not unless it is the standard in the country you hail from or it is also Snell M-2000 certified. At this point, all of the attendees are from North America, so we will stick to the accepted standard for track helmet certification for this area.

Wouldn't that eliminate Suomy helmets?

[abtech]

Originally Posted by CBRVFR

Wouldn't that eliminate Suomy helmets?

If it doesn't have a Snell M-2000 (or even an M-1995) sticker, then I guess it would. I should point out that the BSI standard allows velcro to be used as the restraint (strap locking mechanism). They also allow several internal impingements (screws, vent mounts etc.). These are not even considered for certification by Snell and the velcro closure system is not allowed by any US based racing organization that I know of.

You have to wonder why a manufacturer as prominent as Suomy wouldn't submit their product for certification by the primary standards organization in what is probably their largest target market. If they did submit them, you then have to wonder why they haven't received Snell certification. Shark found out that they were unable to make any headway in the US market until they added a ring type closure system and subsequently gained Snell certification. They make an excellent helmet and were innovators in velcro restraint development, but until they made a "conforming" helmet they were unable to use them in US based competition.

[phobiaphobe]

I don't think I really have to even say this, but, I think the fit of a helmet counts more than its "rating".

Take the best helmet of any test and wear it 2 sizes too big and you'll havee poor protection.

Sorry to point out the obvious but I found this out the hard way. I bought my RF900 3 years ago in size XL. Being a member of the Huge Friggin Head Brotherhood (it's like sputnik) I found XL to be the most comfy and naively purchased it.

In my last crash, the back of my head hit the pavement pretty hard and I suffered a pretty nasty concussion. I'm quite certain that if my lid had been the proper size my brain wouldn't have taken nearly the blow that it did.

[luvtolean]

Yeah, that's a good point. When you buy a helmet you want it to be snug, and it will break in to your head a bit.

When I bought an Arai, I started at size large, I don't have a small head, and think I ended up with a small. It had to stretch out a bit, but now it feels like part of my head.

[Daffy_Duck]

Originally Posted by Hammer

My head is worth more that $80.

I'll stick to my SHOEI.

+1...

[Purpdust]

I made that very mistake as well, lucky my first helmet was and HJC and I got a large - after a couple of month my head felt like it was in a bell (NOt the Brand) NO now I have medium RX7RR and a X-11.

[abtech]

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

I don't think I really have to even say this, but, I think the fit of a helmet counts more than its "rating".

Take the best helmet of any test and wear it 2 sizes too big and you'll havee poor protection.

Sorry to point out the obvious but I found this out the hard way. I bought my RF900 3 years ago in size XL. Being a member of the Huge Friggin Head Brotherhood (it's like sputnik) I found XL to be the most comfy and naively purchased it.

In my last crash, the back of my head hit the pavement pretty hard and I suffered a pretty nasty concussion. I'm quite certain that if my lid had been the proper size my brain wouldn't have taken nearly the blow that it did.

The only death in the GLRRA series was caused by the rider borrowing a too large helmet when he destroyed his own helmet (in practice on the same day). He lowsided in the bowl at Grattan and his helmet flew off as he hit the ground and was struck in the head by the rider behind him.

[CBRVFR]

Originally Posted by abtech

If it doesn't have a Snell M-2000 (or even an M-1995) sticker, then I guess it would. I should point out that the BSI standard allows velcro to be used as the restraint (strap locking mechanism). They also allow several internal impingements (screws, vent mounts etc.). These are not even considered for certification by Snell and the velcro closure system is not allowed by any US based racing organization that I know of.

You have to wonder why a manufacturer as prominent as Suomy wouldn't submit their product for certification by the primary standards organization in what is probably their largest target market. If they did submit them, you then have to wonder why they haven't received Snell certification. Shark found out that they were unable to make any headway in the US market until they added a ring type closure system and subsequently gained Snell certification. They make an excellent helmet and were innovators in velcro restraint development, but until they made a "conforming" helmet they were unable to use them in US based competition.

Suomy U.S.A. elected to bring in its helmets under both the D.O.T. and
the B.S.I. 6658 Type A Certifications suomy-usa.com

I guess their DOT cert is enough, I know I've seen a bunch of them in AMA and CCS races. I think Heavy Dee wore his in an endurance race at Grattan last year, but I don't remember who sanctioned it..

I don't have one, but I know several .orgers do. Just want to clarify for their benefit.

[abtech]

Originally Posted by CBRVFR

I guess their DOT cert is enough, I know I've seen a bunch of them in AMA and CCS races. I think Heavy Dee wore his in an endurance race at Grattan last year, but I don't remember who sanctioned it..

I don't have one, but I know several .orgers do. Just want to clarify for their benefit.

That would be a Fastrax date and they didn't even check helmets at any of the races I ran.

Regarding "Suomy U.S.A. elected to bring in its helmets under both the D.O.T. and
the B.S.I. 6658 Type A Certifications suomy-usa.com ", I certainly don't know, but it could be that they didn't pass the Snell certifications and that may explain why they "elected" not to use Snell. This is the case for at least 300 new helmet models every year.

[EDDIE110171]

Or