[Bacchus]

What are your thoughts, given the high number of deaths that occur regularly in this race? Here is one statistic I found, and it doesn't even cover the past 6 years:

<1997 - On Monday, 26th May 31-year-old Colin Gable became the 169th rider to be killed in the 90-year history of the TT (Tourist Trophy).>

A pretty sobering figure...

[deez]

The riders know what they are getting into before they even get to the island. Man up or go race someplace else. This place is the oldest motorcycle race in the world.

[jdev]

Wut boof said,you know the risk before you start.
I hope they don'y change it,that's one of fav's to watch and drink brew.

[Chain]

Good poll Bacchus, because it provokes critical thinking.

I agree with Booth.

[Baketech]

#1 - Leave it alone....

#2 - But, I would agree with limits in place of a ban...

[tigerblade]

booth23 : The riders know what they are getting into before they even get to the island. *Man up or go race someplace else. *This place is the oldest motorcycle race in the world.

I agree.

From Jefferies himself:

In his blunt Yorkshire way, Jefferies had explained how he prepared himself mentally for those amazing feats. 'To succeed on the island, you have to be totally at ease with yourself, know exactly what you're doing, and accept that you might be going home in a box.'

[Bigtoe]

I enjoy watching the race. Those guys have big balls.

[lfg929]

I voted to leave it the way it is. It is a dangerous race, but that is part of the excitement around it. Knowing the dangers, I would still like to run it at least once. Granted, I don't know if I could even qualify because I would likely be going way to slow through town, but hey, I would still try.

It is what it is, and if you can't stomach the possible outcome, then you shouldn't be entering it. That I know of it is a one off event and doesn't pay any points towards any other racing organizations so there is no real reason to run it other than 'you want to'.

[WildBillF1]

booth23 : The riders know what they are getting into before they even get to the island. *Man up or go race someplace else. *This place is the oldest motorcycle race in the world.

[ratter]

The facts are scary, but nobody is forced to do it, in some aspects it is probably safer than your favorite road that you hoon on

[thebackdraft]

Sac up or go home. Nobody has to race, those that do want to can. I do think a racer can earn money from it but that still doesn't mean you have to take part. It is very cool to watch though.

[Pete]

I am definitely of the opinion that it should not be banned because of the dangers. As previoulsy implied, the racers make a choice knowing full well the assumed risks.

I see that there is one vote to ban it. I'd like to here that person's point of view. Also, what type of restrictions does anyone suggest to make it safer for the riders and/or spectators.

[dB]

Just a heads up that there's more coverage on Speed tonight...the Prod 1000 and Junior 600 classes...9pm Eastern.

[lfg929]

thebackdraft : Sac up or go home. *Nobody has to race, those that do want to can. *I do think a racer can earn money from it but that still doesn't mean you have to take part. *It is very cool to watch though.

Heh, according to an article I read in one of the rags a few months ago they actually pay you to race there depending on where you are from. The guy entered it to see if Joe Blow off the street from the US could enter, and possibly qualify, to race the IOM. He did enter, and I believe he even qualified (can't remember the whole article at the moment). But he did mention that because he came from the US that they paid him something like $2800 for qualifying. I am sure his expenses were well above that (flying there, staying at a hotel or renting a room, renting a bike, etc), but it is still cool that you get that much cash just by qualifying (if you don't qualify then you don't get squat).

[ND4SPD]

lfg929 : I voted to leave it the way it is. It is a dangerous race, but that is part of the excitement around it. Knowing the dangers, I would still like to run it at least once. Granted, I don't know if I could even qualify because I would likely be going way to slow through town, but hey, I would still try.

It is what it is, and if you can't stomach the possible outcome, then you shouldn't be entering it. That I know of it is a one off event and doesn't pay any points towards any other racing organizations so there is no real reason to run it other than 'you want to'.

[Baketech]

While I understand the sentiment of the 'leave it alone' camp....there is one thing to keep in mind....bikes continue to improve and get faster....but the Island stays fundamentally the same.....

In the rest of the racing world, new tracks are built, and old ones modified to accomodate the continued developement of MC's. The Isle doesn't have those options....unlike tracks, the only significant variable here is the rulebook.....

At some point in time (and I am not suggesting that it its today) bikes will outgrow the IoM and they will be faced with either a ban or restrictions.....in which case I would favor restrictions....ie cc limits

Flame Away

[OSIRIS]

dB : Just a heads up that there's more coverage on Speed tonight...the Prod 1000 and Junior 600 classes...9pm Eastern.

Thanks for the heads up dB.

Does anyone know of a place where you can get copies of older races on VHS or DVD?

[Pete]

Osiris, I don't have time to check, so you might want to try this place... http://www.duke-usa.com/

booth23 : The riders know what they are getting into before they even get to the island. *Man up or go race someplace else.

I must say that I ag...agr......agr......feel the same as Booth

[ondablade]

Don't read this if you're into three word posts, and scuse the length again.
This is something I've thought about quite a lot as an Irish guy going to local road races of character very similar to the TT. It's not by accident that many of the top TT riders are and have been Irish. I've some fairly definite views.
First off there's absolutely no form of racing which has anything like the spectator appeal or the sense of occasion of road racing. This is why it's still drawing people after all these years.
The sport is the current realisation of a great tradition which goes back to the 1920s and before. I spent my childhood weekends watching friends of my Father racing on the roads - hence my disease.
That said I don't feel it's in the end defensible as it stands - the risk is just too high and change is needed to reduce this. I personally feel guilty every time I spectate becuse I'm encouraging people to risk their lives.
My logic runs along the following lines:
(1) Most active racers are only very poor judges of risk - they by definition (as many of us know from experience) put it to the back of their minds as they otherwise could not function. They intellectually accept there is a risk, but deep down decide it's not likely to be me and choose to forget about it. All the logical thought in the world fades anyway in the moments in which you use instinct to sqeeze that last available seconds out of the bike...
(2) Success is worth a lot of money and especially in Northern Ireland the social recognition of a major sports star - no small thing for the usually very ordinary guys who go racing.
(3) The buzz for the riders is incomparable.
(4) Most riders are relatively young, the immortality factor is still around in at least some cases.
(5) The larger events are worth enormous amounts of money to the local tourist trade, the governing bodies, the promoters, the organisers and the press which as a result hype the events and lean on their local politicians to damp down any protest at the steady stream of deaths.
It's no use in these circumstances to expect the riders to make a rational call - they anyway do not have the means at their disposal to alter the situation.
I think it has to be said that change is primarily the responsibility of the organisers, the sporting bodies, the promoters, the organisers and the press.
The trouble is they always trot out the hackneyed old lines in the face of death - 'he was doing what he wanted', 'he'd have wanted us to continue', 'nobody forces the riders to race anyway', 'his family wanted us to continue'.
Anybody criticising the sport is rounded on by the zealots who talk of the 'great tradition' and so on. When changes are proposed even the riders usually firmly oppose it. Every has their alibi, and nobody in the end accepts moral responsibility.
The result is that a sort of paralysis sets in. Those in charge or with vested interests who truly are in a position to deliver change throw responsibility back at the riders. Anybody who tries to deliver change is rounded upon by all sorts of interests. The riders can't act and if they do are usually driven by narrow considerations to do with protecting their investment and their competitiveness.
The end result is that almost nobody acts decisively to reduce risk - limited responses follow usually only when the pressure of public opinion is on following deaths. No major restructuring of the sport is ever undertaken and the show goes on.
The example I use is the Roman Circus. Most of us can agree it was immoral, but you can be fairly sure the crowds wanted it, the vested interets wanted it and even many of the galdiators wanted it for the opportunity for advancement it provided.
I'm not in favour of banning road racing, nor am I in favour of the total elimination of risk as I think that learning to face risk is something we all need to learn for the good of society. I'd just like to see some action by the powers that be to reduce the risk to acceptable levels.
I simply don't in the end understand the fear of and the resistance to change. The fact of the matter is that the sport has changed beyond all recognition in my lifetime anyway.....

[Pete]

Ondablade, what a complete load of bull$hit! LOL, just kidding. Great post. Thanks, that puts a lot into the proper persepctive for me.

[Bacchus]

Dayum ondablade, you put some serious thought into that one! Good post. Although I didn't vote in my own poll, I guess deep down I think the race should go on as it always has. Hell, there is risk in any sport. As far as the second poll option, I put a ? after restrictions because I was wondering what, if any, ideas some of you might have. Seems like other than limiting engine displacement, what else could they do? Sure can't line THAT course with an air fence.

Quote I'd just like to see some action by the powers that be to reduce the risk to acceptable levels.

I'm curious as to what you view as 'Acceptable levels' ?

[ondablade]

I don't necessarily have the answer myself, but am inclined to think that pure road racing cannot be made acceptably safe - at least not if it's run over the current very long circuits.
It looks like Jeffries came off on oil put down by a blown motor a few minutes earlier - he hit the corner of a wall at the entry to a small street in the village of Crosby at 160mph. On a course with the lap lenth of the TT you can't possibly hope to marshall it closely enough to cover risks of this sort.
Nor can you hope to modify it enough to make it remotely safe while it runs through villages. A move to a shorter lap in the countryside might offer some potential.
There have been moves to end the use of some of the unalterable and more dangerous tracks in Northern Ireland, and to provide run off by use of removable fencing and so on in danger areas. These steps may help somewhat, but can only be mostly palliative in the end.
I find it difficult to see anything other than a transition to closed purpose built circuits as reducing the risk sufficiently.
Speed reduction probably won't do it. Death rates have not changed very much over many many years - 125s are today as fast as the 500s were in the 60s, yet the death rate then (and indeed from much earlier) was much the same.
It's so sad to look at for example some of the books published in the wake of Joey Dunlop's death. I can look at photos from the first turn at road races all over Ireland from the early 90s forward and almost without exception can count off of the order of 50% as dead. And it's not the Joe's down the field who usually get it, it's the top five men who are pushing hard. Many if not most of today's top line Irish road racers were top ten guys who got there not by beating the other guys but by taking their places following their deaths....

ondablade : I don't necessarily have the answer myself, but am inclined to think that pure road racing cannot be made acceptably safe - at least not if it's run over the current very long circuits.
It looks like Jeffries came off on oil put down by a blown motor *a few minutes earlier - he hit the corner of a wall at the entry to a small street in the village of Crosby at 160mph. On a course with the lap lenth of the TT you can't possibly hope to marshall it closely enough to cover risks of this sort.
Nor can you hope to modify it enough to make it remotely safe while it runs through villages. A move to a shorter lap in the countryside might offer some potential.
There have been moves to end the use of some of the unalterable and more dangerous tracks in Northern Ireland, and to provide run off by use of removable fencing and so on in danger areas. These steps may help somewhat, but can only be mostly palliative in the end.
I find it difficult to see anything other than a transition to closed purpose built circuits as reducing the risk sufficiently.
Speed reduction probably won't do it. Death rates have not changed very much over many many years - 125s are today as fast as the 500s were in the 60s, yet the death rate then (and indeed from much earlier) was much the same.
It's so sad to look at for example some of the books published in the wake of Joey Dunlop's death. I can look at photos from the first turn at road races all over Ireland from the early 90s forward and almost without exception can count off of the order of 50% as dead. And it's not the Joe's down the field who usually get it, it's the top five men who are pushing hard. Many if not most of today's top line Irish road racers were top ten guys who got there not by beating the other guys but by taking their places following their deaths....

Thank you very much. I'd like to read more about the early years or this kind of racing (particularly the TT), please, have you any links?

[dB]

Nice posts, ondablade. Lots to think about there.

I voted to keep the TT as is, but I'm open to arguments that it's gotten to be too unsafe.

I was just about to ask about death rates over the years when you made your second post. So how has the event changed in your lifetime? I assumed that comment was regarding safety, but the statistics don't seem to prove that. Not being contrary here, just picking your brain as I think about this stuff.

Your first post does a good job of explaining your view of our responsibility as fans for the safety of racers. But realistically, at what point can the level of risk be called 'acceptable' in any form of motor racing? Isn't one death or severe injury too much if we are responsible as fans seeking only entertainment?

Would racers still race if we didn't pay to watch them? Maybe it's not our place to question their motives? Sit down for this one...not sure I even want to type it but, maybe an earthly death isn't an absolute evil? For instance, whereas I'll most likely die in obscurity nearly half a world away, I have great respect for who Joey Dunlop was and what he did.

Again, just thinkin' out loud here.

(edited out some typos)