World Superbike just signed it's Death Warrant

deez · 07-31-2003, 10:13 AM

abtech · 07-31-2003, 10:51 AM

This same agreement was the single largest reason for the demise of GLRRA last year. When Steve Brubaker (Race Tire Service, the Dunlop guy) was encouraged not to show up at MGP events, the series became a total joke (along with several other reasons).

Having a spec tire series is so wrong, it's unbelievable. Perhaps one class (ala the old Canadian RZ Cup, or the Suzuki Cup etc.) makes sense and offers the opportunity for some close racing. When a particular tire company's sponsored riders are the only one's getting the decent rubber, while everyone else pays big bucks for the leftovers just to compete in all of the featured races, I (and several other riders) sarted looking elsewhere.

lfg929 · 07-31-2003, 11:53 AM

Currently even Ducati says they will not run WSB next year if the proposed changes go through (there is more to it than just the tire changes).

I agree it is a stupid thing to do. I don't understand why you would want to limit the tire choices to a single manufacturer in a supposedly world based race.

Motopilot · 07-31-2003, 11:56 AM

I would have to agree. Eliminating tire selection takes an element out of a teams strategy for winning.

ccwilli3 · 07-31-2003, 11:59 AM

I mean,

This makes a little bit of sense for like CCS or something where the average joe is fighting for a chance and good tires ARE the difference...

But this is ducati, suzuki, (maybe honda/yamaha/kwak too) and these guys are looking for every edge they can get, and that often is tire brands...

luvtolean · 07-31-2003, 12:04 PM

Quote:

ccwilli3 : This makes a little bit of sense for like CCS or something where the average joe is fighting for a chance and good tires ARE the difference...

Don't kid yourself, the fast guys are getting different rubber everyone else can't have no matter what. I've seen this plenty in club racing as well as in AMA stuff.

Pete · 07-31-2003, 12:07 PM

Could this (idiotic) decision have been driven by the fact that maybe the other tire manufacturers, seeing an eventual demise to WSB, were talking of pulling out, and Pirelli seized the opportunity?

tigerblade · 07-31-2003, 12:17 PM

It's all lunacy. You can't fault Pirelli but the whole thing just doesn't make sense.

deez · 07-31-2003, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Pete : Could this (idiotic) decision have been driven by the fact that maybe the other tire manufacturers, seeing an eventual demise to WSB, were talking of pulling out, and Pirelli seized the opportunity?

A lot more to it then that. The Bros that run WSBK have been trying all kinds of foolishness with the tire mfr's, it's on soup or RRW, I forget, read all about it yesterday. They started their demise when they were being real wishy washy with the rules for displacement and restrictors. They have themselves time and time again. With Hodgson going to GP next year, this series is completely done. Hell I haven't watched one race this year.

BizJetGuy · 07-31-2003, 12:57 PM

Quote:

booth23 : Hell I haven't watched one race this year.

Me neither... last season was incredible, but I have lost virtually all interest in World Superbike this season.

ccwilli3 · 07-31-2003, 1:39 PM

Quote:

luvtolean : Quote (ccwilli3 @ July 31 2003, 11:59am)This makes a little bit of sense for like CCS or something where the average joe is fighting for a chance and good tires ARE the difference...

Don't kid yourself, the fast guys are getting different rubber everyone else can't have no matter what. *I've seen this plenty in club racing as well as in AMA stuff.
Thats exactly my point... *The good guys get the good rubber and will never be caught... *This is everywhere, my point being its good for people on a shoestring budget, but it'll only stagnate the talent level because the peeps with money will go elsewhere!

First thing that comes to my mind is the Corse - Michelin relationship. *They've ALWAYS had the michelin partnership, they won't run if they have to run pirellis, so how is that good for the series?

Good for the guy on the privateer 998RS maybe, but not for corser/foggy and the corona suzuki team... *They just got screwed!

luvtolean · 07-31-2003, 1:43 PM

I don't get how the guys on a shoestring budget are going to benefit?

The tires aren't cheaper in a spec tire series.(In fact without competition, sometimes it gets more expensive) The more well funded teams are going to have fresher tires, and if the well funded teams are fast, they're going to get different Pirellis than the ones the guys on the shoestring budget are going to get.

HondaGalToo · 07-31-2003, 1:48 PM

It seems, from the AMA races I've watched, that most seem to run Dunlop. Was there a similar sort of agreement, that Dunlops had to be used? Just curious, as it seems that Dunlops were used by most and I'd always wondered if there was a choice, or if they had to use Dunlops.

luvtolean · 07-31-2003, 1:50 PM

It's their choice. Dunlop supports US club level and AMA racing very well.

HondaGalToo · 07-31-2003, 1:53 PM

Ok, gotcha, thanks. So most used Dunlop because it was their tire of choice. They could've used others if they so chose? I always wondered, but never asked, why Dunlop was used most often.

ccwilli3 · 07-31-2003, 2:10 PM

Quote:

luvtolean : I don't get how the guys on a shoestring budget are going to benefit? *

Because everyone in the series pays the same amount and gets the same tires... No better, no worse.

tigerblade · 07-31-2003, 2:13 PM

Quote:

HondaGalToo : Ok, gotcha, thanks. *So most used Dunlop because it was their tire of choice. *They could've used others if they so chose? *I always wondered, but never asked, why Dunlop was used most often.

There are a few teams running Michelins and Pirellis in AMA.

ccwilli3 · 07-31-2003, 2:16 PM

dunlop also knows a lot about these tracks and know which compounds and carcasses work very well there. the michelin and pirelli guys just have little to no time there and make guesses on tires whereas dunlop can look at what they have done over the past few years and go from there...

TB, tenacious D baby, all the way!

luvtolean · 07-31-2003, 4:07 PM

Quote:

ccwilli3 : Quote (luvtolean @ July 31 2003, 1:43pm)I don't get how the guys on a shoestring budget are going to benefit? *

Because everyone in the series pays the same amount and gets the same tires... *No better, no worse.
That's not how it ends up though...

tigerblade · 07-31-2003, 4:43 PM

Quote:

ccwilli3 : TB, tenacious D baby, all the way! *

http://members.fireblades.org/tigerb...tenaciousd.JPG

abtech · 07-31-2003, 5:57 PM

Quote:

ccwilli3 : Quote (luvtolean @ July 31 2003, 1:43pm)I don't get how the guys on a shoestring budget are going to benefit? *

Because everyone in the series pays the same amount and gets the same tires... *No better, no worse.
Unfortunately, that isn't the case, especially with Metzeler/Pirelli involved. I watched 3 seasons of Moose handing the 'good stuff' to the 'Metzeler/Pirelli sponsored' riders and handing 2 year old rubber to everyone else at a higher price. These guys are the scum of the earth when it comes to playing fair. I know they have been floating near the bottom for several years and now finally have some decent tires, but believe me, payback is a bitch for the riders and no one else.

CBRjack · 07-31-2003, 6:11 PM

I think WSB was on the way out even before this. Where have all the top riders gone? Gran Prix is still the pinnacle of the motorcycle racing world and that is where the riders want to be and what the fans want to watch. I think Ducati's domination of the series was the beginning of the end for WSB. Lets not forget the way Honda thanked Colin Edwards after he won the championship last year.

Crash · 07-31-2003, 6:24 PM

WSBK will go away and then might resurface later as something else... but FIM is making some really outragious decisions lately.

ondablade · 08-02-2003, 10:11 AM

I think there's a much longer story running behind this than is apparent, and that as Booth says the harm was done a long time ago. Scuse the length, maybe treat it like a mag article. I'd see it as follows:
Flammini probably made a strategic boob by overly favouring V twins and hence Ducati in the rules. Something strange happened - they regularly changed the rules in the early days of WSB to balance the competitiveness of different types of bikes but this stopped dead around 1995.
This positioned the Japanese manufacturers off side for many years. Honda eventually fought back with the RC 51 and beat Ducati 2/3 (almost 3/3) to show they could do it, and then buggered off. The rest struggled while Flammini repeatedly showed they could not be relied upon to deliver equitable rules.
The FIM and GP (Dorna) had in parallel realised that V4 two strokes were (a) going nowhere technically and (b) threatened by WSB as the primary world series.
They roped in the manufacturers and agreed the Moto GP formula which as a huge spectator draw and driver of technical development has rapidly has sucked in the factories, their development budgets and their sponsorship - to the point where the factories have by this year little need or motivation to compete in a second world championship (WSB) at that level of commitment.
The factories have been intent on dumbing WSB down to private teams and Supersport spec bikes for 18 months now, and have no interest in a second no holds barred factory level world series becuse of the cost.
They last year agreed the restrictor plate rules between themselves, the FIM and Flammini - probably because they would have allowed useful technical development of their production bikes at reasonable cost (they allowed for radically new internal parts)
The success of GP last year and the decline of WSB moved things on though. Flammini (and probably the FIM) having seen this and the tightening budgets worldwide had I think by this year lost confidence in the prospect of strong factory support for WSB next year.
They consequently decided they had nothing to lose and reneged on the restrictor plate deal - by deciding to further push the rules towards production parts based engines and standard tyres in order to further reduce costs and maximise private team participation.
In doing so they also set out to harmonise the rules between the major national series and WSB in order to ease transitions between series. (e.g maximise wild card particiation at WSB rounds, make it easy for national teams to move on to WSB) There probably also were financial incentives for favouring Pirelli.
These steps had however the effect of eliminating most of whatever benefits the factories would have realised through direct (but limited) factory participation under restrictor plate and open tyre rules. (scope for development greatly reduced by production parts rule, no means to pursue tyre/chassis development through their relationships with tyre makers, private tuners probably able to compete on an equal basis with the factories, work done for the restrictor plate rules agreed last year now wasted) They also provided a public excuse for the makers walk away from heavy direct involvement without pissing off the army of WSB supporters out there.
It remains to be seen whether a production based series like this can gain the sort of profile WSB had (but which is now sliding away) without heavy factory support - it seems to me possible, but fairly unlikely. Maybe Flammini bet on the factories swallowing another round of rule changes and staying in but lost.
It could have gone in other directions. If Flammini had not allowed the rules bias for years WSB could conceivably have become the major world championship.
Pressure was probably inevitable for a new set of