Hayden going to Ducati next season?

luvtolean · 08-08-2006, 1:32 PM

What is fundamentally different about the physics now and next year? Did someone excommunicate Newton or something?

Smaller engine? OK.

Tires? You don't think the 990s are harder on tires than the 800s will be? Funny, I know for a fact a GSXR 1000 has a much bigger appetite for tires than a 750 despite the chassis on both, and even weights, being about the same...

As abtech loves to repeat, "you can never be too small or too light for roadracing", but I don't see how next year suddenly there's a paradigm shift where only the midgets win...(though clearly the Pod will be in there fighting with Nick and Rossi.)

Baketech · 08-08-2006, 1:50 PM

Mites will rule in 07.....

phobiaphobe · 08-08-2006, 1:51 PM

Casey Bloody Stonah!

Did anyone else read his interview in TWO?

luvtolean · 08-08-2006, 1:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baketech

Mites will rule in 07.....

WHY?

ccwilli3 · 08-08-2006, 5:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvtolean

What is fundamentally different about the physics now and next year? Did someone excommunicate Newton or something?

Smaller engine? OK.

Tires? You don't think the 990s are harder on tires than the 800s will be? Funny, I know for a fact a GSXR 1000 has a much bigger appetite for tires than a 750 despite the chassis on both, and even weights, being about the same...

As abtech loves to repeat, "you can never be too small or too light for roadracing", but I don't see how next year suddenly there's a paradigm shift where only the midgets win...(though clearly the Pod will be in there fighting with Nick and Rossi.)

Aren't you a ME? I can't remember... Stay with me and interject where needed. Doesn't the fat torque curve of a 990 carry weight better than the lesser, narrower torque curve of a 800?

Riding two up on my 600RR, I can definitely notice the additional weight. Two up on the RC51 twin wasn't really a huge change.

My RSX Type S (say 200HP and 137lbft) really accelerates differently with 4 people in the car, versus just myself. A friend with a GTi (say 200HP and 200lbft) doesn't take as big of a speed hit as I do with 4 people in his car. My analogy is equal peak HP, but more torque. The 800s will have to have lesser torque numbers, even if they grow over time to have equal peak HP numbers.

with pedrosa already having the advantage off the corners with a big fat torque curve, the new 800s will have less grunt so being lighter with less HP, isn't that relationship non-linear? I'm just thinking that the extra 50 lbs nicky will be carrying around will make a noticeable difference in corner exit speed as well as tire life.

nedro · 08-08-2006, 5:51 PM

Sounds valid to me. And as for the 500cc 2 strokes, big guys have the advatage of climbing up over the front wheel when accelerating.

luvtolean · 08-08-2006, 5:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ccwilli3

Aren't you a ME? I can't remember... Stay with me and interject where needed. Doesn't the fat torque curve of a 990 carry weight better than the lesser, narrower torque curve of a 800?

Riding two up on my 600RR, I can definitely notice the additional weight. Two up on the RC51 twin wasn't really a huge change.

Sure. But do only small people win on 600CC supersport bikes? How about 750CC superbikes? When we went to 1000CC superbikes did big guys start winning?

When we went from 500CC GP bikes, with much less torque and HP than the oncoming 800s have, to 990s, did big guys with their ability to muscle the bike start winning over all the midgets?

Let's take it to the extreme. Do the smallest racers always win on 125CC bikes? How about mini-bike races?

I'm not saying light weight doesn't have advantages. It does. But so does being a bigger stronger guy. They're just different advantages, and it's how big and small guys have always raced together.

From the tire front, I have no idea what anyone is trying to argue. The smaller bikes will be easier on tires. Period. The tire compounds will be a bit softer, and probably have a less rigid carcass when optimized for the 800s. They will last just as long as the current stuff, that is to say, the length of a race.

ccwilli3 · 08-08-2006, 6:11 PM

I see. But I will contest that with GP bikes weighing less than a superbike, 50 more pounds is more of a percentage gain of weight addition on a GP bike than it is on a supersport/stock/bike... Don't know if I am explaining this as I intend, but 50 more lbs makes a larger difference on a GP bike, than 50 lbs does on a supersport bike. What is the minimum weight for a V5 GP bike and what will be the minimum weight for the 800s next year?

Another way I think about this; So if 50lbs of ballast, even added at the center of gravity, was added to pedrosa's 800cc bike, he wouldn't suffer tremendously?

ccwilli3 · 08-08-2006, 6:13 PM

I follow you on the tire front. Michelin will def be looking to make their tires last .00001km longer than they need to. They'll wanna make some of the power lost on the straights up in the corners.

I personally think they should let the B teams run restricted 990s next year. The sport is too expensive to continually be changing for anyone other than honda.

luvtolean · 08-08-2006, 6:16 PM

Yes, because it's ballast. When he is riding the bike, he's not able to move the center of gravity as much. (A bigger rider is therefore more able to influence the handling of the bike as tires go off and fuel load reduces) He does not gain muscle/leverage to turn the bike faster, things like this.

There's much more to making a bike go fast than acceleration rates in a straight line.

What is happening to the weight minimums? I don't know.

But on an underpowered 600CC supersport bike, don't you think being 50 pounds lighter would matter more than on a MotoGP bike where often they have to turn down the power with electronics or right wrist adjustments? MotoGP bikes are inherently overpowered, I think carrying a few more pounds matters less than in the lower HP ranks.

The Pod is going to be hauling ass, no doubt. But so will Nicky and Rossi.

Baketech · 08-08-2006, 6:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvtolean

The Pod is going to be hauling ass, no doubt. But so will Nicky and Rossi.

True maybe...but they will have to ride 7-8% "faster" than Podrosa to equal his times...that's significant...

ccwilli3 · 08-08-2006, 6:19 PM

okay, I follow you and I am sufficiently convinced that the pluses and minuses of weight will counter each other.

luvtolean · 08-08-2006, 6:21 PM

Here's another one.

When they pick up the bike and start accelerating, we all know they have to get their asses forward to keep the wheelies down.

Who gets to open the throttle more and first?

phobiaphobe · 08-08-2006, 6:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvtolean

Who gets to open the throttle more and first?

Stona, as he feathers the back brake.

nedro · 08-08-2006, 6:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvtolean

Let's take it to the extreme. Do the smallest racers always win on 125CC bikes?

Well after examining the moto 125 records, I would have to say YES!
By far the biggest, fatest racer to win 125 in the modern era was V. Rossi.

tigerblade · 08-08-2006, 6:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvtolean

Sure. But do only small people win on 600CC supersport bikes? How about 750CC superbikes? When we went to 1000CC superbikes did big guys start winning?

When we went from 500CC GP bikes, with much less torque and HP than the oncoming 800s have, to 990s, did big guys with their ability to muscle the bike start winning over all the midgets?

Let's take it to the extreme. Do the smallest racers always win on 125CC bikes? How about mini-bike races?

I'm not saying light weight doesn't have advantages. It does. But so does being a bigger stronger guy. They're just different advantages, and it's how big and small guys have always raced together.

Baketech · 08-08-2006, 6:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvtolean

Here's another one.

When they pick up the bike and start accelerating, we all know they have to get their asses forward to keep the wheelies down.

Who gets to open the throttle more and first?

....to reach the same terminal velocity....

....and subsequently require 7-8% more braking...

onevcs · 08-08-2006, 6:55 PM

In the early 90's At a race track called "Calafat" in Catalonia, Spain, I was riding a 92 Kawa ZXR750R and had several kinds of 125cc (Cagivas, Gileras, Aprilias, and the like) bikes passed me regularly

. I am not a fast rider by far, but the first few times it happened it really surprised me

that such small bikes could pass a 750cc.

Was it that I was slow

?Naaah, It was the weight difference for sure...

luvtolean · 08-08-2006, 7:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baketech

....to reach the same terminal velocity....

....and subsequently require 7-8% more braking...

7-8%? Don't worry, I won't ask.

Besides, with all that extra wind resistance out of the bubble, I bet Rossi and Hayden can get on the brakes later.

Baketech · 08-08-2006, 7:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvtolean

7-8%? Don't worry, I won't ask.

1/2MV^2...

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvtolean

Besides, with all that extra wind resistance out of the bubble, I bet Rossi and Hayden can get on the brakes later.

That's just it...the HAVE to do that, in order to match the speed of the mites....where does that load go...the tires...