[BIGSAPOTEER]

here are my . AMA, WSBK, Japenese Superbike (Whatever they call it there) should have the same rules. Even though inline 4's are a bit more powerful that v-twins, they are still competitive (WSBK). im not so sure that the ducs are well suited in America due to the tracks being fast corners and long straights. compared to the tracks in WSBK where they are more technical? more breaking, tighter corners etc... i bet that if u put a very good rider (Bayliss, Capi,) on a duc (999R) here in AMA they would be very competitive. i would hate to see a "Suzuki Cup" if Kawi,Yama and HRC decide to withdrawl if they aren't competitive. here is my solution 1.Bring Nicky back to AMA on HRC bikes. 2. Let Ducati/Yamaha/Kawasaki use WSBK bikes in AMA. 3. Make all the rules the same (AMA, WSBK, Japan SS).

[phobiaphobe]

Originally Posted by smoothrideronli

I read a few years back when AMA limits were 750cc for four cylinders and 1000cc for twins an article by...I think Kevin Cameron and he explained why with technology at the time a 750cc pumps as much air as 1000cc twin. I dont remember the details but if this is correct then Ducati would always be at a disadvantage when it comes to power. Four cylinders have gotten better off the corner using the big bang motors so the advantage that twins had there may be dimished or non existent. Just my 2...dammit where is that cent sign...

So why can't Ducati build a 4? WHy does the rest of the world have to change just for them? They're like a spoiled child.

[BIGSAPOTEER]

so do you think that if honda decides to make the RC211 a production bike, bore it to 1000cc and enter it in AMA superbike that it would be fair? a v-5 against inline-4's, no contest!

[Heavy-Dee]

Interesting

[colryn]

Originally Posted by Heavy-Dee

Interesting

There are now several articles where Ducati states that the rules need to be changed to make it fair for everyone. What rules are in question where it is not fair for thier twin machines? I went to the AMA rulebook and tried to scan through to find something but could not find anything that stood out. Help me here...

[Heavy-Dee]

Originally Posted by colryn

There are now several articles where Ducati states that the rules need to be changed to make it fair for everyone. What rules are in question where it is not fair for thier twin machines? I went to the AMA rulebook and tried to scan through to find something but could not find anything that stood out. Help me here...

Well, "unfair" is debatable.

But they want to use a lighter crankshaft for one. Can't remember the others offhand. I think it's bunk personally. I love Ducati and hate to see them pull out, but I'm more disapointed at the "taking my ball and going home" attitude. You build a bike for the rules, not build rules for the bike, IMO. W/in reason of course.

HD

[colryn]

Originally Posted by Heavy-Dee

Well, "unfair" is debatable.

But they want to use a lighter crankshaft for one. Can't remember the others offhand. I think it's bunk personally. I love Ducati and hate to see them pull out, but I'm more disapointed at the "taking my ball and going home" attitude. You build a bike for the rules, not build rules for the bike, IMO. W/in reason of course.

HD

I'm right there with you. I am going to miss Ducati for sure. I just love the sound of that twin going around the track at Daytona. Ther is no question what bike went past you.

As for the attitude Ducati is showing, it does not quite sit right with me. Maybe they will be back in 08 with a better engineered bike that fits with the current rules and wins!!!! I would like to see it. I for one am getting tired of Suzuki winning so much. I would like to see Honda and Kawi make a better showing as well.

[abtech]

Originally Posted by smoothrideronli

I read a few years back when AMA limits were 750cc for four cylinders and 1000cc for twins an article by...I think Kevin Cameron and he explained why with technology at the time a 750cc pumps as much air as 1000cc twin. I dont remember the details but if this is correct then Ducati would always be at a disadvantage when it comes to power. Four cylinders have gotten better off the corner using the big bang motors so the advantage that twins had there may be dimished or non existent. Just my 2...dammit where is that cent sign...

Agreed, but there are so many more variables involved. One of the major issues is that making the twin rev to a competitive level requires an oversquare design. The larger the pistons get with respect to stroke length, the harder it is to fit the engine far enough forward to get the weight distribution on a par with the inlines.

If you look at the engine position in the chassis with respect to the swingarm pivot point and then look at the same items on a contemporary inline, you will see that the "meat" of the engine weight is substantially further back on the twin. This requires a longer swingarm and shorter trail to make the twin turn with the inline and Ducati has gone the gamut on all of these variables without ever reaching a real sweetspot.

One of the so called advantages of the twin is corner exit drive due to the power characteristics of a V twin. Unfortunately, if you want to stay with an inline on the straights, you have to change these power characteristics to provide less low end/off corner grunt and instead move the powerband higher in the rev range.

All of these require making the engine cases and cylinders progressively larger which in turn require the engine to either be tilted (like a Harley) which will allow some latitude in placement front to rear, but at the cost of raising the COG beyond any acceptable factor. The alternative is to lengthen the swingarm and play with the pivot height and placement, but once you extend the swingarm to an acceptable length for off corner drive, you make the wheelbase and overall trail too large for most riders to turn in.

Playing with height can minimize this problem, but Ducati has faced this weight distribution issue since the early 90s and the 916 without any real solution.

[Crash]

Originally Posted by abtech

Agreed, but there are so many more variables involved. One of the major issues is that making the twin rev to a competitive level requires an oversquare design. The larger the pistons get with respect to stroke length, the harder it is to fit the engine far enough forward to get the weight distribution on a par with the inlines.

If you look at the engine position in the chassis with respect to the swingarm pivot point and then look at the same items on a contemporary inline, you will see that the "meat" of the engine weight is substantially further back on the twin. This requires a longer swingarm and shorter trail to make the twin turn with the inline and Ducati has gone the gamut on all of these variables without ever reaching a real sweetspot.

One of the so called advantages of the twin is corner exit drive due to the power characteristics of a V twin. Unfortunately, if you want to stay with an inline on the straights, you have to change these power characteristics to provide less low end/off corner grunt and instead move the powerband higher in the rev range.

All of these require making the engine cases and cylinders progressively larger which in turn require the engine to either be tilted (like a Harley) which will allow some latitude in placement front to rear, but at the cost of raising the COG beyond any acceptable factor. The alternative is to lengthen the swingarm and play with the pivot height and placement, but once you extend the swingarm to an acceptable length for off corner drive, you make the wheelbase and overall trail too large for most riders to turn in.

Playing with height can minimize this problem, but Ducati has faced this weight distribution issue since the early 90s and the 916 without any real solution.

I'm not so sure I know what you said, but I agree 100%....
you always make my brain hurt.


I can only add that jumping from my 05 RC to a 06 ZX-10 is like jumping from a '70 Dodge Charger to a '07 BMW M5. The twin makes me giggle and has more character then I thought a sportbike could ever have. The inline fours offer the predictable power and performance that make them sooooo... blah... Yes, I'd take the Charger over the M5.

[abtech]

Originally Posted by Crash

I'm not so sure I know what you said, but I agree 100%....
you always make my brain hurt.


I can only add that jumping from my 05 RC to a 06 ZX-10 is like jumping from a '70 Dodge Charger to a '07 BMW M5. The twin makes me giggle and has more character then I thought a sportbike could ever have. The inline fours offer the predictable power and performance that make them sooooo... blah... Yes, I'd take the Charger over the M5.

Actually, the RC in stock form is already 2 steps past the latest Ducati in terms of weight distribution due to Honda's never ending quest for centralizing the mass. With their choice of bore vs stroke and the alternative radiator arrangement found on the works bikes, Honda was able to keep nearly 60% of the loaded (with rider) weight on the front wheel, while Ducati struggled to even achieve 50% once you put a rider on board.

No amount of messing with pivot angle or height allowed the 99X series of bikes to achive both quick turn in and good exit drive (let alone mid corner stability).

I always marveled at the shakes and squirms the GP bikes made once they were up to speed on the straights, but the WSB Ducs run like that into, through and out of every corner, let alone the straights. This is because they have tried to resolve their weight distribution and overall turning issues by shortening the trail to the point of no return.

[CBR929RE]

ok Ab so why is the WSBK Ducati competitive and the AMA one not? rules on what can be done to the bike? or is it just that Bayliss really is that good on a Duc?

[ccwilli3]

another issue ducati has is their cost. Cost of rebuilds, etc... Cost to barely make minimum weight... You can't take ANY 1000cc twin and compete with a 1000cc i4. Period. The 999F06 runs about 195 hp. Bayliss had that much on the 998F02 in 2002. 210-220 is rumored on many of the zook and hondas out there. The kwak is no joke either, I don't doubt that it isn't strong too. That is about the limit for a twin. I don't believe they can make it any more oversquare per the rules or they'll be limited in the revs allowed. I could be wrong, but I think anything over 1.5 to 1But no twin, Not a ducati, honda, suzuki or aprilia, not a single one is competitive against a i4.

To make a twin competitive you could allow them to run lower weight, but dang, it's way expensive to cut weight. Losing weight is never cheap! You can make i4s heavier, but that would be at the expense of tire safety at daytona, monza, etc... I think twins in present form, with traction control, etc, etc, could run with any 1000cc twin if allowed a weight advantage (like triples get over 4 and 5 cylinders in GPs), but damn, the point is to make it affordable to race, to encourage racing! There just isn't enough valve area on a head of a twin to flow the air a 4 will get...

[BDA116]

Originally Posted by CBR929RE

ok Ab so why is the WSBK Ducati competitive and the AMA one not? rules on what can be done to the bike? or is it just that Bayliss really is that good on a Duc?

Not Ab, but here you go:
Yes, Bayliss really is that good, and particularly on a Duc.
That said, the lighter crank in and of itself will help the off-corner accelleration slightly. There are just a few little rules that help them out there, but Medley seems to think the bikes would still do well here if it weren't for a limiting factor. I'd be interested to hear if he spills the guts on that once the season wraps up.

Whether they should get extra rules breaks or not, the rulebook should be the same across the board in all series.
Ducati probably could do a better job with getting the bike better according to the rulebook. But they are a small factory with not much money to toss around, so once they've spent the change making the bike right in one series, they don't have much left over to help it out fully in another. That would go the same for all factories, it just hits Ducati a bit harder than the rest.
I'm sure that if they had one rulebook to work off of they could build enough bikes and develop the part to that rulebook to get the bikes competetive.
Honda would benefit from this as well.


I don't really think they deserve a bunch of breaks in the rules, but if the AMA is going to bend over backwards and make all kinds of concessions to allow the Buell XBRR to get its ass kicked in Formula Extreme, then how cna they justify not doing the same for Ducati?

[abtech]

Another aspect in WSB is that the spec tire is developed on the Ducati first. Even though Pirelli is a German company, the Italian marketing arm takes care of "their own" first.

Without this tire development advantage in other (National) series, it's more of a heads up fight and the current Ducati just isn't where the inlines are.

[BIGSAPOTEER]

why doesn'y Ducati compete in Superstock? is the 999R that far off in performance to compete with the Japanese? in street for they are very close to each other (yeah i know the inline 4's make more power), but in magazine comparisons they are very close in time around the track (less than 1/2 a second).

[smoothrideronli]

Originally Posted by phobiaphobe

So why can't Ducati build a 4? WHy does the rest of the world have to change just for them? They're like a spoiled child.

Because it would go away from Ducati tradition...a lot of manufacturers are spoiled when it comes to racing...complain and then quit for a year or two before coming back.

[Heavy-Dee]

Originally Posted by BIGSAPOTEER

why doesn'y Ducati compete in Superstock? is the 999R that far off in performance to compete with the Japanese? in street for they are very close to each other (yeah i know the inline 4's make more power), but in magazine comparisons they are very close in time around the track (less than 1/2 a second).

That's a good question and I don't know the answer. Seems a more affordable way to stay racing, before re-entering SB in 08. I'd also like to see a 749 in SuperSport. But, surely it would get spanked.

As for consessions for the XBRR... That bike isn't *that* bad. How many privateers are finishing below it? Granted, a former MotoGP guy is at the helm, but then again, Hogeson is former MotoGP as well.

HD

[BIGSAPOTEER]

the way i see it, ducati can be very competitve in Superstock, since the talent there isn't as good as Superbike. yeah i know, Ducati sees that as being demoted, but if they win 1 or 2 championship in Superstock, i'm pretty sure the rest of the manufactures would put more effort in Superstock and that alone would cause Superbike to be more competitve, right?

[Heavy-Dee]

Originally Posted by BIGSAPOTEER

the way i see it, ducati can be very competitve in Superstock, since the talent there isn't as good as Superbike. yeah i know, Ducati sees that as being demoted, but if they win 1 or 2 championship in Superstock, i'm pretty sure the rest of the manufactures would put more effort in Superstock and that alone would cause Superbike to be more competitve, right?

The talent is superstock is plenty deep. Don't be fooled.

[BIGSAPOTEER]

with a bayliss/capi in superstock, wouldn't they be very competitve there? i dont think superstock is that deep in talent (maybe the top 3-4 riders). if you look at the race results, ducati is in 1st in WSBK and 1st & 2nd in BSB. i don't know what is going on here in the AMA for ducati. i just hate watching Superbike since its been the Suzuki Cup for the past several years.

[CBR929RE]

good info BDA, thanks