What will honda use as a superbike next year?

Rios929 · 09-26-2003, 11:04 AM

maybe you guys have already talked abou this....but does anyone know for sure what honda is gonna use in ama superbike next year. During the birmingham race, the announcer alluded to them usin the 1000rr. Is this for sure?

HondaGal · 09-26-2003, 11:05 AM

That's what I heard too.

Tank69 · 09-26-2003, 11:07 AM

What is etched in mind is the saying 'with the 2004 rule changes, it could favor the RC51'

WTF is up with that?

Crash · 09-26-2003, 11:13 AM

I've read that there is an issue with the 1000rr tranny and that it's not legeal to run AMA.

Besides the rules will favor twins.

However the new Superstock class is for the big boys. Limited modifications of 1000cc fours. Rules very similar the SuperSport 600cc class. I think that the SuperStock class will be the one to watch as Superbike will become much like current WSBK.

Rios929 · 09-26-2003, 11:15 AM

So why will the rules favor twins? Aren't the rules next year gonna be basically the same as this year? 1000cc inlines and 1000cc twins, or are they gonna restrict the inlines more next year?

CyBeR929 · 09-26-2003, 11:37 AM

My understanding, and the rules aren't set in stone yet, is that the 1000RR tranny won't be illegal, but they won't be able to take advantage of the cassette type gearbox which would make it easy to set up the gear ratios on a track by track basis. From what I understand, both twins and I4's will be able to use one homoligation ratio gearbox (the one that comes stock on the production bike) plus one other homologated (available to the public) gearbox. The rules today allow twins to use as many gearboxes as they want and the I4's to use 2 (one stock, one homologated). So, this rule would help level the playing field.

The big contention as I see it is the air intake restrictions. Basically, twins would be allowed to perform any airbox mod they wanted while the I4's would be restricted. I don't know if this means I4's must use stock intakes, or if it means they will be restricted down even further than stock. This is what has Suzuki up in arms.

In addition to that, there is something about the injectors since Suzy ran a dual stage injector this year that was barely available to the privateers and I don't think it came stock on the bike. The 1000RR I think has these dual injectors, so Honda doesn't really care what the rule is since stock injectors will (assumption here) be allowed.

The rules, as they are proposed now, will favor twins because of the air intake. An engine, in simplistic terms, is just an air pump...the more air you can get through the motor, the more capability you have to go fast all other things being equal.

ReaperAZ · 09-26-2003, 11:38 AM

I believe the tranny issue with the 1000RR wasn't that they can't have them with the cassette style tranny, rather they won't be able to change them. Gearing changes are allowed but not internally. So sprockets and whatnot can be changed but no internal changes. I think that's what I read somewhere.

Dano

Rios929 · 09-26-2003, 11:45 AM

Ah, i see, so they're gonna make it more like WSB was this year, with the air restrictors. I don't really see why they would do this, since the rc51 was able to win a few races here, and the ducs are dominating in wsb(maybe becuase of riders?). I guess it seems to me that the playing field was more even here than it was in wsb this year....

CyBeR929 · 09-26-2003, 11:52 AM

Yeah, I agree...granted, Ducati has some great riders in World Superbike, but the idea of a 999 pulling a G1K on a long straight is a stretch at best...

It just seems odd when the big 4 have killer I4's coming out that they would try to sway the rules more towards the twins. The only people that would help would be Ducati and it would be at the expense of everyone else.

If Ducati would just get their roadgoing desomdeci up and running and homologated, this would be a mute point since everyone would be on 4's at that point....

luvtolean · 09-26-2003, 11:53 AM

One of the things is that 1000's must use stock airboxes. It's also looking like stock TB's. *

As far as dual injectors 'barely available' to privateers....only because of money. *We researched this a bit for a racer friend of mine, who started the year with a relatively large privateer budget, and it isn't hard to get. *

Even you or I (without an AMA license) could call up MoTeC and order a system. *Just be ready to drop some real coin, both in parts and in training and dyno time to get it developed.

tigerblade · 09-26-2003, 1:26 PM

Quote:

luvtolean : Even you or I (without an AMA license) could call up MoTeC and order a system. *Just be ready to drop some real coin, both in parts and in training and dyno time to get it developed.

Yeah, like $20-$30K, isn't it? That may not be accurate, just what I read somewhere.

Baketech · 09-26-2003, 1:59 PM

Silly question.....but can someone educate us unwashed concerning this 'dual stage' injection?

Are you talking about a setup like the 600RR or something different?

Thanks

luvtolean · 09-26-2003, 2:02 PM

Quote:

tigerblade : Quote (luvtolean @ Sep. 26 2003, 10:53am)Even you or I (without an AMA license) could call up MoTeC and order a system. *Just be ready to drop some real coin, both in parts and in training and dyno time to get it developed.

Yeah, like $20-$30K, isn't it? *That may not be accurate, just what I read somewhere.
Not even. $5-6k gets you in the door with MoTeC, depending on how much you add it can be more obviously.

I don't know what the 600 looks like, but typically it's like the old Duc set-up, one injector is a shower from up high, the other is down more in the head.

Baketech · 09-26-2003, 2:07 PM

Why is it an issue in Superbike but not 600's....or are all the mfgrs 600's dual stage?

ccwilli3 · 09-26-2003, 2:10 PM

Quote:

CyBeR929 : Yeah, I agree...granted, Ducati has some great riders in World Superbike, but the idea of a 999 pulling a G1K on a long straight is a stretch at best...

One would think, but that happened all day long at Laguna... Hodgson was consistently pulling mladin/yates/lavilla. Laguna doesn't have the longest straight at all, but it was the end of the straight that hodgson/xaus were reeling everyone in, not at corner exit like you'd think. Keep in mind that duc, with the 104mm bore revs WAY high! LIke 13500 or 14000 rpm or something, its SPINS high! Before you say the I4 WSBK motors were weaker, amasuperbike.com interviewed Mladin and he said the WSBK bike he has that weekend had more motor, even WITH the restrictors... So as dominating as he was in AMA this year, a lot of it was the rider. And if a basically year old RC51 with no updates since last year from WSBK can pull the zooks at BIR, daytona, RA, surely a bleeding edge WSBK spec 999R can...

Interesting for sure... The ama needs to stop 'effing' around and make the rules concrete and stick to it for SEVERAL years. The stuff can't change every year! The teams won't have it, and its keeping people away...

ccwilli3 · 09-26-2003, 2:11 PM

oh, and on amasuperbike, someone (I forget who) had speculated that they would run the RC51 at first and phase into the 1000RR. Like Zemke would run the RR from the first race with Ben and whoever on the RC51, then as it developed, they would both migrate to it at seperate times during the year...

I could see that happening, I could also see them not running the RC51 at all...

ccwilli3 · 09-26-2003, 2:13 PM

Quote:

Baketech : Why is it an issue in Superbike but not 600's....or are all the mfgrs 600's dual stage?

because in supersport, its not an issue that one suzuki team has it, and the other doesn't...

They aren't allowed those mods in the first place. They have to keep the injectors/TBs as they came stock...

Baketech · 09-26-2003, 2:16 PM

Quote:

ccwilli3 : because in supersport, its not an issue that one suzuki team has it, and the other doesn't...

They aren't allowed those mods in the first place. *They have to keep the injectors/TBs as they came stock...

Ahh...got it.....Thanks

luvtolean · 09-26-2003, 2:26 PM

Quote:

ccwilli3 : *Keep in mind that duc, with the 104mm bore revs WAY high! *LIke 13500 or 14000 rpm or something, its SPINS high! *

Jeez, I guess. That gives a stroke around 59mm.

Holeshot · 09-26-2003, 2:52 PM

Nice calculator work.

This is what I found on a quick google scrape:

Quote DUCATI 999R-03. Engine
Displacement 999 cc
BorexStroke 104x58.8 mm
Compression Ratio 12.3

The Testastretta engine fitted in the 999R chassis is especially designed for track use and makes 139 HP at 10.000 RPM with 11 kgm of torque at 8.000 RPM. The 999R is delivered to the customer complete with a kit for track use only. It includes a Termignoni 102 Db exhaust, with horizontal rear half-manifold without catalytic converter and a dedicated electronic control unit, which reduces weight by three kilos (6.6 lbs.) while improving performance.

ccwilli3 · 09-26-2003, 2:57 PM

don't forget too, the desmo valves are forced shut... No chance of float...

All they have to do is keep the engine together at those speeds and if its carrying all of that torque to that high rpm, its gonna be strong! They might need VERY frequent rebuilds, but damn are they strong...

deez · 09-26-2003, 3:08 PM

Instead of what bike they will race next year, how about the good ol AMA just getting their heads out of their asses and cut the nascar restrictor crap, and tell Ducati to play ball with them or don't race at all.

BDA116 · 09-26-2003, 3:25 PM

Honda's superbike platform next year will be a bone stock, off the showroom floor R1 with Honda stickers on it, 'cause it's just so d@mn perfect.

CyBeR929 · 09-26-2003, 3:33 PM

CC,

Good observations...forgot about the Laguna stuff. But can't the Duc's do whatever they want intake-wise? That's pretty much what I'm saying is that if you allow the twins anything, but limit the I4's, it's kinda unfair...even if a restricted SBK spec G1K feels stronger than an AMA spec G1K.

My analogy of a 999 pulling a G1K was more in a 'stock' to 'stock' comparison...straight off the showroom floor.

And honestly, I never knew the Duc's revved that high! I've always thought of the desmoquatro valve actuation as a theoretical limitation on the motor (due to the weight penalty in the valve area), but observation is telling me different. I really thought they were making a mistake with desmo valve actuation on the Desmodeci (which I remember reading early on would rev very high), but that has obviously not turned out to be true.